Sympathy for the Arminian, Part 3

[The Biblicist]

Now, I don't quote commentators too often, I prefer to quote scripture, but I thought I would quote Charles Spurgeon for Protestant and others that think that faith is "magical" and that a man has to be supernaturally zapped to have the ability to believe the gospel.

Spurgeon agreed with me that believing the gospel is a very normal and natural thing for men to do;



http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/1031.htm

As you see, Spurgeon said faith in Christ "is like faith in anyone else". It is not some magical, mystical thing as many portray it, it is not something that comes in visions or dreams.

No faith in Christ is like faith in anyone else and is based upon "the same kind of mental processes, upon simple principles and plain matters of fact", and requires no magical or mystical properties for man to believe. In fact Spurgeon implies that such a magical and mystical faith is not "true faith" at all.

So, Spurgeon agreed with me. :thumbs:

It is true that "faith" is something even demons can exercise (James 2:18). So in that sense it is a mental process. However, the mental process is dependent upon the correct "substance" that provides the "hope" of salvation and here is where the mental processes of the fallen nature provide an obstacle to faith. For example, the demons can believe the facts but in regard to their own personal "hope" it is not possible for them to believe in Christ for salvation due to their fallen nature. Their nature IS enmity AGAINST God and IS not subject to God's will and therefore it is the very fallen nature that makes it impossible for them to savingly believe in Christ. Thus it is with the fallen nature of man (Rom. 8:7-8).

It takes a CREATIVE MIRACLE of God to change ENMITY to love and RESISTANCE to submission so that the correct mental processes occur and that is called the new birth and it is done WITH the gospel being used as the CREATIVE WORD by God to call into existence that very "substance" of faith or "the light of knowledge" - 2 Cor. 4:6

 

[Winman]

It is true that "faith" is something even demons can exercise (James 2:18). So in that sense it is a mental process. However, the mental process is dependent upon the correct "substance" that provides the "hope" of salvation and here is where the mental processes of the fallen nature provide an obstacle to faith. For example, the demons can believe the facts but in regard to their own personal "hope" it is not possible for them to believe in Christ for salvation due to their fallen nature. Their nature IS enmity AGAINST God and IS not subject to God's will and therefore it is the very fallen nature that makes it impossible for them to savingly believe in Christ. Thus it is with the fallen nature of man (Rom. 8:7-8).

It takes a CREATIVE MIRACLE of God to change ENMITY to love and RESISTANCE to submission so that the correct mental processes occur and that is called the new birth and it is done WITH the gospel being used as the CREATIVE WORD by God to call into existence that very "substance" of faith or "the light of knowledge" - 2 Cor. 4:6

Baloney. First of all, it says the devils believe in God, not Jesus. That is an important difference.

Second, there is nothing for the devils to believe. There is no promise to the devils that if they believe on Jesus they will be saved. Jesus did not die for the devils, he died for men. So there is no foundation for faith among devils.

And this is why I have said Limited Atonement is such a horrible error. If Christ did not die for every man (100%) then you cannot possibly know that Jesus died for you. You have no foundation for faith.

Oh, you can HOPE he died for you, but you can have no certainty at all. And works do not prove you are saved, the scriptures tell us there will be many tares among the wheat. Tares are almost indistinguishable from wheat.

Just because you believe you are the elect does not make it so, there is such a thing as vain faith, the scriptures themselves show this;

1 Cor 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

The scriptures say if Jesus did not truly rise from the dead, then our faith is vain, and we are still in our sins. Why? Because Jesus had to sprinkle his blood on the mercy seat in heaven for our sins to be washed away.

So, our faith must be founded upon a REALITY. We are trusting that in reality Jesus sprinkled his blood on the mercy seat in heaven to save us. If Jesus did not in reality sprinkle his blood on the mercy seat, then our faith is VAIN, and we will all die in our sins.

Likewise, if Jesus did not die for YOU personally in REALITY, then your faith is VAIN and you will die in your sins.

You could believe a defective parachute is safe and jump out of a plane depending and trusting it to get you to the ground safely, and your faith would be VAIN, you will fall to your death.

