Ahh, Shakespeare!
False face must hide what false heart doth know! There's the rub.
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Ahh, Shakespeare!
I showed you actual scripture that says kings Asa and Hezekiah sought God. Your argument that they were regenerated is an argument from silence, no such thing is said.
Oh, but the scriptures do say a person comes to God in an unregenerate state.
Jhn 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Jesus said a man has to come to him to have life. You teach the nonsensical doctrine that a man must be made alive so he is able to come to God so that he can be made alive. Total nonsense.
Give me a break, millions of Christians believe as I do, you call them Arminians. I do not call myself Arminian because I believe in Preservation of the Saints, they believe in Perseverance of the Saints which is quite different. But Arminians believe the unregenerate can come to God in faith and be saved.
No, the will and ability are not the same. I have never had the will to jump off a tall building, but I am able to do so.
:laugh:However, if I were to spend a week with you, I may become willing to jump. :tongue3:
This is not so, if a robber stuck a gun in my face and demanded my wallet, I would give it to him, but that is not my greatest desire. My greatest desire is to both stay alive AND keep my wallet.
Oh, I would settle to save my life and give up my wallet, nevertheless that is not my greatest desire.
Calvinists love to point out that the young rich ruler was not willing to give up his riches and follow Jesus, but they ignore that the disciples gave up everything, their professions and even their families to follow Jesus. So, some men will will one thing, some will will another.
Then you believe an impossibility. No man can be regenerated or spiritually alive until his sins are forgiven,
and no man can have his sins forgiven until he believes on Jesus.
The scriptures are clear that we are justified by faith.
But you believe a man is made spiritually alive before he has believed and been justified.
You believe a man can be spiritually alive while he is still dead in trespasses and sins.
Faith must precede regeneration, because your sins must be forgiven before you can be spiritually alive.
Why do you persist in falsehood? You have never shown even one verse of scripture that says a man must be regenerated to be made able to believe. No Calvinist has ever shown this, if they did, the debate would be over.
You have NEVER shown one single verse of scripture that says a man must be regenerated to have the ability to believe. That is impossible, because no such verse exists. You haven't shown it before, and you won't show it in the future. You just falsely claim that you have shown it, but you haven't. No Calvinist has done this in 400 years, it is an argument from silence that you detest so much.
I sought the Lord, and afterward I knew
He moved my soul to seek Him, seeking me.
It was not I that found, O Savior true;
No, I was found of Thee.
The Bible teaches that regeneration MUST and DOES precede faith.
Let’s begin with MUST:
Romans 8:7-8
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
The carnal mind is the ONLY mind that the unregenerate man has. And it is enmity with God. It is NOT SUBJECT to the law of God- NEITHER INDEED CAN BE.
Therefore, a man must be endowed with something MORE than JUST a carnal mind in order to ever be subject to the law of God; in order to ever do anything that is not enmity against God.
So long as all a man has is a carnal mind, he CANNOT COME TO GOD; HE CANNOT BE ANYTHING OTHER THAN AN ENEMY OF GOD and he CANNOT DO ANYHTING BUT BE DISOBEDIENT IN HIS HEART TOWARD GOD.
So, what must happen so that a man who heretofore has only ever had a carnal mind may come to God? A supernatural work must take place. Something spiritual must come to life in him if he is to come to God.
That’s why regeneration MUST precede faith.
I Corinthians 2:4
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Here it is again. The natural man is all there is before the new birth. Before the new birth all a man is, is natural and carnal. As an exclusively natural man he absolutely cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God. Particularly, in context here, Paul is speaking of his preaching of the Gospel when he first came to Corinth (2:1). He was saying that no man who is natural can receive or understand the Gospel.
Before a natural man can receive the Gospel he must become something MORE than just NATURAL. Something spiritual must come to life within him if he is to receive the things of the Spirit of God.
That’s why regeneration MUST precede faith.
We could literally go on and on with verses like these that illustrate the severe depravity of man which NECESSITATES something spiritual coming to life in him in order that he might turn to God. We could point out that Paul says in Ephesians 2:1 that sinners are DEAD in their trespasses and sins and concludes in verse 8 because of this that every part of salvation is a gift of God- grace and FAITH.
Why is faith a gift of God? Because people DEAD in their sins are in no shape to exercise saving faith.
This is why Philippians 2:13 says, “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” God does not just enable us to DO his good pleasure. No. God also enables us to WILL to do his good pleasure. We would NEVER WILL to do his pleasure if he did not work that will IN US.
If God does do this NO DEPRAVED MAN WILL EVER SEEK AFTER GOD. God must give us the WILL to do his good please.
This is why John 1:12-13 says, “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
They were not born again as any act of the human will. It was all of God. Why? Because it HAD to be. Because the carnal mind is enmity with God and is not subject to the law of God neither indeed CAN it be. Because the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God NEITHER CAN HE KNOW THEM.
