T, U, L and I of the Tulip

[Winman]

That's terrible. That verse has nothing to do with salvation.

"the faith" is the same as in Jude when we are exhorted to contend for "the faith".

This is the Gospel, the doctrines of Christ.

These false teachers were promoting false doctrine and Paul was saying that they must be rebuked so that the faith they preach would be sound, accurate, correct.

He is not saying ANYTHING about rebuking them so that they will be saved.

Luke, if they hold to sound doctrine they would be saved.

This is the problem with proof-texting.

Like Calvinism?

Winman, you read the Bible with Arminian-colored glasses and because you don't know proper hermeneutics you see Armininism EVERYWHERE in the Bible and it is not there.

I honestly wish Skandelon would warmly and lovingly guide you here. Everybody knows Skandelon is an Arminian. But he uses verses that in context COULD be interpreted to say what he is saying.

Skan might be an Arminian, I am not. I do not believe a person can lose their salvation as most Arminians believe. Skan is entitled to believe whatever he wishes..

Once again, this verse says nothing about HOW God instructs these he brings to Christ.

What? That is exactly what it is saying, it is telling the disciples to go out and teach people. If Calvinism is true, teaching the non-elect is futile, and teaching the elect is unnecessary. If God simply regenerates you, makes you spiritually alive, born again, then why is teaching necessary?

It does not say one must be regenerated and it does not say that one does not HAVE to be regenerated. It just says that those who have learned of the Father come to Christ.

You are correct it does not teach that God must regenerate a person so they are able to believe. You cannot provide a single verse of scripture to support that. But the scriptures do teach that those the Father has taught, those who have learned from the Father shall come to Jesus.

It is NEVER an argument to say, "See, this verse doesn't say this must happen."

It is also wrong to say the scriptures teach a person must be regenerated to have the ability to believe when you know as well as I do that no such scripture supporting this exists. If it did, you would quote it.

So what? You can't make a truth from silence. John 3:16 doesn't say that one must hear the Word of God to be saved.

How can a person believe in Jesus if they have never heard of him? Absurd.

Someone could follow your argument style and say, "See, it doesn't say that you need to hear the Bible to be saved. It just says you have to believe in Christ."

How ironic, that is what YOU DO. You teach that men must be regenerated to believe when it is never stated in scripture even once. The scriptures do say that faith comes by hearing the word of God, Jesus said those that HEAR the Father and are taught by him will come to himself. I have complete support of MANY scriptures to support my view, you have NOTHING.

Do you see how silly that line of reasoning is?

Again, how ironic.

BTW, in that context, it DOES say that only those upon whom God moves will come to Christ and ONLY those upon whom God moves will come to Christ.

It says no such thing, it says those who have heard from the Father and have been taught and learned from him shall come to Christ.

The Great Commission is not applicable to this conversation because it does not say what God's part is in our salvation.

The great commission shows how people will be saved, they will be taught from the word of God.

It says to make disciples of the nations. It does not say how God brings this to pass THROUGH our preaching.

What are you saying? That some magical force comes out of the preacher's mouth and regenerates people? Ridiculous. People are saved because they hear the preaching and understand it and place their faith in Jesus.

You constantly use Scriptures to say things that they do not say, Winman.

And you constantly use the teachings of men.

The Scriptures do say repeatedly that man, in his natural, sinful, lost, dead state must be made alive in order to receive the things of the Spirit of God.

Show it. Paul shows that unregenerate men receive the Spirit by hearing the word of God and believing in Galatians 3:2 and Ephesians 1:13.

No man seeketh after God.

Then why did Jesus say blessed are those that hunger and thirst after righteousness?

Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

What you fail to understand is that Paul was quoting Psalm 14 in Romans. These verses were not speaking of all men, but the "wicked".

Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Paul is speaking of fools, atheists who deny God exists. Read in context. If you read just a little more you would see he distinguishes between these atheists and those that fear God.

Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.
6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.

David was not saying ALL men are fools who deny God, and Paul would be in error to teach this. David is speaking of especially wicked men, atheists. These men are also spoken of in Romans 1. But David also speaks of "my people" and "the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.".

And you claim I proof text! How hypocritical.

The natural man receiveth not the things of God.

This passage is speaking of the "deeper things" of God, go back and read.

You cannot SEE the Kingdom of God until you are born again.

Absolutely true, but this does not say you must be regenerated to believe, it doesn't even mention faith. You read into scripture what is not there.

The carnal mind is enmity against God and is not subject to the law of God neither indeed CAN IT BE....

Yes, but this does not say a man cannot turn from his carnal mind, only while he obeys his carnal mind he cannot obey God. It is like saying that while your children are rebellious they cannot please you or obey you, but that does not mean they cannot turn from their rebellion and obey you.

and the list goes on and on and on.

And I could compile a great list of the errors of Calvinism.

 

[Luke2427]

Luke, if they hold to sound doctrine they would be saved.

Is that what you think salvation is???

Like Calvinism?

For anybody.

Skan might be an Arminian, I am not. I do not believe a person can lose their salvation as most Arminians believe. Skan is entitled to believe whatever he wishes..

You can be a PERFECTLY good Arminian and believe in eternal security.

Jacobus Arminius himself was unsure on that point.

What? That is exactly what it is saying, it is telling the disciples to go out and teach people. If Calvinism is true, teaching the non-elect is futile, and teaching the elect is unnecessary.

Have you not read Jeremiah?

God wants his word published to the whole world. It is NOT just to save the elect.

It is a savor of life unto them who are being saved and a savor of death to those who are damned.

If God simply regenerates you, makes you spiritually alive, born again, then why is teaching necessary?

The Word is the means whereby God's spirit regenerates, saves and sanctifies men.

You are correct it does not teach that God must regenerate a person so they are able to believe. You cannot provide a single verse of scripture to support that. But the scriptures do teach that those the Father has taught, those who have learned from the Father shall come to Jesus.

The point is that is the verse is not to be used to teach that men do not have to be regenerated in order to believe. That is how you used it and you abused that verse.

That particular verse does not teach EITHER.

So your quoting of it to prove that regeneration does not precede faith is EXTREMELY bad hermeneutics.

It is also wrong to say the scriptures teach a person must be regenerated to have the ability to believe when you know as well as I do that no such scripture supporting this exists. If it did, you would quote it.

I have quoted them many times and have quoted them in this very thread.

How can a person believe in Jesus if they have never heard of him? Absurd.

They absolutely CANNOT.

Reread the statement.

How ironic, that is what YOU DO. You teach that men must be regenerated to believe when it is never stated in scripture even once.

It is stated repeatedly as I have shown you.

The scriptures do say that faith comes by hearing the word of God, Jesus said those that HEAR the Father and are taught by him will come to himself. I have complete support of MANY scriptures to support my view, you have NOTHING.

The WORDis the TOOL God's Spirit uses to regenerate the lost.

It is both the plow and the seed.

The great commission shows how people will be saved, they will be taught from the word of God.

Yep. No one on earth disagrees with that I suppose.

