Featured Sympathy for the Arminian

Welcome to the BB....Brother...Benjamin Keach:thumbs::thumbs:
Henry Mahan always reverence"s Jesus and His word.He has many sermons on sermonaudio.com . Looking forward to your input.

 

I know nothing of Mahan's ministry, but I was on a ship named the USS Mahan DDG-42. Anyway, I had not seen that name in years. I will look up some of his works. Sounds like a good read.

 

Flotsam in the river:laugh:

 

Yes and we have the Edna Mahan women's prison right here in Hunterdon County NJ...:tonofbricks:

 

Ha ha ha...I'm gonna like you I'm thinking! I'm more inclined to like JH Oliphant...but then in Tom's world view that makes me a hyper Calvinist. Today I'm stuck on Sinclair Ferguson.

 

:thumbs: :thumbs:It appears to me, by this O.P. and some of the responses I have seen from some Calvinists on this thread that they either simply can't or don't distinguish between "justice" and "fairness".

"Red-Herring"...is precisely what this is.

This O.P. is entirely based on some fictitious Arms. who are complaining about "fairness". I think one would be hard-pressed to find any non-Calvist on this board or any respectable one anywhere, who uses the term "fair" in reference to God, nor who can't distinguish between "fair" (which God isn't) and "Just" (which God is). The difference is manifold.

"After all, he isn't a tame lion"
(C.S. Lewis)

 

I perfer Anti Calvinists to be both honest and discriptive.

 

No He is a hurricane, a Forrest fire, a run away flood, an earth quake!

 

I'm sitting here at Bob Evans this morning, enjoying my Big Egg Breakfast, while perusing the BB. I can't speak for the motivation behind the OP but "fairness" has very much to do with the Arminian view of salvation (as I explained earlier in this thread). If God desires all men to be saved then it is only fair that He act consistent with His desire. That means either making sure everyone hears the gospel or exempting those who do not. This is how Arminians can say the tribal person who has never heard the gospel will still go to heaven. This is why the extreme logical conclusion of Arminianism is either Open Theism or Universalism. Romans 10:9, 10 has an asterisk in the Arminian's Bible.

 

Lol...now you consider me an Arminian.....oh that's rich

 

No. I consider you a man who endured a terrible tragedy in his life; a tragedy that I would wish on no one. My personal view of infants dying in infancy, and those who are impaired and not able to believe the Gospel notwithstanding (see my prior post where I explained that), I believe your view of God saving a person who has not heard the Gospel is contrary to Scripture. I cannot help but believe your view has been shaped by your experience. Does that make you an Arminian? No. Why? Because you affirm the doctrines of grace. I just think the part of your theology we are discussing is inconsistent with the doctrines of grace.

P.S. I will quote chapter 10 of the 1689 LBC:

The framers of the Confession wrestled with the issue of infants dying in infancy and those individuals who had cognitive/mental disorders that prevented them from hearing the Gospel. Basically they threw themselves upon the mercy of God and their knowledge that God has chosen His elect from eternity. Those who do not fall into those two categories (infants and incapable) are bound to believe the Gospel. That God is not obligated to expose them to the Gospel is irrelevant. After all, God is not fair in the sense that men define fairness. God is not under obligation to His creation.

 

And of course...my sister who, through no fault of her own, because she was both nmentally and physically handicapped...what is Gods pronouncement on her since He is under no obligation to save her?

I tell you in all deference friend that I could hate...HATE God for His way. HOWEVER I do not..I will not be robbed of my humanity. I still will operate as a superior being by enriching my mind and my soul. God can put me in hell but he cannot take my heart & soul & humanity...that is what I myself to offer.

 

Fortunately, you do not have to believe the pablum contained in the quite fallible 1689 confession on that issue. I certainly do not, and quite a few Bible-Believers don't. That is an issue you can make up your own mind on with sincere prayerful study.

Others will say (with warrant) that your sister is quite safe in the arms of Christ. That is my view, but you should prayerfully consider the Scriptures and the wisdom of many wise counselors on that issue prior to accepting the 1689's vicious pronouncement on that issue.