If Limited Atonement is true, then you have no idea if Jesus died for you, so you have no firm foundation for your faith. And if in fact he did not die for you personally, then your faith is VAIN and you are destined to perish.

 

[Jacob_Elliott]

Well, God said men DO have free will;

Lev 1:1 And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.
4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.

God speaking to Moses said that "any man of you" referring to the Jews could bring an offerning to him, and they were to do it of their "own voluntary will".

Now, that is FREE WILL my friend, from the mouth of God himself. So don't tell me man does not have free will.

And note also that God said it would be accepted as an atonement for him.

So, you can believe your Reformed philosophy, or you can believe the word of God, which is it?

Voluntary will is not the same as free. You cannot involuntarily call upon the name of The Lord and believe, how you came to that desicion is what we are discussing. God preordained that you would voluntarily call upon him.

 

[Winman]

Voluntary will is not the same as free. You cannot involuntarily call upon the name of The Lord and believe, how you came to that desicion is what we are discussing. God preordained that you would voluntarily call upon him.

I would strongly disagree, "voluntary will" is absolutely free will.

You just can't change the definitions of words to suit you.

vol·un·tar·y
ˈvälənˌterē/Submit
adjective
1.
done, given, or acting of one's own free will.
"we are funded by voluntary contributions"
synonyms: optional, discretionary, elective, noncompulsory, volitional; More

When your theology tells you that words do not mean what you have always known them to mean, it is time to get up and walk out, unless you desire to be deceived.

 

[Winman]

Voluntary will is not the same as free. You cannot involuntarily call upon the name of The Lord and believe, how you came to that desicion is what we are discussing. God preordained that you would voluntarily call upon him.

And if God determined you would call on Jesus, that is not voluntary.

You believe a direct contradiction that cannot possibly be truth.

 

[The Biblicist]

Baloney. First of all, it says the devils believe in God, not Jesus. That is an important difference.

Are you so ignorant of scriptures that you do not know or remember it was demons who consistently confessed and believed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God???

Mt 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

Mr 3:11 And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God.

Lu 4:41 And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.

 

[The Biblicist]

Second, there is nothing for the devils to believe. There is no promise to the devils if they believe on Jesus they will be saved. Jesus did not die for the devils, he died for men. So there is no foundation for faith among devils.

Are you forgetting that it is you that defined "faith" as mere "MENTAL PROCESSES" and the Scriptures clearly reveal that the demons possess such mental processes as their confessions reveal?

And this is why I have said Limited Atonement is such a horrible error. If Christ did not die for every man (100%) then you cannot possibly know that Jesus died for you. You have no foundation for faith.

This has been proved not only to be completely false but the very reverse is true. You cannot possibly know that Christ died for you by mere profession as mere mental processes professed do not save anyone as YOU ADMIT BY DEAD AND VAIN FAITH in your very next paragraph below. Salvation is a supernatural CHANGE so that you are a NEW CREATURE and thus different than what you used to be. You view sin differently and must if you are saved as salvation is from sin (Mt. 1:20). You EXPERIENCE "power" and 'assurance" from within as the Spirit bears witness with your spirit. Salvation bears immediate fruits that are knowable and distinguished from your past life and attitude toward sin.

You are speaking foolishly and ignorantly and is that is self-evident as you are completely ignorant of the true NECESSARY and ESSENTIAL manifestations of salvation and it is not mere mental processes as the demons are capable of that.

 

[Winman]

Are you forgetting that it is you that defined "faith" as mere "MENTAL PROCESSES" and the Scriptures clearly reveal that the demons possess such mental processes as their confessions reveal?

Faith involves the emotions as well, we tend to trust those most close to us.

But you are not getting it, there is no promise to devils. There is nothing to lean upon, nothing to depend upon. Trust is leaning or depending on a promise.