What are you saying? That some magical force comes out of the preacher's mouth and regenerates people? Ridiculous. People are saved because they hear the preaching and understand it and place their faith in Jesus.

THE WORD regenerates people, Winman.

And you constantly use the teachings of men.

I use the Word of God rightly divided.

You PERVERT 90 percent of the verses you post as prooftexts because you don't know how to interpret the Scriptures you constantly quote.

Show it. Paul shows that unregenerate men receive the Spirit by hearing the word of God and believing in Galatians 3:2 and Ephesians 1:13.

I agree.

Then why did Jesus say blessed are those that hunger and thirst after righteousness?

That's what regenerate people do.

What you fail to understand is that Paul was quoting Psalm 14 in Romans. These verses were not speaking of all men, but the "wicked".

ALL unsaved men are wicked, Winman. Do you not know that??????????

Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Paul is speaking of fools, atheists who deny God exists. Read in context. If you read just a little more you would see he distinguishes between these atheists and those that fear God.

Every man is a fool without Christ, Winman. do you not know that very common and well known Biblical truth.

And, just for the record, atheism is not what the psalmist is referring to here.

Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.
6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.

David was not saying ALL men are fools who deny God, and Paul would be in error to teach this. David is speaking of especially wicked men, atheists. These men are also spoken of in Romans 1. But David also speaks of "my people" and "the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.".

And you claim I proof text! How hypocritical.



This passage is speaking of the "deeper things" of God, go back and read.

David was saying that ALL unbelievers are wicked in these ways. Paul clarifies that that is what David is referring to in Romans, when he utilizes other Scriptures along side this scripture which say, "They have ALL gone... ALL are sinners... NONE doeth good, no not one." Paul uses THIS very argument to prove that ALL men need to be saved when he says in 3:23 "ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God."

Verse 23 is not sitting out there all by itself. It is linked to these passages which say that NONE seek after God, NONE doeth good , no not one.

See, Winman, Arminians, Molinists, Calvinists and the like ALL recognize that these things are linked.

You do not because you don't know how to interpret Scripture yet, and you will never know until you recognize this deficiency of yours. You cannot fix it until you know it is broken.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Hi Michael, my school grades pretty much prove I live on the south side of the bell curve of human intelligence, but thanks for acknowledging I do my best with what God has given me.

Yes, the logic chain does tie the whole Tulip together, so how do I break off the P? First, the TULI refer to actions and circumstances prior to salvation. We cannot seek God from birth. God chose us before creation. Christ died only for those chosen before creation. And God alters us supernaturally from being unable to seek God to being unable not to seek God and trust in Christ. All pre-salvation items.

Second, I believe God does credit our faith as righteousness, and based on this, puts us spiritually in Christ where He protects our faith, 1 Peter 1:3-5. So the logic holds that says if we cannot put ourselves in Christ we also cannot put ourselves out of Christ once God puts us in.

I hope that answers your very insightful question.

It does, and you have used scripture in other posts to bolster your view. I still disagree , but, yes, you answered my question.

 

[OldRegular]

My view reads, "no one understands" until God sent the Word to explain it to us in human terms, and 'no one seeks God,' which is why he is actively seeking us. Proof that we don't seek God is not proof that we can't respond to a God actively seeking us through the powerful Holy Spirit wrought appeal of the Gospel!

So how do you discard the message from God as recorded in Ephesians 2:1-8 [NASB].

1. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2. in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6. and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus,
7. in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

We were dead, obviously not physical death, but dead with respect to God, dead spiritually. While we were dead God made us alive. That seems simple and straightforward enough.

In the 1st chapter of Ephesians [KJV] God through the Apostle Paul tells us:

3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

God chose us in Jesus Christ: before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Yet you would argue that God leaves it up to those who live: according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. to freely decide that they will be holy and without blame before him in love.

Well God sees it differently as Paul records in verse 2:5 above: even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)

 

[Van]

Hi Luke2427, you claim things but have not shown from scripture what you claim.

No one seeks God while they are sinning. This is true. Thus the fact that no one seeks God, because scripture says so, proves in Paul's argument that we all sin. But when you add no one seeks God at any time, you contradict Matthew 23:13 which you have now skipped twice.

Lets stick to what the Bible says, and it says men of flesh can understand the milk of the gospel, receive it with joy and so forth.
NONE of your references suggest otherwise.

I have pointed to Matthew 13, where unregenerate men receive the gospel so they have some spiritual ability to hear and understand and accept it. I have pointed to Matthew 23:13 where unregenerate men are entering heaven.

You did not show that being a sinner equates with total spiritual inability, you simply asserted it.

You apply qualification to the verse and claim I cannot. That dog still will not hunt.

Claiming Calvinism view has been proved does not prove it. Matthew 23:13 proves Calvinism's view is false. I proved a viable alternate understanding of Romans 3:11-12, saying when they are sinning is the idea Paul is presenting and you claim at any time is the idea.

I proved the unregenerate heart can seek after God, citing Matthew 13 and Matthew 23:13. You simply added to Romans 3:11-12 "at any time" without in actual support.

As I said, Titus 1:15-16 is non-germane.

Next, you deny Noah finding favor in the eyes of the Lord, demonstrates that an unregenerate heart can seek God. I believe it does.

Next you say the "message of the Bible" is something other than what the Bible says. Why did God harden the hearts of the unbelieving Jews in Romans 11. The reason is total spiritual inability of all men because of the fall is not the message of the Bible.

Then you throw in several references to scripture. 1 Corinthians 2:14 says natural men do not accept the things of the Spirit of God. Here you add "all" to the text so it reads, in your mind, natural men do not accept ALL the things of the Spirit of God. However, I read it as saying natural men do not accept some of the things of the Spirit of God. Now I read it my way because in the next few verses Paul teaches that babes in Christ cannot understand spiritual meat and therefore they must be spoken to as men of flesh with the milk of the gospel. Thus the passage teaches contextually, natural men do not accept the Spiritual Meatthings of the Spirit of God.

Next you claim a natural man cannot set his or her mind on anything other than fleshly desires. But if you read the passage the whole idea is to set out minds on spiritual things. In other words, Paul is teaching behavior and you are claiming ability.

The Matthew passage (Matt 13:1-30) refers to four soil, and show that natural men have limited spiritual ability unless they have lost it due to hardening.

Enslaved does not equate with Total Spiritual Inability, but does equate with the inability to pay the ransom.

And lastly anytime a person seeks God, Calvinists claim they were regenerated, but without any basis in the text. But Matthew 23:13 puts that ploy to rest. They were entering heaven so they had been secretly regenerated according to Calvinism, but they were blocked so they had not been secretly regenerated. That dog will not hunt.

Calvinism is based on adding to scripture whatever is necessary to alter the text so it conforms to Calvinism doctrine. Words are redefined, to be a sinner means total spiritual inability, to be enslaved means total spiritual inability, and any verse that shows a person seeking God, why they were secretly regenerated. To clever by half.

 

[Luke2427]

Hi Luke2427, you claim things but have not shown from scripture what you claim.

Well that proves it folks.

Van is going to say that Calvinists don't use Scripture no matter what ANYBODY does.

