Take heed brethren!!!

[DHK]

Yes, and Jesus stated it is the work of God.

But why did he state it is the work of God?
Why was believing considered the work of God, and not one thing that they could do considered a work of God?

 

[McCree79]

But why did he state it is the work of God?
Why was believing considered the work of God, and not one thing that they could do considered a work of God?

|For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

*work of God, not man

 

[DHK]

|For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

*work of God, not man

For by grace are you saved.
For through faith are you saved.
Salvation is not of your own doing.
Salvation is the gift of God.
Salvation is not of works.
In salvation no one can boast.

Thus faith is not a work.

Salvation is a gift. It is to be received by faith. One is saved by faith, not of works.

 

[DHK]

They asked what can we do to work the works of God.
Jesus replied that the only work they could do was to believe on the name of Him that sent him.

There was no work they could do--nothing; nada; zero, zilch.
It was a play on words. There were no works, not even faith (for faith is not a work). That was the point he was making. It was a play on words, irony.
Even if faith was a work, they could not consider it a work. For there was no work that would get them to heaven.
So here is what would get them to heaven:
Not works: But believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.

Faith in the Bible is a gift. In 1Cor.12 it is spoken of as a spiritual gift.
Faith in the Bible is one of the fruits of the Spirit (Gal.5)

The Calvinist says that faith is a gift of God given to the regenerated in order that he might be able to believe and be saved. Thus it is a gift without which he can be saved.
If you are making the point here that faith is a work according to John 6:29, then you believe according to your own Calvinist theology that salvation is by works, for faith is necessary for salvation.
You can't have it both ways.
Either you believe it is a gift or you believe it is a work?
Which is it? Is salvation a gift or is it by works? Which do you believe?

 

[kyredneck]

Brother Steaver,...

Steaver may be your brother in the eternal sense, but he stands against many basic beliefs you have in God in the temporal sense.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Steaver may be your brother in the eternal sense, but he stands against many basic beliefs you have in God in the temporal sense.

He is not in your camp Joseph when it is about election & DoG.:love2:

 

[McCree79]

For by grace are you saved.
For through faith are you saved.
Salvation is not of your own doing.
Salvation is the gift of God.
Salvation is not of works.
In salvation no one can boast.

Thus faith is not a work.

Salvation is a gift. It is to be received by faith. One is saved by faith, not of works.

Faith is not a work of man. It is of God, per Jesus. “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom*he has sent"

 

[convicted1]

Amen Bro. McCree. Keep posting those solid postings. :thumbs:

 

[DHK]

Faith is not a work of man. It is of God, per Jesus. “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom*he has sent"

So what does a believer do?
A work of man or a work of God?
What about prayer, reading the Bible, etc. What constitutes a work of God?

 

[McCree79]

So what does a believer do?
A work of man or a work of God?
What about prayer, reading the Bible, etc. What constitutes a work of God?

Salvation in its entirety is of God. That is the work of God. Anything that proceeds from faith is "good". A lost soul can do nothing but sin. The only people who can do pleasing works in this eyes of God are his redeemed children. The works of man can not save. The work of God saves. No lost man can do can be anything but sinful in the eyes of the Father.

You(saved child) can read the Bible and that is a "good" work, if done for the love of God. A lost soul lacks that love and even an outwardly good act is a sin to the Father. The lost is at enmity with God.

Romans 14:23b; "For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin".

Romans 3:12 "All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
*NNE DOES GOOD*,
not even one.”

 

[convicted1]

So, how did Lucifer stop believing then -- you know, before he got kicked out of heaven?

Lucifer ain't Satan, fyi....


That's Nebuchudnezzer(sp?)...king of Babylon....

 

[convicted1]

http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=11&article=1091

But is Satan “Lucifer”?

