Sympathy for the Arminian

[Herald]

Well, it got us to the moon and cured polio, but it also enabled us to destroy the entire planet with the push of a mere button...so, it's at least effective. "Reason"...is a gift from God bestowed upon mankind that is not to be scoffed at. I do not think that you glean meaningful knowledge from ill-reasoned books written by idiots, but rather intelligently written books written by men possessed of a high level of intelligence, knowledge and a capacity for reason. That is a gift of God, and "every good gift and every perfect gift is from above and cometh down from the father of lights."

Reason is a gift from God, but sinful man is fallen in all his faculties. His reason is flawed. Even among believers reason is finite. We lack perfect knowledge. When it comes to understanding God's truth we are dependent on the Bible. We stray from Scripture to our own peril.

I don't castigate 2 Samuel 12:23 as so very useless as it appears that you do. I find it more valuable than all that! But Waldron is right to appeal to God's character in his answer. That is what I also would appeal to. I appeal to God's character as well.

You are putting words in my mouth. I do not castigate 2 Samuel 12:23. I rightly point out that David was talking about going to the grave to join with his deceased son, not heaven. Nothing in the immediate context of 2 Samuel 12 indicates David was referencing heaven.

do not think that it is silent, personally. I believe one can glean from Scripture an absolute and final answer to that question...but I do not believe that if one assumes "Original Guilt" that that is possible. But, I do not believe the Scriptures teach "Original Guilt" either, (as you obviously do) so, your counsel would differ from mine in that regard.

Thank you for admitting your disagreement with original sin, but I think that is obvious by your argumentation. That is an important point to bring out because it makes much of our dialog unnecessary. With such a fundamental theological difference there can be no "meeting of the minds".

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You would assume that after 4 Centuries that the Reformed movement could come up with a better answer than "We dont know"

Frankly the world has gotten real tired of lazy answer theology. really, what hope do you have to offer millions of people downtrodden with no meaning anymore in their lives?

Let me just clue you in because you appear to be a nice fellow, stuck in a rut. For most people in the world the question is not, "Is there life on the other side death?"
It is rather, "Is there life on THIS SIDE of death?"

The world does not need to believe in and support your dogmas & giant 'gathering place' churches. It doesn't need your words of hell. It needs your promise of heaven. And that will be achieved by showing bountiful love and compassion. And in order to do that, your going to have to get out of your pulpit & touch the flesh of God.

Mark 10:42-45

English Standard Version (ESV)

42 And Jesus called them to him and said to them, “You know that those who are considered rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. 43 But it shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant,[a] 44 and whoever would be first among you must be slave of all. 45 For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

 

[SovereignMercy]

Don't the Rolling Stones have a song by the title of this thread?

 

[Herald]

You would assume that after 4 Centuries that the Reformed movement could come up with a better answer than "We dont know"

So, when the Bible does not provide a clear teaching on a subject we are supposed to make one up just to satisfy a person's desire to have an answer?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

So, when the Bible does not provide a clear teaching on a subject we are supposed to make one up just to satisfy a person's desire to have an answer?

Are you aware that Albert Mohler has addressed this? So have others. I think you will agree that Mohler is a pretty intelligent guy, well prepared for every eventuality & doesnt like being caught flat footed. I could even give you a pretty good redress but .... if you cant, oh well.

This is comparable to saying that we really dont know if you are saved or not until you die & go to one of the H places....then we will know. Im sorry, but that answer does not cut it.

 

[DrJamesAch]

Don't the Rolling Stones have a song by the title of this thread?

Haha.

There's a real song about Calvie's though.

I Think My Wife's A Calvinist

 

[Inspector Javert]

So, when the Bible does not provide a clear teaching on a subject we are supposed to make one up just to satisfy a person's desire to have an answer?

No...we're supposed to presume that in all likelihood, our Almighty and loving God has not left us completely in the dark (and that's ALL you're offering anyone if you're honest with yourself) on such an immediate, pressing and obvious question.

 

[Inspector Javert]

Reason is a gift from God, but sinful man is fallen in all his faculties. His reason is flawed

.
That's a cute little given amongst many...but it's patently un-Scriptural. The Apostle Paul destroys this thinking in Romans chapter 2. But, that is probably another discussion. I have no problem with admitting some "noetic effects" of sin....but to destroy all human faculty of reason is an insult to the Imago-Dei.

Even among believers reason is finite. We lack perfect knowledge

.
Perfectionist Fallacy.....this is akin to you saying that "Our reason isn't PERFECT therefore it's useless." That's fallacious, you are right that it isn't perfect, but it isn't useless....that's why I mentioned the Moon, Polio AND NUKES...LOL....you must think that I didn't see this rather elementary objection coming!

Dude, I saw it coming from MILES away.

When it comes to understanding God's truth we are dependent on the Bible. We stray from Scripture to our own peril.

duh.

You are putting words in my mouth. I do not castigate 2 Samuel 12:23. I rightly point out that David was talking about going to the grave to join with his deceased son, not heaven. Nothing in the immediate context of 2 Samuel 12 indicates David was referencing heaven

.
I didn't mean to do any such thing...you may indeed be correct on that subject...I haven't tortured it enough to get a detailed response.