I have already in a handful of posts expounded three chapters of Roman and referenced a dozen other Scriptures.

You have OBLITERATED a text that says that NONE SEEK AFTER GOD and have added "while committing sin" which is not there at all, nor is it ANYWHERE IN THE BIBLE. You just pulled it out of thin air to explain away an EXTRAORDINARILY CLEAR PASSAGE that decimates your theology.

Skandelon dealt with from a "non-cal" point of view SO MUCH BETTER than you did.

His interpretation does not add anything to the text nor take anything away from it.

Yours is HORRIBLE.

No one seeks God while they are sinning. This is true. Thus the fact that no one seeks God, because scripture says so, proves in Paul's argument that we all sin. But when you add no one seeks God at any time, you contradict Matthew 23:13 which you have now skipped twice.

I'll get to Matthew 23:13 in a post or two. Right now we need to deal with this HORRIFIC mauling of the Romans text that you have committed.

Who cares if it is true that people do not seek God while sinning? That is not what the text is saying. Yes, people do not seek God while sinning. But the text is saying that the unregenerate do not seek God PERIOD.

And, yes, Van the period IS there. There is no "while sinning" qualification. Since there IS NO QUALIFICATION it is CLEARLY understood that the author intended to convey that no one seeks God- period.

But if that were not enough, Paul goes on to make it clearer. He also say, "There is NONE that doeth good."

NNE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WOULD THINK THAT PAUL MEANS BY THAT THAT PEOPLE DO GOOD ALL OF THE TIME- JUST NOT WHEN THEY ARE DOING BAD.

That is the WORST handling of this text, I believe I have ever seen.

Lets stick to what the Bible says,

I wish you would. Because it CERTAINLY does not say "none seek after God while their sinning."

That's would be the equivalent of saying, "None seek after God while their not seeking after God."

That would be the most meaningless and silly statement imaginable.

Paul would not have made such a meaningless statement. It would be like saying, "No one is dry when they are soaking wet."

Paul did NOT say that. The Bible no where makes such a qualification. You added it.

So, yes, let's please stick to the Bible.

and it says men of flesh can understand the milk of the gospel, receive it with joy and so forth.

Babes in Christ are to seek after the milk of the of the Word.

Don't accuse Calvinists of not using the Bible when you don't even HALFWAY quote it or even paraphrase it correctly.

I have pointed to Matthew 13, where unregenerate men receive the gospel so they have some spiritual ability to hear and understand and accept it.

There IS NO reference in Matt 13 that shows unregenerate man doing anything toward God.

I have pointed to Matthew 23:13 where unregenerate men are entering heaven.

Nope. It is not there.

You did not show that being a sinner equates with total spiritual inability, you simply asserted it.

I did show it with a dozen verses. Verses that COULD NOT BE CLEARER.

When a man CANNOT EVEN PLOW HIS FIELD AND IT NOT BE SIN- THAT IS TOTAL DEPRAVITY.

When the Bible CLEARLY says that there are NONE that doeth good that is TOTAL DEPARVITY.

When the Bible says that THE HEART, not just SOME hearts, THE heart is desperately wicked, deceitful above ALL THINGS- that is TOTAL DEPRAVITY.

When the Bible says that the carnal mind (the only mind with which a lost man is endowed) is enmity with God and is NOT subject to the law of God neither indeed CAN IT BE- did you hear that?- NEITHER CAN IT BE. Listen to it again, Van- IT CANNOT BE SUBJECT TO THE LAW OF GOD-
That's TOTAL DEPRAVITY.

When the Bible says that the natural man (a literal synonym for 'unregenerate man') receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God... neither CAN HE KNOW THEM- did you hear that Van?- he CAN'T.

He CAN'T.
He CAN'T.

I want you to get this. The Bible says HE CAN'T.

He CANNOT.

That is, as you put it, "TOTAL SPIRITUAL INABILITY."

I can't imagine what words God could have used to make that any clearer.

If you don't see it, it is because you have gouged out your eyes in hatred against Calvinism.

But it is clearly in the Bible.

Claiming Calvinism view has been proved does not prove it. Matthew 23:13 proves Calvinism's view is false.

Alright. I'll deal with that next post, since these posts are going long. It is 5 am and I have some work to do to my sermon for this morning. I'll get to it later.

But you need to deal with the fact that I have used Scripture to support the doctrine of total depravity.

As I said, Titus 1:15-16 is non-germane.

Yes, it is. I've already explained why. You did not address my explanation of why it is germane, I assume, because you cannot.

Next, you deny Noah finding favor in the eyes of the Lord, demonstrates that an unregenerate heart can seek God. I believe it does.

It's not there. Saying "it does" is not an argument. Your view is not in that text PERIOD.

Show it. Don't claim it. But the reason you do not show it, is because it is not there. You have added it to support your viewpoint.

I'll have to address the rest of this later.

I will address the rest after you respond to the above.

 

[Winman]

Luke, Calvinists misinterpret what Paul was saying in Romans. Paul was quoting Psalm 14 which his Jewish audience would know. This Psalm is speaking of "fools" who deny that God exists. If you read the whole Psalm you see that God makes a distinction between these men and "my people" and "the poor, because the LORD is his refuge".

Psa 14:4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.
6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.
7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

It is these "fools" who do not seek God, it is these "fools" who are workers of iniquity. Is God saying this is all men? NO, he says these wicked men "eat up my people", he says they shame the counsel of the poor "because the LORD is his refuge".

This is what Paul is quoting in Romans and the Jews would have known this was not saying all men are fools. If Paul were to say this Psalm is saying all men are fools, he would have misrepresented God's word. Absurd.

The fact is, there are many instances in the scriptures where men sought God.

2 Chr 15:3 Now for a long season Israel hath been without the true God, and without a teaching priest, and without law.
4 But when they in their trouble did turn unto the LORD God of Israel, and sought him, he was found of them.

2 Chr 15:12 And they entered into a covenant to seek the LORD God of their fathers with all their heart and with all their soul;

These men sought God. Did they do it of themselves? NO, they had heard the word of God and were convicted, this motivated them to seek God. But there is not one word that teaches they were regenerated to do so.

2 Cor 31:20 And thus did Hezekiah throughout all Judah, and wrought that which was good and right and truth before the LORD his God.
21 And in every work that he began in the service of the house of God, and in the law, and in the commandments, to seek his God, he did it with all his heart, and prospered.

Here is another example, king Hezekiah determined to seek God with all his heart. But there is not one word that says he was regenerated to do so.

These two examples alone (and there are more) prove that Calvinism misinterprets what Paul said in Romans. Men indeed do seek the Lord.

 

[Luke2427]

Luke, Calvinists misinterpret what Paul was saying in Romans. Paul was quoting Psalm 14 which his Jewish audience would know. This Psalm is speaking of "fools" who deny that God exists. If you read the whole Psalm you see that God makes a distinction between these men and "my people" and "the poor, because the LORD is his refuge".

I have already explained why your interpretation here is erroneous.

Please, go back and find that post and respond to it.