This has been proved not only to be completely false but the very reverse is true. You cannot possibly know that Christ died for you by mere profession as mere mental processes professed do not save anyone as YOU ADMIT BY DEAD AND VAIN FAITH in your very next paragraph below. Salvation is a supernatural CHANGE so that you are a NEW CREATURE and thus different than what you used to be. You view sin differently and must if you are saved as salvation is from sin (Mt. 1:20). You EXPERIENCE "power" and 'assurance" from within as the Spirit bears witness with your spirit. Salvation bears immediate fruits that are knowable and distinguished from your past life and attitude toward sin.

You are speaking foolishly and ignorantly and is that is self-evident as you are completely ignorant of the true NECESSARY and ESSENTIAL manifestations of salvation and it is not mere mental processes as the demons are capable of that.

I know Jesus died for me because the word of God repeatedly says Jesus died for all men. The scriptures also promise me that if I believe Jesus died for my sins and rose from the dead I shall be saved.

I am leaning upon, depending upon a direct promise of scripture. That is what faith is.

You have no such promise, you do not know whom Jesus died for and for whom he did not. The best you can do is HOPE he died for you. Good luck with that. You cannot depend upon feelings and mystical experience, that is exactly what Spurgeon wrote about in that article I showed. And Spurgeon was correct here.

And truth be told, if your view (Limited Atonement) is correct, your faith and mine could be vain, there is no way to know until we die. But if Jesus did not die for you and me personally, then our faith is vain.

Believing you are elect does not make it so. You seem unable to understand this.

 

[Rippon]

I thought I would quote Charles Spurgeon ...

for Winman and others who think that faith is a very normal and natural thing for people in their unregenerate state to have --that they think everyone has the ability to believe the gospel.

As you see, Spurgeon said faith in Christ

is "the gift of God and the work of the Holy Spirit."

Here is Spurgeon preaching on Faith and Repentance 3/5/1871:

"This faith,wherever it exists is in every case,without exception,the gift of God and the work of the Holy Spirit. Never yet did a man believe in Jesus with the faith here intended,except the Holy Spirit led him to do so. He has wrought all our works in us, and our faith too. Faith is too celestial a grace to spring up in human nature till it is renewed:Faith is in every believer 'the gift of God' "

So, Spurgeon agreed with me. :thumbs:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

for Winman and others who think that faith is a very normal and natural thing for people in their unregenerate state to have --that they think everyone has the ability to believe the gospel.



is "the gift of God and the work of the Holy Spirit."

Here is Spurgeon preaching on Faith and Repentance 3/5/1871:

"This faith,wherever it exists is in every case,without exception,the gift of God and the work of the Holy Spirit. Never yet did a man believe in Jesus with the faith here intended,except the Holy Spirit led him to do so. He has wrought all our works in us, and our faith too. Faith is too celestial a grace to spring up in human nature till it is renewed:Faith is in every believer 'the gift of God' "

:laugh: show off!:tongue3:

YES but did CALVIN? :laugh:

 

[Iconoclast]

Winman

Baloney.

Well maybe it is fried baloney on your part Winman:laugh: When you post a link to Spurgeon it might serve you well to read the complete link first:laugh: then you might have read this:

"How can I get the faith which gives me possession of Christ Jesus, and brings me salvation?" Our text is the ready answer, practically a complete answer; not doctrinally or theologically complete, but practically perfect.

"Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

"But faith is the work of the Holy Spirit in the soul is it not?" Certainly. "And it is given by the Spirit to God's own chosen?" Assuredly;

yet, nevertheless, it was not necessary for the apostle to mention those facts here.

Some persons are always for having a whole system of theology in every sermon,

but it is not needful that they should be gratified. Paul is clear enough about the work of the Spirit in other places, and it is not needful that he should introduce that subject into every line he writes.



It was practically unnecessary for him to mention that subject in the present instance, and, therefore, he did not do so. It would sometimes puzzle rather than instruct an enquirer if we were to go into the full details of a matter.


For instance, if I am thirsty, how shall I quench my thirst? By a draught of water. But in what way can I obtain water? It quite suffices for practical purposes for you to tell me to go to the tap or the fountain. There is no need to explain to me before I drink that the water is supplied by a company, and forced to the spilt by sundry machines, having been first extracted from the great fountains beneath by artesian wells, or drawn from the river at Thames Ditton. Nor would it be needful in answer to my question to trace the river to the clouds, and to treat upon the formation of vapor by the skill and wisdom of God. Practically, to the thirsty man all you want to say is, "There's the water, drink

This undermines your opposition to truth.

