Sweeny ISD (Texas) Students May Sit During the Pledge

[jaigner]

Check this story out.

What do you think? Is this appropriate? What about teachers?

Is it really necessary to say the pledge at all in schools?

Should Christians participate in the pledge or can they sit and abstain?

 

[Baptist Believer]

One thing I don't understand about the Pledge of Allegiance is the compulsion people have to say the Pledge every day.

Are we that fickle as to suddenly change our allegiances if we don't say the Pledge at least once every 24 hours?

Does the U.S. military require soldiers to recite thei oath of enlistment every day to ensure they won't suddenly decide to commit treason?

When I was growing up in a Baptist church, I was taught that "the Catholics" used "vain repetition" in their prayers and that was wrong because it lost it's meaning through familiarity and the perfunctory nature of the ritual.Yet point out to Baptists that most school kids rattle off the Pledge without a thought in the world and they get very upset and somehow think you're unpatriotic...

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Does the U.S. military require soldiers to recite thei oath of enlistment every day to ensure they won't suddenly decide to commit treason?

We were required to stop and salute, twice a day, for the raising & lowering of thye flag. The only exception to this rule is a ship at sea, where the colors don't come down.

 

[Baptist Believer]

We were required to stop and salute, twice a day, for the raising & lowering of thye flag. The only exception to this rule is a ship at sea, where the colors don't come down.

Good point.

Did you repeat the oath of enlistment on a regular basis as well, or was it simply at the time of enlistment?

 

[jaigner]

When I was growing up in a Baptist church, I was taught that "the Catholics" used "vain repetition" in their prayers and that was wrong because it lost it's meaning through familiarity and the perfunctory nature of the ritual.Yet point out to Baptists that most school kids rattle off the Pledge without a thought in the world and they get very upset and somehow think you're unpatriotic...

This is a good point. Also, your statement about whether we become unpatriotic if we don't say the pledge every day is also good. I think it's nothing short of some weird nationalistic pseudo sacrament.

By the way, I'm a teacher, but I abstain from the pledge, because my allegiance is to God alone. I'm not surprised that a whole country of indoctrinated, unregenerate people will claim this makes me unpatriotic and that I should move to Australia or that I'm a freaking liberal or something, but I am very surprised that evangelical Christians, who claim Christ deserves their supreme allegiance, often will repeat the same trite and spurious arguments.

If you're a Christian and you feel it is permissible to pledge, that is okay with me. It's between you and God. But I don't understand why most of us don't at least take this predicament seriously.

And, as a result, I think all students (and their parents) should have the option of abstaining both from the pledge and standing, which is just another show of homage.

It's a little aside, but I don't believe read prayers, even those read often, are necessarily "vain repetition." A lot of evangelical traditions do this, as well. It's no more vain repetition than a Baptist minister who says "forgive us for our sins and shortcomings" in every prayer or a music leader that says "we're just here to praise you, Jesus."

In fact, since read prayers keep us focused when our minds tend to wander, give a language to those who are struggling, and facilitate whole-group participation, I'd say there is nothing wrong with them.

 

[Alcott]

One thing I don't understand about the Pledge of Allegiance is the compulsion people have to say the Pledge every day.

Are we that fickle as to suddenly change our allegiances if we don't say the Pledge at least once every 24 hours?...

Are we so fickle that we have to listen to and/or sing the National Anthem before every ball game? Are we so fickle that we have to pray before meals? Why not pre-pray over the grub at the grocery store?

 

[Eric B]

My understanding was that the Pledge in schools had really fallen off (since a few decades ago, when all of us were in school), and it was 9-11 with the resultant surge of patriotism afterward that brought it back.
So I guess now with this wearing off, some want to let it slide away again.

 

[jaigner]

My understanding was that the Pledge in schools had really fallen off (since a few decades ago, when all of us were in school), and it was 9-11 with the resultant surge of patriotism afterward that brought it back.
So I guess now with this wearing off, some want to let it slide away again.

Not necessarily, at least not everywhere. It never fell off in the district I work in. And there have always been detractors.

I'm not really worried about schools doing it (although I think it's kinda silly), but I think it's particularly important that not everyone has to do it.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Are we so fickle that we have to listen to and/or sing the National Anthem before every ball game?

The National Anthem is a song about the siege of Fort McHenry during the War of 1812, not a pledge to ally oneself to a flag or republic.

One does not pledge “allegiance”, nor make theological (“one nation under God”) or political (“indivisible, with liberty and justice for all”) assertions in the national anthem.