Repeating the same argument is not a debate or a conversation.

The fact is, there are many instances in the scriptures where men sought God.

2 Chr 15:3 Now for a long season Israel hath been without the true God, and without a teaching priest, and without law.
4 But when they in their trouble did turn unto the LORD God of Israel, and sought him, he was found of them.

All the saved, BILLIONS upon BILLIONS of them, have sought God.

What is your point?

You don't GET SAVED UNTIL you seek God.

But the Bible absolutely could not be more clear that NNE seeks after God UNTIL he moves upon them.

There, quite literally, is NOTHING in the Bible more clear than this.

Arminians and Calvinists alike agree on this.

The only people who don't are people like you who really have no theology at all.

What that passage does not do is undermine the very clear fact that Paul stated in Romans three and is emphasized the dozen other passages I have cited- that no man, while among the masses of unregenerate mankind seeks after God. NONE- that's what Paul said. NONE do good- period. Not "none do good most of the time". No. NONE DO GOOD-PERIOD. There is NONE that doeth good. Paul is clearly speaking of the unregenerate world from Romans 1 to Romans 3 and he says that NONE of the unregenerate world DO GOOD. NONE SEEK AFTER GOD.

This could not be more clear.

You MAUL the Scriptures to hold on to this erroneous theology you came up with for yourself.

2 Chr 15:12 And they entered into a covenant to seek the LORD God of their fathers with all their heart and with all their soul;

These men sought God. Did they do it of themselves? NO, they had heard the word of God and were convicted, this motivated them to seek God. But there is not one word that teaches they were regenerated to do so.

I agree. The Spirit of God through the Word of God awakened them through conviction to their need of God and sent them after the God who was after them.

EVERYONE I KNOW believes that this is how it works. What is your point, Winman??

2 Cor 31:20 And thus did Hezekiah throughout all Judah, and wrought that which was good and right and truth before the LORD his God.
21 And in every work that he began in the service of the house of God, and in the law, and in the commandments, to seek his God, he did it with all his heart, and prospered.

HEZEKIAH WAS A SAINT!!

Who on EARTH in the HISTORY of the WORLD has EVER SAID EVEN ONCE that SAINTS do not seek after God??????

Here is another example, king Hezekiah determined to seek God with all his heart. But there is not one word that says he was regenerated to do so.

Do you not understand that you cannot make an argument from silence? Do you not understand that principle?

Do you not understand that it meaningless to pick a text and try to make a point by saying that something is NOT there in that ONE text???

Ask ANYBODY, saved or lost, Calvinist, Arminian, Non-cal, or whatever- ANYBODY with ANY understanding of logic and they will tell you that this is a HORRIBLE way to support a viewpoint.

These two examples alone (and there are more) prove that Calvinism misinterprets what Paul said in Romans. Men indeed do seek the Lord.

Calvinism does not say that there is never anyone who seeks after God. BILLIONS upon BILLIONS have sought after God. I have. You have. Hezekiah has.

That is not Paul's point in Romans, as I have clearly stated several times now in this thread.

Paul's point is that while man is unregenerate, before God moves upon him- NONE of those seek after God.

Why? Why is it that NONE- NOT ONE- NOT A SINGLE PERSON ON EARTH seeks after God before God moves upon him by his Spirit through his Word?

Because all men ARE TOTALLY DEPRAVED.

If all men were NOT totally depraved, you'd expect AT LEAST one person in the history of the world to go off after God before God moved upon him.

But not ONE ever has.

That's total depravity.

 

[Winman]

Luke, no one is arguing that God MOVES upon people. The word of God reproves people, it convicts people. That is altogether different from saying a man must be made spiritually alive to believe, you have not one word in scripture to support this.

This is all about ABILITY. The scriptures show unregenerate man can be reproved and convicted by the word of God and can respond in repentance and faith. You teach that a man must be regenerated before this can happen, total error.

I disagree with your interpretation of what Paul said in Romans. He does not mention one word about being regenerated. He was quoting Psalm 14 which is speaking of "fools" who deny God, not ALL men. All one has to do is read this Psalm and they will see God is not saying all men are fools, because he speaks of "his people" and the poor who put their trust in God.

I agree. The Spirit of God through the Word of God awakened them through conviction to their need of God and sent them after the God who was after them.

EVERYONE I KNOW believes that this is how it works. What is your point, Winman??

Well, I would use the word "enlightened" as shown in Hebrews 6. But this is not regeneration. The scriptures in Hebrews 6 show a man can be enlightened and convicted to the point of repentance and yet fall away in unbelief.

You are using wiggle words. To be awakened is not regeneration and you know it.

Do you not understand that you cannot make an argument from silence? Do you not understand that principle?

This is laughable, this is exactly what you do. You claim a person must be regenerated to believe when this is not said one time in scripture. How can you not see this Luke? You believe something NEVER said in scripture, you are arguing from silence! And you are being a hypocrite to accuse me of this. You are blind to your own error.

It is impossible to reason with the unreasonable.

 

[Luke2427]

Luke, no one is arguing that God MOVES upon people. The word of God reproves people, it convicts people. That is altogether different from saying a man must be made spiritually alive to believe, you have not one word in scripture to support this.

No, no. What you contend is that man is not so depraved that he does not ever of his own volition go seeking after God.

What nearly every reputable theology in the history of the Christian church has acknowledged is that NO MAN SEEKS AFTER GOD until God moves upon him.

The reasoning hundreds of millions of Christians of numerous different stripes have acknowledged this, is because we know that man is depraved- he is born a sinner.

He will not come to the light because his deeds are evil. He loves darkness rather than light.

That's why the Father must DRAW ANYONE who EVER comes to Christ.

This is all about ABILITY. The scriptures show unregenerate man can be reproved and convicted by the word of God and can respond in repentance and faith. You teach that a man must be regenerated before this can happen, total error.

No, I don't. And aside from some of our primitive baptist brethren, there are not many Calvinists who DO.

We teach that God regenerates man by the power of his Spirit through his Word.

He was quoting Psalm 14 which is speaking of "fools" who deny God, not ALL men. All one has to do is read this Psalm and they will see God is not saying all men are fools, because he speaks of "his people" and the poor who put their trust in God.

You just can't see it. You have gouged out your own eyes so that you cannot see it.

ALL MEN WITHOUT CHRIST ARE "FOOLS". ALL. ALL. ALL OF THEM.

What Christian on EARTH, besides you, thinks that sinners without Christ, are NOT FOOLS and WICKED???????

You are using wiggle words. To be awakened is not regeneration and you know it.

Yes, it is. It is the ESSENCE of regeneration. There are few words in any language that are better synonyms for the word "regeneration" than the word "awaken."

This is laughable, this is exactly what you do. You claim a person must be regenerated to believe when this is not said one time in scripture.

I've shown you numerous TIMES that the Scriptures teach this. Numerous times.

But you don't have the eyes to see it, nor the ears to hear it. You cannot get it because you have so pitted yourself against the exhaustive Sovereignty of God over his creatures that you could not see it if a thousand clear verses saying it were presented to you.

