Take heed brethren!!!

[McCree79]

McCree, does you church evangelize? I'm just curious. I've yet hear a thoroughly good explanation from a Calvinist or a Predestinationist (yes, I created a word) explaining why evangelism is even necessary. After all, if salvation is all of God, and there is nothing that mankind can do in salvation, if we cannot accept or reject Him, if we cannot even refuse to open the door when He knocks, then even believing the preached word isn't necessary.


I take it then that you believe that Asa, Jehoshaphat, Uzziah, Jotham, Hezekiah, and Josiah were all saved...the Bible accounts that they "did that which was right in the sight of the Lord." Were they redeemed? If they were, then they had to have been redeemed through the law, as atonement available through Christ was not yet preached. Yet we're told in the NT that the letter (the law) killeth, but the Spirit giveth life. As an addendum, Josiah took the throne at the age of eight, yet did that which was right to God. Was Josiah born in a redeemed state, if he was right with God already at the age of eight? Or was he just saved at a very early age in a time in which no one was preaching salvation, but were instead going by the old law?


So every act of the lost is sin? Everything a lost person does is sin? So when I was lost (I was saved at the age of ten), everything I did was sin? That's a hard line to walk...and one that I don't believe scripture will back up. Man can be in depravity in his sin, but that does not mean that every action of that man has to be sin. Otherwise you have people performing genuinely good and kind acts, like helping someone in need, and you are calling that sin.

I will address the first part(evangelism). I am on my cell phone and dont know how to separate your response.

Yes we do....we are even guilty of throwing Easter Egg hunts and having "beast feast events". We have done door to door and have month events in the county for men and separate for woman. I draw some "heat" from other D.O.G. believers for this stuff.....but here is why we do it.

As a "Calvinist", I do not know who the elect are. The elect still need to hear the word. The elect still must make a decision after regeneration. God gives them a new inclination, a new nature. They must then use that God given nature to choose him. The only way they know what to choose is hearing. So a Calvinist needs to share with everyone. We do not know who the elect are. ALL need to be treated that way.

 

[McCree79]

McCree, does you church evangelize? I'm just curious. I've yet hear a thoroughly good explanation from a Calvinist or a Predestinationist (yes, I created a word) explaining why evangelism is even necessary. After all, if salvation is all of God, and there is nothing that mankind can do in salvation, if we cannot accept or reject Him, if we cannot even refuse to open the door when He knocks, then even believing the preached word isn't necessary.


I take it then that you believe that Asa, Jehoshaphat, Uzziah, Jotham, Hezekiah, and Josiah were all saved...the Bible accounts that they "did that which was right in the sight of the Lord." Were they redeemed? If they were, then they had to have been redeemed through the law, as atonement available through Christ was not yet preached. Yet we're told in the NT that the letter (the law) killeth, but the Spirit giveth life. As an addendum, Josiah took the throne at the age of eight, yet did that which was right to God. Was Josiah born in a redeemed state, if he was right with God already at the age of eight? Or was he just saved at a very early age in a time in which no one was preaching salvation, but were instead going by the old law?


So every act of the lost is sin? Everything a lost person does is sin? So when I was lost (I was saved at the age of ten), everything I did was sin? That's a hard line to walk...and one that I don't believe scripture will back up. Man can be in depravity in his sin, but that does not mean that every action of that man has to be sin. Otherwise you have people performing genuinely good and kind acts, like helping someone in need, and you are calling that sin.

Your second part.....dealing with atonement. God had an ordained process for Atonement in the OT. Also, did they not have faith as well? I shameful admit I am drawing a blank on the stories of a few you listed.

 

[McCree79]

McCree, does you church evangelize? I'm just curious. I've yet hear a thoroughly good explanation from a Calvinist or a Predestinationist (yes, I created a word) explaining why evangelism is even necessary. After all, if salvation is all of God, and there is nothing that mankind can do in salvation, if we cannot accept or reject Him, if we cannot even refuse to open the door when He knocks, then even believing the preached word isn't necessary.


I take it then that you believe that Asa, Jehoshaphat, Uzziah, Jotham, Hezekiah, and Josiah were all saved...the Bible accounts that they "did that which was right in the sight of the Lord." Were they redeemed? If they were, then they had to have been redeemed through the law, as atonement available through Christ was not yet preached. Yet we're told in the NT that the letter (the law) killeth, but the Spirit giveth life. As an addendum, Josiah took the throne at the age of eight, yet did that which was right to God. Was Josiah born in a redeemed state, if he was right with God already at the age of eight? Or was he just saved at a very early age in a time in which no one was preaching salvation, but were instead going by the old law?


So every act of the lost is sin? Everything a lost person does is sin? So when I was lost (I was saved at the age of ten), everything I did was sin? That's a hard line to walk...and one that I don't believe scripture will back up. Man can be in depravity in his sin, but that does not mean that every action of that man has to be sin. Otherwise you have people performing genuinely good and kind acts, like helping someone in need, and you are calling that sin.

You last part, sin of the lost. Scripture seems clear that the lost can do nothing but sin. Romans 14:23b; "For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin".

 

[DHK]

Faith isn't a work of man. It is the work of God. So, yes, the faith you exercise is not a work(towards salvation) of DHK or McCree. The work involved in Faith is done my God. He regenerates us....he gives us the faith. I do agree with you that faith of man is not a work. However, I believe it is a work of God. Somebody had to do work. I believe it is God. Without God we would have no faith.....heck, we would have nothing to have faith in.