Thank you for admitting your disagreement with original sin, but I think that is obvious by your argumentation

.
Translation:
Thank you for admitting that you are a "heretic":
In your mind, sir, I am...and I don't care a fig if you or the 1689 think so.

That is an important point to bring out because it makes much of our dialog unnecessary. With such a fundamental theological difference there can be no "meeting of the minds".

There could actually....but, I am not sure that you would be up to it.

You would think me "liberal"...only...I am FAAAARR from it. So, you are ill-equipped to deal with thinking such as mine, after all.....you're the one who thinks that John 3:16 has anything to do with FAIRNESS!!!!

And that's a sheerly STUPID idea...AS IF!!!:laugh::laugh:

 

[Rippon]

IJ,your conduct is so wrong. Regardless of your theology,your behavior is quite the turn-off.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

IJ,your conduct is so wrong. Regardless of your theology,your behavior is quite the turn-off.

OK Rippon, please indicate what portion of his commentary was such a turn off & so wrong.

Is it that you consider it disrespectful or do you find it theologically inappropriate or both? Obviously it rubs you the wrong way so Id like to take the time to dismantle it so we can have clarity. Please advise.

 

[Herald]

Are you aware that Albert Mohler has addressed this? So have others. I think you will agree that Mohler is a pretty intelligent guy, well prepared for every eventuality & doesnt like being caught flat footed. I could even give you a pretty good redress but .... if you cant, oh well.

This is comparable to saying that we really dont know if you are saved or not until you die & go to one of the H places....then we will know. Im sorry, but that answer does not cut it.

I will just drop it. I like you, EWF, and realize we view this issue differently. Peace.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I will just drop it. I like you, EWF, and realize we view this issue differently. Peace.

No problem Brother. If you ever get back to Jersey, let me know....maybe we will do some Calandras & Coffee!:thumbs:

 

[Inspector Javert]

IJ,your conduct is so wrong. Regardless of your theology,your behavior is quite the turn-off.

There is absolutely NOTHING in "my behavior" which should be, or is, a "turn-off", not to any reasonable man anyway. And it has EVERYTHING to do with my "Theology".....I call you as man to man a liar, because I believe in absolutely no uncertain terms that it has EVERYTHING to do with "my Theology". If I agreed with you.....you would have absolutely no argument with my "behavior" at all.

What bothers you....Rippon is a man who is so bold as to say something like:
"I don't care a fig for the 1689 L.B.C."

I understand full well that that type of confidence and boldness enrages people like you, but, I have treated no one on here un-fairly, un-charitably, or falsely.
I have not been directly rude to anyone, nor disingenuous with anyone, nor do I speak cryptically nor falsely.

I understand that it spins you into a dimension of personal rage that some are not intimidated by, nor respectful of Rippon's opinion than the man in the moon....
But, there it is...

One can learn so MUCH more from a man's enemies than he can from who his "friends" are. Friends are false....enemies are honest.
Lemme explain something to you Mr. Rippon....the WORSE you think of me....the CLOSER to the will of God I think I truly am.

It would sadden me if you were to think highly of me.

You are one such person that I would wish you thought the WORST of....
I desire the praise of neither YOU nor the man of the century John Calvin.

I would consider praise from you a DIRECT and PERSONAL insult.

 

[Herald]

That's a cute little given amongst many...but it's patently un-Scriptural. The Apostle Paul destroys this thinking in Romans chapter 2. But, that is probably another discussion. I have no problem with admitting some "noetic effects" of sin....but to destroy all human faculty of reason is an insult to the Imago-Dei.

Rom. 8:7 and 1 Cor. 2:14 teach that the sinner cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God. That is what I was getting at. I am not saying that human reason cannot comprehend the Pythagorean theorem. I am focusing my comments on spiritual knowledge and where spiritual knowledge derives its authority. The Bible is the sole authority for all matters of faith and practice. Period. The Holy Spirit brings to our understanding the words of Scripture. Without the Spirit there is no way we could appropriate Scripture's truth.

Regarding the eternal disposition of infants dying in infancy and all others who are not able to understand the ordinary means of salvation (the Gospel), our peace over the issue is found in Scripture. Some people, like yourself, believe Scripture speaks definitively on the issue. I do not.

Perfectionist Fallacy.....this is akin to you saying that "Our reason isn't PERFECT therefore it's useless." That's fallacious, you are right that it isn't perfect, but it isn't useless....that's why I mentioned the Moon, Polio AND NUKES...LOL....you must think that I didn't see this rather elementary objection coming!

Dude, I saw it coming from MILES away.

I have already answered this in the previous paragraph.

duh.

You display amazing rhetorical skills.

Translation:
Thank you for admitting that you are a "heretic":
In your mind, sir, I am...and I don't care a fig if you or the 1689 think so.

Did someone vomit in your your Wheaties this morning? When does disagreement turn into casting the H-bomb? All I said was that the way you argue is consistent with someone who does not believe in original sin.

There could actually....but, I am not sure that you would be up to it.