 

[Winman]

No, no. What you contend is that man is not so depraved that he does not ever of his own volition go seeking after God.

I have always said that no man can be saved unless God first reveals himself and convicts a sinner through the word of God. I challenge you to show where I have EVER said otherwise, you cannot show it.

What I do say is that man can RESPOND to this drawing and conviction while he is still a sinner. Jesus himself said the dead (spiritually dead) can hear his voice, and those that hear shall live.

Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Did Jesus say the "living", the "regenerate" shall hear his voice? NO. Jesus said the "dead" shall hear his voice, and those that hear shall live.

The scriptures indeed show the unregenerate can respond to the call of of God, and if they come in faith to Jesus they will be made alive.

What nearly every reputable theology in the history of the Christian church has acknowledged is that NO MAN SEEKS AFTER GOD until God moves upon him.

Who determines who is "reputable", you? What a laugh.

The reasoning hundreds of millions of Christians of numerous different stripes have acknowledged this, is because we know that man is depraved- he is born a sinner.

The reason hundreds of millions of Christians have believed this is because they have been taught false doctrine that is not found in the scriptures.

He will not come to the light because his deeds are evil. He loves darkness rather than light.

Agreed, it is a matter of the will, not ability.

That's why the Father must DRAW ANYONE who EVER comes to Christ.

I have always said this, but this is not regeneration. The young rich ruler was drawn to Christ, he sought Christ out, but he was not saved.

No, I don't. And aside from some of our primitive baptist brethren, there are not many Calvinists who DO.

Give me a break, I have posted actual quotes from Calvinists such as one of R.C. Sproul's associates that say a man can be regenerated for years before he even hears the gospel.

The Reformation Study Bible (formerly called The Geneva Study Bible) claims to be a clear statement of Reformed theology. On page 1664 there is an article on Regeneration. It is a shocking statement relating to infant salvation: "Infants can be born again, although the faith that they exercise cannot be as visible as that of adults." I wrote to R.C. Sproul (General Editor) to ask for clarification of this statement. I received a written response from Sproul’s assistant, V.A. Voorhis (dated 1/6/2000) in which he made the following statement which is even more shocking:

When the RSB speaks in the notes of John 3 of "infants being born again," it is speaking of the work of quickening God does in them which inclines their will to Him. In Protestantism, regeneration always precedes faith and if God quickens them, the person will surely come . . .Often, regeneration and our subsequent faith happen apparently simultaneously but logically, regeneration must precede faith. An infant’s faith may not come until years after God has worked by His Holy Spirit to regenerate him or her [emphasis ours]. Two Biblical examples of infants who were born again are seen in Psalm 22:9-10 and Luke 1:15.

Here is what another Reformed site says;

Both of these operations together, regeneration and conversion, make up the new birth. They are both the fruit of Christ's righteousness imputed, the only ground of salvation. In the new birth, regeneration comes first, because there must be life before there can be faith. No sinner will be converted until he is quickened. Quickening is an act of God the Holy Spirit without the use of any means. It is the act of a sovereign God who is the only source and originator of salvation. It is not the work of men, nor is it conditioned on anything done by men or in men. Regeneration does not come as the result of hearing the Gospel. Apart from regeneration no sinner will receive the Gospel savingly. The new birth does not come as the result of sinners exercising faith, nor does it come as the result of man exercising his will toward God --

http://rofgrace.com/what_happens_in_the_new_birth__john_3_3_8

Now, later this same writer says it is impossible to be converted without the gospel, so he contradicts himself. What a surprise.

We teach that God regenerates man by the power of his Spirit through his Word.

Yes, and I just showed you a quote from a Reformed writer who says a person is regenerated without "any means".

You just can't see it. You have gouged out your own eyes so that you cannot see it.

You are the one who can't recognize his own error, you have repeatedly said an argument cannot be made from silence, but there is not one verse in all the scriptures that says a man must be regenerated to have the ability to believe. That is an argument from silence.

ALL MEN WITHOUT CHRIST ARE "FOOLS". ALL. ALL. ALL OF THEM.

This is not true, thousands of people have believed in God before they heard the true gospel and were saved. They were not fools, they did not deny that God exists.

And it is clear in Psalm 14 that God is not calling all people fools, he speaks of "my people", "the righteous", the poor whose refuge is the Lord, and "his people". These fools are oppressing these persons.

What Christian on EARTH, besides you, thinks that sinners without Christ, are NOT FOOLS and WICKED???????

These fools are defined by the word of God, these are men who have said in their heart, "There is no God". A Muslim is not saved, he does not believe in Christ, but he is no fool, he does not deny that there is a God.

Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Yes, it is. It is the ESSENCE of regeneration. There are few words in any language that are better synonyms for the word "regeneration" than the word "awaken."

The scriptures show a man can be enlightened by the Holy Spirit and brought to repentance, but fall away in unbelief.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

There are only two possibilities here, and they both refute Calvinism.

#1 a person can be regenerated and fall away in unbelief and be lost, or...

#2 a person can be enlightened by the Holy Spirit to the point of repentance and fall away in unbelief.

These are your only two options, and both refute the Calvinistic view of regeneration.

I've shown you numerous TIMES that the Scriptures teach this. Numerous times.

You have NEVER shown one single verse of scripture that says a man must be regenerated to have the ability to believe. That is impossible, because no such verse exists. You haven't shown it before, and you won't show it in the future. You just falsely claim that you have shown it, but you haven't. No Calvinist has done this in 400 years, it is an argument from silence that you detest so much.

But you don't have the eyes to see it, nor the ears to hear it. You cannot get it because you have so pitted yourself against the exhaustive Sovereignty of God over his creatures that you could not see it if a thousand clear verses saying it were presented to you.

You are correct I can't see it, because it isn't there!

 

[Luke2427]

I have always said that no man can be saved unless God first reveals himself and convicts a sinner through the word of God. I challenge you to show where I have EVER said otherwise, you cannot show it.

NNE, Calvinist, Arminian, Molinist, Catholic, etc... NNE in CHRISTENDOM denies that.

What Van, and I think you, have said is that man is not so depraved that he cannot go seeking after God.

Van says that that verse means that man never seeks after God WHILE HE IS SINNING- which is, in my opinion, madness. The verse says no such thing.

What I do say is that man can RESPOND to this drawing and conviction while he is still a sinner.

Once again- NNE, Calvinist, Arminian, Molinist, Catholic, etc... NNE in CHRISTENDOM denies that.

Jesus himself said the dead (spiritually dead) can hear his voice, and those that hear shall live.

Once again- NNE, Calvinist, Arminian, Molinist, Catholic, etc... NNE in CHRISTENDOM denies that.

Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Did Jesus say the "living", the "regenerate" shall hear his voice? NO. Jesus said the "dead" shall hear his voice, and those that hear shall live.

There you go again.

You have no point when your point is based on something NOT SAID.

ANYBODY will tell you that Winman.

The scriptures indeed show the unregenerate can respond to the call of of God, and if they come in faith to Jesus they will be made alive.

The Scriptures do not say that the unregenerate while in their unregenerate state come to God.