Are we so fickle that we have to pray before meals.

The custom of praying before meals is an expression of gratitude that, in my opinion, should be specific to the situation and not simply a repetition of “allegiance” to God. I normally don’t make vows to God every time I sit down to a meal with my friends and family.

Why not pre-pray over the grub at the grocery store?

Nothing wrong with thanking God for the bounty of this nation while you shop. In fact, it is an excellent spiritual discipline.

 

[jaigner]

Are we so fickle that we have to listen to and/or sing the National Anthem before every ball game? Are we so fickle that we have to pray before meals? Why not pre-pray over the grub at the grocery store?

I don't know why we have to sing the anthem, either, but that's a different argument.

Praying and pledging allegiance to a flag are two completely different things. If we're fickle in allegiance to our country, who gives a crap. If we're fickle in our relationship with God (which, of course, we are), we need to consistently pray and seek Him.

Of course, we don't really NEED to pray before every meal.

 

[Alcott]

Alright, how do these verses apply to the p of a, or anything else we pledge/swear/affirm/promise?

Matthew 5:37-- "But let your statement be, 'Yes, yes' or 'No, no'; anything beyond these is of evil.
Matthew 6:24-- "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other You cannot serve God and wealth.

 

[jaigner]

Matthew 6:24-- "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other You cannot serve God and wealth.

I particularly like the fact that you brought up the Matthew 6 text. For me, and this is my reasoning behind abstaining, my allegiance lies with God alone. In my conviction, it's not enough to include allegiance to an earthly kingdom under an umbrella of allegiance to God.

 

[Salty]

Matthew 6:24-- "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other You cannot serve God and wealth.

So let me ask you - do you love your mother or your father? According to Matt 6, you are not permitted to love them both !

Of course that is ridicules statement I made, but no more ridicules than not being able to serve God and Country
Mat 6 is talking about when the two masters are have opposite agendas - ie God & the Devil.
Since Mom and Dad have the same Agenda (normally) you can love them both. Likewise, as long as my country (somewhat) is on the same path as God, I can serve them both. Currently in the USA I am permitted to decry activities such as abortion and hom0sexuality that are anti-God -
Thus I do serve my My Lord, my Country, and my family.

 

[jaigner]

Since Mom and Dad have the same Agenda (normally) you can love them both. Likewise, as long as my country (somewhat) is on the same path as God, I can serve them both. Currently in the USA I am permitted to decry activities such as abortion and hom0sexuality that are anti-God -
Thus I do serve my My Lord, my Country, and my family.

My parents don't have my allegiance, either, and I don't make an oath to follow them every morning at school.

And I wonder if you could explain to me when this country actually looked (not said) it was going in the same direction as the Kingdom of God. Because actually, it is a kingdom of the world, which is antithetical to the true Kingdom we serve.

I'm not saying this country isn't a good place to live. I'm not saying that I'm not patriotic. I'm not saying that we haven't done some good things. I'm not saying I don't abide by the laws like the NT says I should. But swearing my allegiance to this country is definitely something I'm not comfortable with. It's something that can become an idol, and it does not stand for Christian values.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Good point.

Did you repeat the oath of enlistment on a regular basis as well, or was it simply at the time of enlistment?

We were constantly repeating oaths, general orders, and those kinds of things in boot camp. Not after.

 

[Jerome]

If we're fickle in allegiance to our country, who gives a crap.

Is this a common sentiment among your fellow public school teachers?

 

[Baptist Believer]

We were constantly repeating oaths, general orders, and those kinds of things in boot camp. Not after.

I'm guessing that you don't forget that stuff after having it drilled into you like that! :laugh:

 

[Salty]

My parents don't have my allegiance, either, and I don't make an oath to follow them every morning at school. ...

Luke 18:20

as a child, did you not say each day, "I Love you"?

But swearing my allegiance to this country is definitely something I'm not comfortable with.

So you are saying you would be unwilling to join the military or hold public office?

 

[Salty]

I'm guessing that you don't forget that stuff after having it drilled into you like that! :laugh:

GO # 1 I will guard everything within the limits of my post and quit my post only when properly relieved

GO# 2 I will obey all my special orders and preform all my duties in a military manner

GO# 3 I will report all violations of my special orders, emergencies, and anything not coered in my instructions to th commander of the relief.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

After entering the tear gas house, and taking the mask off, you had to recite whatever general order you were told to, before they let you out. Same thing in the 55 degree salt water pool. You recite first.