You would think me "liberal"...only...I am FAAAARR from it. So, you are ill-equipped to deal with thinking such as mine, after all.....you're the one who thinks that John 3:16 has anything to do with FAIRNESS!!!!

And that's a sheerly STUPID idea...AS IF!!!

Oh, please. You are acting like the back end of donkey, right below the tail.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

There is absolutely NOTHING in "my behavior" which should be, or is, a "turn-off", not to any reasonable man anyway. And it has EVERYTHING to do with my "Theology".....I call you as man to man a liar, because I believe in absolutely no uncertain terms that it has EVERYTHING to do with "my Theology". If I agreed with you.....you would have absolutely no argument with my "behavior" at all.

What bothers you....Rippon is a man who is so bold as to say something like:
"I don't care a fig for the 1689 L.B.C."

I understand full well that that type of confidence and boldness enrages people like you, but, I have treated no one on here un-fairly, un-charitably, or falsely.
I have not been directly rude to anyone, nor disingenuous with anyone, nor do I speak cryptically nor falsely.

I understand that it spins you into a dimension of personal rage that some are not intimidated by, nor respectful of Rippon's opinion than the man in the moon....
But, there it is...

One can learn so MUCH more from a man's enemies than he can from who his "friends" are. Friends are false....enemies are honest.
Lemme explain something to you Mr. Rippon....the WORSE you think of me....the CLOSER to the will of God I think I truly am.

It would sadden me if you were to think highly of me.

You are one such person that I would wish you thought the WORST of....
I desire the praise of neither YOU nor the man of the century John Calvin.

I would consider praise from you a DIRECT and PERSONAL insult.

Calm down & reset.

 

[Inspector Javert]

Oh, please. You are acting like the back end of donkey, right below the tail

Yes, I am....and a better man than you or I has just exhorted me on the issue. But so are you, and this statement is itself, amongst these other childish statements equally as condemnable.

You display amazing rhetorical skills.
Did someone vomit in your your Wheaties this morning?

These gems of Christ-like exhortation from you are equally as profitable as any un-productive statements I will freely admit to. A better man than I have been has extolled me on some of my statements. So, do you freely admit that these statements of yours are also equally as ill-advised?

 

[Herald]

Yes, I am....and a better man than you or I has just exhorted me on the issue. But so are you, and this statement is itself, amongst these other childish statements equally as condemnable.

These gems of Christ-like exhortation from you are equally as profitable as any un-productive statements I will freely admit to. A better man than I have been has extolled me on some of my statements. So, do you freely admit that these statements of yours are also equally as ill-advised?

Proverbs 26:4

fini

 

[Protestant]

Welcome to the BB....Brother...Benjamin Keach:thumbs::thumbs:
Henry Mahan always reverence"s Jesus and His word.He has many sermons on sermonaudio.com . Looking forward to your input.

Thanks so much for the kind words! I, too, am an iconoclast. <smile> TTYL

 

[Van]

Van :"One of the odd realities of Calvinism is it is based on Biblical truth." (10/25/2011)

Folks pay no attention to any representation of my views made by Calvinists. They edit scripture to reverse what scripture says, and they edit and copy partial quotes to misrepresent what I said. Deception and deceit are their hallmarks. I said Calvinism started with biblical truth, but then extrapolated it into fallacy, or some such.

 

[Van]

Calvinism teaches you were saved or damned from all eternity for all eternity and nothing you can do will alter the predestined outcome of your or your loved ones lives. Hence the doctrines of futility.

Van,

You know this statement is not completely accurate.

ALL are damned - for ALL have sinned.

It is true that there is NOTHING YOU can do that will alter that outcome.

However:

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

If you can demonstrate some human volition in that passage then your doing the same as you did in John 6 - adding to the Scripture because your view obliges the Scripture conform to your view. Adding such would completely obliterate that all salvation, from the first impulse of Godly conviction to the glory appointed to the believer's eternity, is the result of God's unmerited favor.

1) I believe the statement is completely true, therefore your effort at mindreading is specious.

2) According to Calvinism God choose some for salvation and left the rest unsaved before anyone had sinned. Thus according to Calvinism the unsaved were damned from all eternity.

3) Did I say put human volition into Ephesians 2:5, or did I say it does not depend on the man that wills but upon God who has mercy, and therefore God alone puts those of His choosing in Christ where they are made alive. Why do you continue to misrepresent my view??

4) I did not rip John 6:29 out of context, my view is in accordance with the context, Jesus was asked what we must do, referring to what men must do, and Jesus answered believe in Me. Thus the subjective genitive, is translated ambiguously by the NASB, but accurately and the same verse is translated unambiguously and accurately in the NET which reads the deeds (work) God requires. Your debate is with Dr. Dan Wallace, not with me.

5) While in the past, the rule of thumb for translating genitives is to put "of" + the genitive, is still used today, many translations are using a better understanding of the Greek to present God's word with the clarity intended.

6) Why not try addressing my actual view, rather than strawmen of your own construction. Why are you hiding the truth with obfuscation?

Bottom line, there is no actual support for the first four points of Calvinism anywhere in scripture. None, Zip Nada. Instead, the man-made doctrines turn the gospel into the doctrines of futility.