No, he is not. The context into which verse 12 fits begins in verse 4 where God told Isaiah to “take up this parable against the king of Babylon, and say, ‘How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!’” In his commentary on Isaiah, Albert Barnes explained that God’s wrath was kindled against the king because the ruler “intended not to acknowledge any superior either in heaven or earth, but designed that himself and his laws should be regarded as supreme” (1950, 1:272). The chest-pounding boast of the impudent potentate was:

I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; and I will sit upon the mount of congregation, in the uttermost parts of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High (vss. 13-14).
As a result of his egotistical self-deification, the pagan monarch eventually would experience both the collapse of his kingdom and the loss of his life—an ignominious end that is described in vivid and powerful terms. “Sheol from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming,” the prophet proclaimed to the once-powerful king. And when the ruler finally descends into his eternal grave, captives of that hidden realm will taunt him by saying, “Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms?” (vs. 16). He is denominated as a “man” (vs. 16) who would die in disrepute and whose body would be buried, not in a king’s sarcophagus, but in pits reserved for the downtrodden masses (vss. 19-20). Worms would eat his body, and hedgehogs would trample his grave (vss. 11,23).

 

[DHK]

Salvation in its entirety is of God. That is the work of God. Anything that proceeds from faith is "good". A lost soul can do nothing but sin. The only people who can do pleasing works in this eyes of God are his redeemed children. The works of man can not save. The work of God saves. No lost man can do can be anything but sinful in the eyes of the Father.

You(saved child) can read the Bible and that is a "good" work, if done for the love of God. A lost soul lacks that love and even an outwardly good act is a sin to the Father. The lost is at enmity with God.

Romans 14:23b; "For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin".

Romans 3:12 "All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
*NNE DOES GOOD*,
not even one.”

I don't disagree that salvation is the work of God.
If salvation is all the work of God, then faith is a "work of God" as well isn't it?
Therefore a man is saved by faith (which isn't a work).

 

[PreachTony]

Salvation in its entirety is of God. That is the work of God.

McCree, does you church evangelize? I'm just curious. I've yet hear a thoroughly good explanation from a Calvinist or a Predestinationist (yes, I created a word) explaining why evangelism is even necessary. After all, if salvation is all of God, and there is nothing that mankind can do in salvation, if we cannot accept or reject Him, if we cannot even refuse to open the door when He knocks, then even believing the preached word isn't necessary.

Anything that proceeds from faith is "good". A lost soul can do nothing but sin. The only people who can do pleasing works in this eyes of God are his redeemed children. The works of man can not save. The work of God saves. No lost man can do can be anything but sinful in the eyes of the Father.

I take it then that you believe that Asa, Jehoshaphat, Uzziah, Jotham, Hezekiah, and Josiah were all saved...the Bible accounts that they "did that which was right in the sight of the Lord." Were they redeemed? If they were, then they had to have been redeemed through the law, as atonement available through Christ was not yet preached. Yet we're told in the NT that the letter (the law) killeth, but the Spirit giveth life. As an addendum, Josiah took the throne at the age of eight, yet did that which was right to God. Was Josiah born in a redeemed state, if he was right with God already at the age of eight? Or was he just saved at a very early age in a time in which no one was preaching salvation, but were instead going by the old law?

You(saved child) can read the Bible and that is a "good" work, if done for the love of God. A lost soul lacks that love and even an outwardly good act is a sin to the Father. The lost is at enmity with God.

Romans 14:23b; "For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin".

Romans 3:12 "All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
*NNE DOES GOOD*,
not even one.”

So every act of the lost is sin? Everything a lost person does is sin? So when I was lost (I was saved at the age of ten), everything I did was sin? That's a hard line to walk...and one that I don't believe scripture will back up. Man can be in depravity in his sin, but that does not mean that every action of that man has to be sin. Otherwise you have people performing genuinely good and kind acts, like helping someone in need, and you are calling that sin.

 

[convicted1]

McCree, does you church evangelize? I'm just curious. I've yet hear a thoroughly good explanation from a Calvinist or a Predestinationist (yes, I created a word) explaining why evangelism is even necessary. After all, if salvation is all of God, and there is nothing that mankind can do in salvation, if we cannot accept or reject Him, if we cannot even refuse to open the door when He knocks, then even believing the preached word isn't necessary.

We evangelize because Christ commanded us to. God has sheep that need to hear the gospel. The gospel saves...Rom. 1:16, 1 Cor. 1:21, & Eph. 1:13. God does the work of regenerating the sinner. In this quickening, the gift of faith and repentance are also given. This is done via the preaching of the gospel. Romans 10 actually supports gospel regeneration.