The reason hundreds of millions of Christians have believed this is because they have been taught false doctrine that is not found in the scriptures.

You are the measure of biblical interpretation then Winman. All the Christians of all the ages have been wrong until you came along.

Since there has not been a Christian on earth in history that has believed like you- you are the first real Christian. Congratulations.

All the works of all of the Christian scholars of all of the world in their deepest, Spirit led desires to interpret the Scriptures acurately- all of those works are bunk.

Thank goodness you came along.

Do you realize there are things that almost every Christian denomination and movement in history agree on that you totally repudiate?

Agreed, it is a matter of the will, not ability.

Which are both one and the same.

You CANNOT do what you do not will to do.

This is something that you're not going to get because you're going to say, "People do things they don't want to do all of the time!!"

And no one is going to be able to help you understand that when people find themselves at a fork in the road, a place of decision between two options, they will ALWAYS do, BETWEEN THOSE TWPTIONS AVAILABLE, what they MOST want to do.

For example: a man in the desert has a choice between death and drinking his own bodily fluids.

Does he want to drink his own bodily fluids? No. He wants a tall glass of ice water. But that is not an option. He must choose between the options available to him.

So what will he choose? he will choose what he MOST WANTS between the options available. If he MOST wants to live, he will drink his bodily fluids. If he'd rather die, then he will dehydrate to death in that desert.

Man will always choose only ever what he MOST wants among the options available to him.

WHENEVER there is an option between light and darkness for an unregenerate sinner, he will ALWAYS choose darkness.

Jesus said, "He WILL NOT COME TO THE LIGHT..."

He CANNOT do what he does not WILL to do when an option to do otherwise is available to him.

Give me a break, I have posted actual quotes from Calvinists such as one of R.C. Sproul's associates that say a man can be regenerated for years before he even hears the gospel.

Many of us, including myself, DO BELIEVE that a man can be regenerated long before he is saved.

But most Calvinists do not believe that regeneration takes place APART FROM THE WORD OF GOD.

Here is what another Reformed site says;



http://rofgrace.com/what_happens_in_the_new_birth__john_3_3_8

Now, later this same writer says it is impossible to be converted without the gospel, so he contradicts himself. What a surprise.

It's not a contradiction, you just don't understand it.

And I DO think that if God so chooses he can regenerate someone without means. I don't know that he ever does, but I am more than certain he CAN. But the normative, if not exclusive manner in which God brings about regeneration is through the Word.

I disagree with our primitive baptist brethren and some others that regeneration usually takes place apart from the Word of God.

Scripture says, "You were born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God which liveth and abideth forever."

Yes, and I just showed you a quote from a Reformed writer who says a person is regenerated without "any means".

With whom I would disagree.

You are the one who can't recognize his own error, you have repeatedly said an argument cannot be made from silence, but there is not one verse in all the scriptures that says a man must be regenerated to have the ability to believe. That is an argument from silence.

I have shown them to you NUMEROUS times.

You don't have eyes to see it, nor ears to hear it, Winman.

This is not true, thousands of people have believed in God before they heard the true gospel and were saved. They were not fools, they did not deny that God exists.

How you can believe that sinners without Christ are not fools and wicked is beyond me.

And it is clear in Psalm 14 that God is not calling all people fools, he speaks of "my people", "the righteous", the poor whose refuge is the Lord, and "his people". These fools are oppressing these persons.

My, my.

These fools are defined by the word of God, these are men who have said in their heart, "There is no God". A Muslim is not saved, he does not believe in Christ, but he is no fool, he does not deny that there is a God.

Muslims fit PERFECTLY into what the Psalmist is saying here. It is ABSOLUTELY AMAZING TO ME that you think that Muslims are not fools.

AMAZING!

Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Atheists are in view in verse 1 as the chiefest of fools. But verse two has the Lord looking down upon ALL THE CHILDREN OF MEN and declaring there are NONE AMONG THE CHILDREN OF MEN that understandeth and there are NONE AMONG THE CHILDREN OF MEN that doeth good.

Paul uses this VERY passage to condemn THEISTS- JEWS WHO BELIEVED IN GOD. Paul in Romans 3 is not talking to atheists!!

He is using the passage in Psalms to point out that Jews who believe in God do not understand, do not seek after God and do not do any good any better than the Gentiles.

You have NEVER shown one single verse of scripture that says a man must be regenerated to have the ability to believe.

Yes, I have, many times and for the sake of those who might read our exchange on this thread, I will do so again- not for you, because you do not have eyes to see it yet; but so that people who read will know that we really have shown you passages that teach that regeneration must precede faith- I will show you again.

That is impossible, because no such verse exists. You haven't shown it before, and you won't show it in the future. You just falsely claim that you have shown it, but you haven't.

When I show the numerous verses that teach this yet again, you will still claim that I haven't- but I will do it again for the sake of the reader.

I will try to get to it today. If I can't I will get to it, if AT ALL POSSIBLE, tomorrow.

There are numerous verses and I will do the heavy lifting of exposition once again for you so it will be more cumbersome and time consuming than just responding to a post like I do here.

As soon as the opportunity arises I will show you YET AGAIN some of the many places that the Bible teaches that unregenerate men do NOT come to Christ before they are made alive spiritually.

 

[Van]

Well that proves it folks.

Van is going to say that Calvinists don't use Scripture no matter what ANYBODY does.

1. Personal attack from the guy who said stick to the bible.

I have already in a handful of posts expounded three chapters of Roman and referenced a dozen other Scriptures.

And wasted time making points not in contention.
The issue is whether being an unregenerate sinner results in total spiritual inability.

You have OBLITERATED a text that says that NONE SEEK AFTER GOD and have added "while committing sin" which is not there at all, nor is it ANYWHERE IN THE BIBLE. You just pulled it out of thin air to explain away an EXTRAORDINARILY CLEAR PASSAGE that decimates your theology.

The Calvinist adds "while unregenerate" and I add while sinning. Mine view fits the context, proving we are all under sin, the Calvinist view obliterates Paul's argument that we are all under sin.

Yours is HORRIBLE.

Mine is based on the text, and what is horrible is that it does not agree with the Calvinist view.

I'll get to Matthew 23:13 in a post or two. Right now we need to deal with this HORRIFIC mauling of the Romans text that you have committed.

Calling my view a Horrific mauling is simply sound and fury signifying nothing.

Who cares if it is true that people do not seek God while sinning? That is not what the text is saying. Yes, people do not seek God while sinning. But the text is saying that the unregenerate do not seek God PERIOD.

No, the text does not say the unregenerate do not seek God at any time. You added your doctrine to the text. It says no one seeks God, and does not provide any qualifier. You added yours, which does not fit the argument, and I added my to fit the argument and not conflict with all the passages that teach the unregenerate seek God some of the time.

And, yes, Van the period IS there. There is no "while sinning" qualification. Since there IS NO QUALIFICATION it is CLEARLY understood that the author intended to convey that no one seeks God- period.

That is right and if we strip away the qualification you added, the passage does not support total spiritual inability. QED

But if that were not enough, Paul goes on to make it clearer. He also say, "There is NONE that doeth good."