The 1689's position amounts to saying (with regards to your sister specifically)...."dunno, you'll have to hopefully wait and see whether she was randomly selected or not." "Best -a- luck to ya' ".
Personally, I believe that is one of the most impoverished answers available to that question because it is not Scriptural, but rather it is instead enslaved to false Theological pre-suppositions. Many people painfully struggle with the answer to that question. I had for years. I pray you will find the answer and that it will be the Scriptural answer and that it will bring you peace. :flower:

 

First, there is no slam dunk verse, passage, or chapter in Scripture that speaks to the condition of those who are not able to receive the Gospel by ordinary means. We owe those saints who have lost children in infancy, or who have loved ones who are cognitively impaired, more than just a few verses that still cast doubt. I have provide pastoral counsel to those in that situation. Have you? They have told me how the verses commonly used to "guarantee" them that their child or loved one is with Christ still leave them with doubts. If you are a minister of the Gospel, what do you do then? Castigate them for their lack of faith? No. You appeal to the nature of God as revealed in Scripture. You appeal to His mercy.

Where do we go for answers on this issue? If we appeal to anything - anything - outside of Scripture we appeal to human reason and understanding. Tell me. How well has such reason and understanding served mankind?

Dr. Sam Waldron writes in his Reformed Baptist Manifesto:

Dr. Waldron uses Scripture in appealing to the character of God; his mercy, goodness, justice, righteousness, power, and sovereignty. Instead of misapplying what David said in 2 Samuel 12:23, a verse that has all to do with going to the grave and not heaven, we offer the grieving Christian more comfort by pointing them to God's character. In the absence of definitive scripture, what else are we to do?

The Confession addresses the issue in order to provide a measure of hope. It does no better or no worse in that regard since Scripture is silent on the issue.

We need to be honest with people and provide them true comfort and hope, not hijacked Bible passages.

 

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Example of "hijacked" Bible passages. If this verse applied to infants then it didn't apply to Nicodemus. Since these verses do not mention infants whatsoever (and there are much better verses that direct imputation and infants/children) then the theology has to be read-in to these verses to give it a meaning that Jesus did not give it. Hence, perfect example of hijacked verses.

 

Brother, I am already at peace with this. I already know that God is not in the least encumbered by human characteristics....He is a Sovereign Lord that I am to be obedient to. If I did not do that, I would be inclined to be a raucous sinner & a suicide static. How I find myself some days able to cope, I don't truly know. But there again, real holiness never does feel like holiness; it just feels like you're dying. It feels like you're loosing it. And yet, you are loosing it from the center, from a place where all things are One, where you can joyously, graciously let go of it. You know God's doing it when you can smile, when you can trust the letting go.

 

Our God is not named Moloch. What we have left to do is enter His rest not our rest but His rest. Infants and mental incapable have not even began to work to enter the rest. So they are already in His rest.

There is no need to go outside the scripture to insure your emotional stability. There is not another Gospel. Listen and learn from Jesus and you will find rest for your soul. If you can't even begin to work listen and learn you are in His rest. If you are capable and you never hear or listen learn you are responsible for your actions.

Romans 16:
25 Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from[Or that is] faith— 27 to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Infants and mentally incapable have an excuse you do not.

 

I suspected my previous answer was not going to be well received. That is okay. I can appreciate how personal this issue is to you.

I cannot answer for your sister just as I cannot answer for the tribal person on some remote island who has never heard of Jesus. All I can do - all any of us can do - is appeal to God's mercy. We have to be careful of impugning God's motives. We do not know the beginning from the end.

I was in a discussion with someone once about Hitler. They proposed the idea that God should have killed Hitler as an infant instead of allowing him to grow to adulthood and commit the horrible crimes he was guilty of. I suppose, with hindsight, one could make that argument. But then we are put in a real conundrum. We have no idea what the life story is going to be of a newborn baby. If we knew a baby was going to grow up into a Hitler, I would guess that could change our view on what happens to infants who die in infancy. Of course, thankfully, we do not possess such knowledge. That is why I appeal to God's mercy and trust that He will do right. Is that a cop out? No. A cop out would be avoiding the truth in favor of pragmatism. On this subject no one knows the mind of God. We do know God is a God of mercy. We do know He is capable of calling from the womb (Jer. 1:5; Luke 1:44).