I take it then that you believe that Asa, Jehoshaphat, Uzziah, Jotham, Hezekiah, and Josiah were all saved...the Bible accounts that they "did that which was right in the sight of the Lord." Were they redeemed? If they were, then they had to have been redeemed through the law, as atonement available through Christ was not yet preached. Yet we're told in the NT that the letter (the law) killeth, but the Spirit giveth life. As an addendum, Josiah took the throne at the age of eight, yet did that which was right to God. Was Josiah born in a redeemed state, if he was right with God already at the age of eight? Or was he just saved at a very early age in a time in which no one was preaching salvation, but were instead going by the old law?

Were the 12 Disciples saved prior to the crucifixion?

So every act of the lost is sin? Everything a lost person does is sin? So when I was lost (I was saved at the age of ten), everything I did was sin? That's a hard line to walk...and one that I don't believe scripture will back up. Man can be in depravity in his sin, but that does not mean that every action of that man has to be sin. Otherwise you have people performing genuinely good and kind acts, like helping someone in need, and you are calling that sin.

Sinners taint good deeds, thereby making them tainted by sin. Look at it like this...find a white shirt and handle it with dirty hands. Is it still white and untainted? Nope. Same with the 'good deeds' of sinners. God sees sinners through their sins, not their good deeds..


I know this wasn't addressed to me, but I wanted to chime in...

 

[kyredneck]

Romans 10 actually supports gospel regeneration.'''

It supports gospel salvation. It does NOT support gospel regeneration.

 

[convicted1]

It supports gospel salvation. It does NOT support gospel regeneration.

I disagree. No gospel, no salvation...

 

[convicted1]

It supports gospel salvation. It does NOT support gospel regeneration.

What I mean is no one is saved outside the preaching of the gospel...

 

[PreachTony]

We evangelize because Christ commanded us to. God has sheep that need to hear the gospel. The gospel saves...Rom. 1:16, 1 Cor. 1:21, & Eph. 1:13. God does the work of regenerating the sinner. In this quickening, the gift of faith and repentance are also given. This is done via the preaching of the gospel. Romans 10 actually supports gospel regeneration.

While it's clear that you and I don't see eye to eye on this, at least you admit the preaching is necessary. McCree probably does too. It was more the wording that got me. McCree said that salvation is solely of God. You say that it's regeneration that is of God. It's splitting hairs, I'll admit. If you believe that a regenerated person cannot help but be saved, and will be saved, then we're basically back in the boat we started in.

I'm guessing that you believe being born again happens prior to salvation while my side views the two events as essentially one and the same. It's difficult to see the necessity of evangelism if God has already determined who will be saved and who won't, and has already sealed them in Election. From an exterior perspective, these folks are already sealed. They cannot lose their election. If the gospel is required under Calvinist Election in order to insure salvation, then we have to note that God set aside vast numbers of humanity for eternal torment and damnation simply because they were born in places the gospel would not reach for hundreds and hundreds of years.

Were the 12 Disciples saved prior to the crucifixion?

I suppose I can't say. I believe that there was salvation prior to the preaching of Christ's gospel, as David wrote "restore unto me the joy of thy salvation." It's more in the mechanics of it, and how it came about, given the circumstances of the day.

Sinners taint good deeds, thereby making them tainted by sin. Look at it like this...find a white shirt and handle it with dirty hands. Is it still white and untainted? Nope. Same with the 'good deeds' of sinners. God sees sinners through their sins, not their good deeds..

This is different from what McCree said. You admit that they are good deeds, though tainted by sin. McCree pitched an argument that they were sin. That might not have been McCree's intent, and if it was not then I will make amends for misreading...but there is a difference between something being outright sin and something being a good deed that was tainted by sin.

I know this wasn't addressed to me, but I wanted to chime in...

I'm glad you did, Bro. Willis. I've said before I enjoy talking about this kind of thing with you.

 

[McCree79]

I don't disagree that salvation is the work of God.
If salvation is all the work of God, then faith is a "work of God" as well isn't it?
Therefore a man is saved by faith (which isn't a work).

Faith isn't a work of man. It is the work of God. So, yes, the faith you exercise is not a work(towards salvation) of DHK or McCree. The work involved in Faith is done my God. He regenerates us....he gives us the faith. I do agree with you that faith of man is not a work. However, I believe it is a work of God. Somebody had to do work. I believe it is God. Without God we would have no faith.....heck, we would have nothing to have faith in.