NNE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WOULD THINK THAT PAUL MEANS BY THAT THAT PEOPLE DO GOOD ALL OF THE TIME- JUST NOT WHEN THEY ARE DOING BAD.

That is the WORST handling of this text, I believe I have ever seen.

Strawman argument. I said nobody does anything righteous. So why insert a strawman argument and then claim I made it and it reflects the worst handling the text.

That's would be the equivalent of saying, "None seek after God while their not seeking after God."

That would be the most meaningless and silly statement imaginable.

Please debate my position rather than strawman arguments of your own invention. Remember you said to stick with what scripture says? Note that your strawman does not fit the argument, and so it is silly. I look at your qualifier and make the same observation. It does not make sense in light of the point Paul is making, that we are all under sin.

Paul would not have made such a meaningless statement. It would be like saying, "No one is dry when they are soaking wet."

Agreed, his statement would support his argument.

Don't accuse Calvinists of not using the Bible when you don't even HALFWAY quote it or even paraphrase it correctly.

I think we all understand you disagree with my view.

There IS NO reference in Matt 13 that shows unregenerate man doing anything toward God.

The second soil received the gospel with joy. That is doing something toward God. QED

When the Bible CLEARLY says that there are NONE that doeth good that is TOTAL DEPRAVITY.

That is a definitional argument, redefining not doing good as seeking God. But the idea is that all our works of righteousness - note we are seeking God as a work of righteousness - are as fility rags.

When the Bible says that THE HEART, not just SOME hearts, THE heart is desperately wicked, deceitful above ALL THINGS- that is TOTAL DEPRAVITY.

No, that is just the Calvinist redefinition to fit their doctrine. Remember Noah found favor in God's eyes, so a fallen heart does not preclude seeking God.

And another point, regeneration means to be re-originated or born again. Thus when we are spiritually dead, and made alive, we are regenerated, reborn. We are reborn when we are put in Christ, Ephesians 2:5, made alive together with Christ. When we are separated from God we are dead, when we are united with Christ we are alive. Noah was not made alive, united with Christ, regenerated before Christ died on the cross. Hebrews 11:39-40.

When the Bible says that the carnal mind (the only mind with which a lost man is endowed) is enmity with God and is NOT subject to the law of God neither indeed CAN IT BE- did you hear that?- NEITHER CAN IT BE. Listen to it again, Van- IT CANNOT BE SUBJECT TO THE LAW OF GOD-
That's TOTAL DEPRAVITY.

Yet another definitional argument, defining and equating a carnal mind with total spiritual inability. All sizzle and no steak. You have no idea of what this verse actually says. I will get to it after you deal with Matthew 13 and Matthew 23.

If you don't see it, it is because you have gouged out your eyes in hatred against Calvinism.

More ad homenim arguments from the fellow who said lets stick with the Bible.

But you need to deal with the fact that I have used Scripture to support the doctrine of total depravity.

No you have referenced the usual suspects and claimed they say what you have added and redefined.

Matthew 23:13 says total spiritual inability does not fit with the teachings of Jesus.

 

[Winman]

What Van, and I think you, have said is that man is not so depraved that he cannot go seeking after God.

I showed you actual scripture that says kings Asa and Hezekiah sought God. Your argument that they were regenerated is an argument from silence, no such thing is said.

The Scriptures do not say that the unregenerate while in their unregenerate state come to God.

Oh, but the scriptures do say a person comes to God in an unregenerate state.

Jhn 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Jesus said a man has to come to him to have life. You teach the nonsensical doctrine that a man must be made alive so he is able to come to God so that he can be made alive. Total nonsense.

Now, if you don't see a problem there Luke, you are in serious trouble logic wise.

You are the measure of biblical interpretation then Winman. All the Christians of all the ages have been wrong until you came along.

Give me a break, millions of Christians believe as I do, you call them Arminians. I do not call myself Arminian because I believe in Preservation of the Saints, they believe in Perseverance of the Saints which is quite different. But Arminians believe the unregenerate can come to God in faith and be saved.

Which are both one and the same.

No, the will and ability are not the same. I have never had the will to jump off a tall building, but I am able to do so. However, if I were to spend a week with you, I may become willing to jump. :tongue3:

And no one is going to be able to help you understand that when people find themselves at a fork in the road, a place of decision between two options, they will ALWAYS do, BETWEEN THOSE TWPTIONS AVAILABLE, what they MOST want to do.

This is not so, if a robber stuck a gun in my face and demanded my wallet, I would give it to him, but that is not my greatest desire. My greatest desire is to both stay alive AND keep my wallet. Oh, I would settle to save my life and give up my wallet, nevertheless that is not my greatest desire.

Calvinists love to point out that the young rich ruler was not willing to give up his riches and follow Jesus, but they ignore that the disciples gave up everything, their professions and even their families to follow Jesus. So, some men will will one thing, some will will another. To argue that the disciples were regenerated is an argument from silence. And you yourself have said that is not a sound practice.

Many of us, including myself, DO BELIEVE that a man can be regenerated long before he is saved.

Then you believe an impossibility. No man can be regenerated or spiritually alive until his sins are forgiven, and no man can have his sins forgiven until he believes on Jesus. The scriptures are clear that we are justified by faith.

But you believe a man is made spiritually alive before he has believed and been justified. You believe a man can be spiritually alive while he is still dead in trespasses and sins.

You really haven't thought this out, have you?

Faith must precede regeneration, because your sins must be forgiven before you can be spiritually alive.

I have shown them to you NUMEROUS times.

Why do you persist in falsehood? You have never shown even one verse of scripture that says a man must be regenerated to be made able to believe. No Calvinist has ever shown this, if they did, the debate would be over. Calvinists argue this from silence, which you have said is error. You are correct.

But I have shown you an unregenerate man can respond to God and be saved, I showed you John 5:25 and John 5:40. Both these verses show the unregenerate can hear and come to Christ, and if they do they will be made alive.

Yes, I have, many times and for the sake of those who might read our exchange on this thread, I will do so again- not for you, because you do not have eyes to see it yet; but so that people who read will know that we really have shown you passages that teach that regeneration must precede faith- I will show you again.

I can't wait. You will be the first Calvinist ever to show this.

Please show it. And if you can show scripture that says a man must be regenerated so that he is able to believe, I will tell everyone at BB you are correct and I was wrong. I will start a thread just to do that.

So, hurry up and show me.

 

[Van]

Understanding Romans 8:5-9

5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

Who are those who are “according to the flesh?” They are natural fallen people, unsaved, unelected and unregenerate. They are “in Adam” and not “in Christ.”

What are the “things of the flesh?” They are, in this context, ungodly behaviors such as immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing and things like these.

Who are those who are “according to the Spirit?” They are people who have been elected born anew, saved and regenerated (born anew). They are “in Christ because God transferred them from the realm of darkness (in Adam) into the Kingdom of Christ.

What are the “things of the Spirit?” They are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.