First of all, it says the devils believe in God, not Jesus. That is an important difference.

Second, there is nothing for the devils to believe. There is no promise to the devils that if they believe on Jesus they will be saved. Jesus did not die for the devils, he died for men. So there is no foundation for faith among devils.

This shows the Particular nature of the atonement;
13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham


The elect...He did not take upon himself angels,or the seed of Adam.
no he took upon himself the children given to Him...the seed of Abraham,the elect.

And this is why I have said Limited Atonement is such a horrible error

.

You say what you say because you deny what is written right here.


1 Cor 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

 

[Winman]

Icon, You cannot seem to differentiate between what God does and what man does.

God's word is supernatural. Holy men as they were inspired by the Holy Spirit wrote scripture. And scripture is living and powerful and can pierce the very heart of man, convicting the hardest man of his sin, and enlightening and teaching him how to be saved.

God's word is absolutely supernatural.

But believing is man's duty and is quite normal. This is what Spurgeon is saying. Man has no natural knowledge of spiritual matters, but man can learn spiritual matters by listening to and learning from God's word. Man can learn he is a sinner, and the wages of sin is death. Man can learn that Jesus is the Son of God who became flesh and lived under the law, went to the cross and died for our sins, and rose from the dead, and that if we personally trust Jesus he will save us.

We have the God-given ability to reason. We can take these facts supernaturally revealed to us through God's word and then trust them. That is what Spurgeon is saying. Our believing is not supernatural, it is quite ordinary.

Now, once we believe, God regenerates us as he promised. This is absolutely a supernatural work that only God can perform.

But believing is quite normal, and this is exactly what Spurgeon showed.

 

[Protestant]

But believing is man's duty

Yes, believing upon Jesus is man’s duty.

We know this is so because it is through the revelation of God’s preceptive will of command that man becomes obligated to his Creator for the obedience rightly due Him.

Whatever the Lord commands is good, righteous, holy and just.

"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent"​

and is quite normal.

Believing lies is quite normal for man.

God is not a man, that he should lie

(Translation: all men are liars.)​

Believing upon Jesus is unnatural and requires the supernatural gracious regeneration of the Holy Spirit.

“no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.”​

Scripture refutes you at every turn.

Winman, stop believing the lie and come to the truth.

It is the truth which sets free!

 

[Winman]

Yes, believing upon Jesus is man’s duty.

We know this is so because it is through the revelation of God’s preceptive will of command that man becomes obligated to his Creator for the obedience rightly due Him.

Whatever the Lord commands is good, righteous, holy and just.

"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent"​

Believing lies is quite normal for man.

God is not a man, that he should lie

(Translation: all men are liars.)​

Believing upon Jesus is unnatural and requires the supernatural gracious regeneration of the Holy Spirit.

“no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.”​

Scripture refutes you at every turn.

Winman, stop believing the lie and come to the truth.

It is the truth which sets free!

Oh brother! You sound like the little lady in the movie Poltergeist;

Go into the light! Go into the light!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4Dc-J_mD7c

You guys are nothing but a bunch of mystics.

 

[Protestant]

Oh brother! You sound like the little lady in the movie Poltergeist;

Go into the light! Go into the light!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4Dc-J_mD7c

You guys are nothing but a bunch of mystics.

"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved."​

The Light we preach is not Satan -- who has the power to transform himself into an angel of light.

We preach Jesus Christ, the Light of the World......

He that followeth Jesus shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

"Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.

While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light."​

Winman, be not afraid of the Light of Christ.

"Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid."

"If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed."​

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved."​

The Light we preach is not Satan -- who has the power to transform himself into an angel of light.

We preach Jesus Christ, the Light of the World......

He that followeth Jesus shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

"Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.

While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light."​

Winman, be not afraid of the Light of Christ.

"Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid."

"If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed."​

The old motto is post tenebras lux---"after darkness, light."