We could go on and on.
But this skimming of the surface of this first point, that regeneration MUST precede faith, will have to be sufficient for now.
Next we will show that the Bible not only demonstrates that it MUST be this way, but we will show that the Bible declares quite clearly that regeneration DOES precede faith.
I see yet another shoddy effort at bible study. John 3:3 and the meaning of the word see. Never mind in the passage it is used interchangeably with enter. Lets assert what it really means is you cannot be aware of heaven unless you are born again. Contextual? Nope. Based on the word meaning? Nope. The form of the word translated "see" refers to a face to face meeting, such as "see" the doctor or dentist. Thus to see heaven face to face you must enter. This is the meaning of the verse. Calvinists must redefine words, in this case see, to support their false doctrine as should be becoming obvious to any objective reader.
What you don't have is a passage of Scripture in the whole Bible that says that people who are dead in their sins go seeking after God.
So to say that when Jesus was saying that these people will not come to him that they might have eternal life (salvation) proves that there is NTHER KIND OF LIFE before salvation (especially spiritual life) is just not viable.
So, if the Bible in numerous places teaches that sinners without God are so dead in their sins that they must be made alive so that they CAN come to Christ, then we know that every time the Bible shows someone coming to Christ, whether or not it SAYS EVERY SINGLE TIME that they were regenerated first, we know they had to have been regenerated first.
Next, we have yet another bogus definitional argument, redefining being spiritually dead as total spiritual inability. But all such claims are without any actual basis in the text.
Winman:
The following Scripture does a good job in response to the above remarks. You have seen it before and I expect the same "talking points".
John 3:3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
see [Strongs #1492]
From Thayers
eidw eido i'-do or
oida oida oy'-da
a root word; TDNT - 5:116, 673; v
KJV - know 281, cannot tell + 3756 8, know how 7, wist 6, misc 19, see 314, behold 17, look 6, perceive 5, vr see 3, vr know 1; 667
1) to see
1a) to perceive with the eyes
1b) to perceive by any of the senses
1c) to perceive, notice, discern, discover
1d) to see
1d1) i.e. to turn the eyes, the mind, the attention to anything
1d2) to pay attention, observe
1d3) to see about something
1d31) i.e. to ascertain what must be done about it
1d4) to inspect, examine
1d5) to look at, behold
1e) to experience any state or condition
1f) to see i.e. have an interview with, to visit
2) to know
2a) to know of anything
2b) to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand, perceive
2b1) of any fact
2b2) the force and meaning of something which has definite meaning
2b3) to know how, to be skilled in
2c) to have regard for one, cherish, pay attention to (1Th 5:12)
You are not thinking critically Luke. A person is either alive or dead, there is nothing inbetween. Until a person believes on Jesus they are dead in sins. The wages of sin is DEATH. DEATH passed upon all men for that all men have SINNED. Until your sins are forgiven you are DEAD.
No person can have spiritual life until they first believe. The moment they believe, their sins are forgiven and NOW they have life. Faith must precede regeneration.
All scriptures says this, I could show you a dozen verses that say the person who believes shall not perish BUT HAVE (following, as a result of) life.
You cannot show one verse that says life precedes faith because it is impossible.
Read John 3:3ff and Ephesians 2:1-10.Well, quit talking about it and show it. You can't. There is no such verse in all the Bible. And, as I just explained, it is impossible, you cannot have spiritual life whatsoever as long as you are dead in your sins, and no man is justified until he first believes. Dozens of verses say this, John 3:16, John 20:31...
Luke the spiritually dead can respond to God's call.
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Luke, "the dead" can hear the word of God. And those that hear and come to Jesus shall live.
John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Luke, Calvinism teaches that a person must be made alive so that they are able to come to Jesus so that they might be made alive. Can't you see how ridiculous and illogical that is?
No, the scriptures show the dead can hear Jesus and those that hear and believe shall be made alive. Only after a person believes and their sins are forgiven can they possibly have spiritual life.
Use your head.
Old Regular is "replying to this thread", and he's gonna attempt to show me wrong. Just watch.
Different Greek word; different meaning.Lastly did I say "enter" was used in John 3:3? Nope. I said the word translated "see" is used interchangeably with enter, but did not provide the reference to John 3:5.
The idea being presented is we must be born again to enter heaven, and to assert the idea is to be aware of heaven is just another example of shoddy bible study.
Many of us, including myself, DO BELIEVE that a man can be regenerated long before he is saved.
Scripture teaches that a person must be Born Again in order to respond to the Gospel.
Different Greek word; different meaning.
It was Jesus Christ, not me, who said "see the kingdom of God." So! can we assume you are accusing Jesus Christ of being "shoddy" in His Revelation as recorded by the Apostle John? You will have to take your problem up with Jesus Christ! Given these circumstances the mentioned of your "ego" and is not that fancy word "ad homenim".