So our first question, and one we will revisit as we work our way through the passage, is whether those who are according to the flesh do at times set their minds on godly things, even though their natural inclination would be set their minds on the things of the flesh. And the answer is verse 5 does not say.

6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Why is the mind set on the flesh death? This refers to the result or outcome of such behavior. If we set our minds on the things of the flesh, ungodly sinful things, we will reap corruption, and become more hardened and that path leads to death.

Why is the mind set on the Spirit life and peace? If we set our minds on the Spirit we will reap the rewards on following the paths of righteousness, i.e. the things of the Spirit including but not mentioned above eternal life.

Thus Paul is contrasting our position – in Adam or in Christ – with the behaviors that go with those positions, ungodly behaviors with godly behaviors.

Next, Paul addresses additional things that go with being in Adam and setting our minds of the flesh. First, the mind set on flesh, referring to the things of the flesh or ungodliness is (1) hostile toward God, and (2) not in submission to God’s law. Then Paul adds those whose mind is set on the things of the flesh are not able to either be friendly toward God or follow the law. This is because they are doing just the opposite, James 4:4. It is impossible to be godly at the same time as being ungodly. What the verse says is when the mind of the unregenerate is set on the flesh, then they are unable to submit to the law. It does not say the unregenerate are unable to set their minds on anything but the flesh at all times. This is the unwarranted extrapolation of Calvinism and reflects shoddy bible study.

But why not "assume" that is implied, for the verse also does not say they can set their minds anywhere other than the things of the flesh? If we look at 1 Corinthians 2:14 to 3:3 we see that unregenerates cannot, are unable, to discern the spiritual things which are discerned with the aid of our indwelt Spirit. But we see those who are indwelt can set their minds on the things of the flesh, and we see that men in the flesh, i.e. unregenerate men, can understand the milk of the gospel.

And finally, Paul says those who are “in the flesh” cannot please God. Here we have a difficulty. In the flesh can mean in the natural fallen unregenerate unsaved state, or simply the condition of a person in either state, setting their minds on things of the flesh. However, here, I think Paul is saying in addition to points one and two, unsaved people cannot please God even if they set their minds on godly behavior because all our works of righteousness are as filthy rags. This view would bolster his argument for godly behavior of those in Christ, because we were created for good works.

9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Here in verse 9 Paul shifts his topic from the expected behaviors of those who are according to the Spirit to the essential prerequisite of being “according to the Spirit” rather than striving to please God with godly behavior. Unless we have been born anew, and sealed with the Holy Spirit in Christ, such that we are in Christ and Christ is in us, our efforts at godliness will not please God.

And if we continue reading in Romans 8 we will see that if Christ is in us we have God as our Daddy (Abba) and we are [spiritual] children of God.

Now lets return to our unanswered question, does this passage say or suggest those who are according to the flesh, unregenerate and unsaved, cannot at any time set their minds on spiritual things such as the milk of the gospel.
And the answer is no. In fact it suggests godly behavior cuts no ice if we are according to the flesh.

 

[Van]

Quote without comment:

No serious Bible student should disagree that men can seek God; even unregenerate sinners.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

1. Personal attack from the guy who said stick to the bible.

And wasted time making points not in contention.
The issue is whether being an unregenerate sinner results in total spiritual inability.

The Calvinist adds "while unregenerate" and I add while sinning. Mine view fits the context, proving we are all under sin, the Calvinist view obliterates Paul's argument that we are all under sin.

Mine is based on the text, and what is horrible is that it does not agree with the Calvinist view.

Calling my view a Horrific mauling is simply sound and fury signifying nothing.

No, the text does not say the unregenerate do not seek God at any time. You added your doctrine to the text. It says no one seeks God, and does not provide any qualifier. You added yours, which does not fit the argument, and I added my to fit the argument and not conflict with all the passages that teach the unregenerate seek God some of the time.

That is right and if we strip away the qualification you added, the passage does not support total spiritual inability. QED

Strawman argument. I said nobody does anything righteous. So why insert a strawman argument and then claim I made it and it reflects the worst handling the text.

Please debate my position rather than strawman arguments of your own invention. Remember you said to stick with what scripture says? Note that your strawman does not fit the argument, and so it is silly. I look at your qualifier and make the same observation. It does not make sense in light of the point Paul is making, that we are all under sin.

Agreed, his statement would support his argument.

I think we all understand you disagree with my view.

The second soil received the gospel with joy. That is doing something toward God. QED

That is a definitional argument, redefining not doing good as seeking God. But the idea is that all our works of righteousness - note we are seeking God as a work of righteousness - are as fility rags.

No, that is just the Calvinist redefinition to fit their doctrine. Remember Noah found favor in God's eyes, so a fallen heart does not preclude seeking God.

And another point, regeneration means to be re-originated or born again. Thus when we are spiritually dead, and made alive, we are regenerated, reborn. We are reborn when we are put in Christ, Ephesians 2:5, made alive together with Christ. When we are separated from God we are dead, when we are united with Christ we are alive. Noah was not made alive, united with Christ, regenerated before Christ died on the cross. Hebrews 11:39-40.

Yet another definitional argument, defining and equating a carnal mind with total spiritual inability. All sizzle and no steak. You have no idea of what this verse actually says. I will get to it after you deal with Matthew 13 and Matthew 23.


More ad homenim arguments from the fellow who said lets stick with the Bible.

No you have referenced the usual suspects and claimed they say what you have added and redefined.

Matthew 23:13 says total spiritual inability does not fit with the teachings of Jesus.

Ahh, Shakespeare!

 

[Herald]

By Herald: No serious Bible student should disagree that men can seek God; even unregenerate sinners.

Van,

Please make sure you're quoting me in context (from the new thread I created). What I wrote was:

No serious Bible student should disagree that men can seek God; even unregenerate sinners. I'm very upfront about my convictions. This is not an impartial post. I hold to the doctrines of grace and believe that regeneration precedes justification. But this thread has to do with whether unregenerate sinners can seek God on their own, i.e. without God first prevailing upon their heart through the person of the Holy Spirit.

Thanks.

 

[Van]

Hi Herald, your "prevailing upon their heart" sophistry may be code for "quickening" which is code for regeneration. But then what you wrote makes no sense, i.e even unregenerate sinners after regeneration.

Now if prevailing upon their heart is code for revelatory grace, God providing revelation and not supernatural enabling, then I did quote you in context. We love Him because He first loved us and you learn that through revelation. If we behold Him high and lifted up, i.e. hanging on the cross, we are drawn to the One who died for us and not only for us, but also for the whole world.

 

[Herald]

Hi Herald, your "prevailing upon their heart" sophistry may be code for "quickening" which is code for regeneration. But then what you wrote makes no sense, i.e even unregenerate sinners after regeneration.

Now if prevailing upon their heart is code for revelatory grace, God providing revelation and not supernatural enabling, then I did quote you in context. We love Him because He first loved us and you learn that through revelation. If we behold Him high and lifted up, i.e. hanging on the cross, we are drawn to the One who died for us and not only for us, but also for the whole world.

With all due respect my only concern in this thread is your quoting me out of context from another thread.

Good day.