What else is considered "works of God" besides faith?

 

[PreachTony]

Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I understand the limits of working off a cellphone...and I still have an old dumb phone.

I do want to ask a question, though:

As a "Calvinist", I do not know who the elect are. The elect still need to hear the word. The elect still must make a decision after regeneration. God gives them a new inclination, a new nature. They must then use that God given nature to choose him. The only way they know what to choose is hearing. So a Calvinist needs to share with everyone. We do not know who the elect are. ALL need to be treated that way.

Is it possible for a regenerated person to reject Christ?

 

[McCree79]

Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I understand the limits of working off a cellphone...and I still have an old dumb phone.

I do want to ask a question, though:


Is it possible for a regenerated person to reject Christ?

I would say no....not for any length of time anyway. Why would they? If there inclination, the disposition is changed, why would they say no? They WANT to choose him.

 

[McCree79]

What else is considered "works of God" besides faith?

Lots of things, creation of life, creation of the earth. He is the potter, we are the clay living in a clay world. .....anything in particular you have in mind?

 

[PreachTony]

I would say no....not for any length of time anyway. Why would they? If there inclination, the disposition is changed, why would they say no? They WANT to choose him.

Okay. You say a regenerated person cannot reject God, but you added a caveat of "not for any length of time anyway." The reason I ask is that so many Calvinists act as though man cannot help but be saved after regeneration, so it stands to reason to me that man has no choice. Even in a regenerated state, they are not actually choosing to accept Him, as they cannot choose reject Him.

Does that make sense?

 

[DHK]

Lots of things, creation of life, creation of the earth. He is the potter, we are the clay living in a clay world. .....anything in particular you have in mind?

I figured you would respond that way.
Yes. Does a believer do the works of God? If not, what purpose does he have?
For example: being a witness, prayer, praise, bible study?
Are not all these "the works of God," as well?

 

[McCree79]

Okay. You say a regenerated person cannot reject God, but you added a caveat of "not for any length of time anyway." The reason I ask is that so many Calvinists act as though man cannot help but be saved after regeneration, so it stands to reason to me that man has no choice. Even in a regenerated state, they are not actually choosing to accept Him, as they cannot choose reject Him.

Does that make sense?

It is still a choice. A choice you make freely. One has new disposition of the heart....he wants Jesus. It is the only choice he will make, but a choice the same.

 

[McCree79]

I figured you would respond that way.
Yes. Does a believer do the works of God? If not, what purpose does he have?
For example: being a witness, prayer, praise, bible study?
Are not all these "the works of God," as well?

Oh, I think I misunderstood the question. I didn't dodge on purpose You are asking do we do the work of God. I assume you mean after salvation?We are instruments used to serve God in his work. I would say we do work "for" God. He does the saving, we are the messengers.

Prayer: Prayer is for us. Obviously a work. A good work in fact. A good work that proceeds from faith. The same can apply to witnessing as well. These are works that do not save, but works that show evidence of Christ in your life.

 

[DHK]

Oh, I think I misunderstood the question. I didn't dodge on purpose You are asking do we do the work of God. I assume you mean after salvation?We are instruments used to serve God in his work. I would say we do work "for" God. He does the saving, we are the messengers.

Prayer: Prayer is for us. Obviously a work. A good work in fact. A good work that proceeds from faith. The same can apply to witnessing as well. These are works that do not save, but works that show evidence of Christ in your life.

Grammatically speaking "work of God," is God's work."
Salvation is God's work. God has done His work on the cross; His work in us.

Our work, (doing His work) is to tell of God's work to others that they also might receive it by faith.

This is the one "work" that they can do:
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
--In fact Jesus made it imperative for them to do so.

There is no other way but through Christ.
"I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes unto the Father but by me."
And very clearly he said:
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
--If you believe you shall be saved; if you don't believe you shall be damned.
He gave us that choice.

He provided the salvation. It was His work; His gift; and He offers it free, without cost to all who will receive it. There is no cost, no work involved. But it must be received by faith. That is not work.

Christ paid the purchase price. Atonement has been made. Still the gift of salvation must be received. It is by faith.
He that believes not shall be damned. If one is so arrogant as to throw faith out the window what will he say when he stands before the One whom he has not believed?

 

[McCree79]

Grammatically speaking "work of God," is God's work."
Salvation is God's work. God has done His work on the cross; His work in us.

Our work, (doing His work) is to tell of God's work to others that they also might receive it by faith.

This is the one "work" that they can do:
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
--In fact Jesus made it imperative for them to do so.

There is no other way but through Christ.
"I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes unto the Father but by me."
And very clearly he said:
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
--If you believe you shall be saved; if you don't believe you shall be damned.
He gave us that choice.

He provided the salvation. It was His work; His gift; and He offers it free, without cost to all who will receive it. There is no cost, no work involved. But it must be received by faith. That is not work.

Christ paid the purchase price. Atonement has been made. Still the gift of salvation must be received. It is by faith.
He that believes not shall be damned. If one is so arrogant as to throw faith out the window what will he say when he stands before the One whom he has not believed?

I agree with you that faith is needed. Absolutely. I just hold to our faith must also be of God. If it is of man, I see that as a work of man, not of God.

On this quote:
"He provided the salvation. It was His work; His gift; and He offers it free, without cost to all who will receive it. There is no cost, no work involved. But it must be received by faith. That is not work. ". Not a work of man. Absolutely agree with you there. But it is a work of God. God does the work.

On this one:
"This is the one "work" that they can do:
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
--In fact Jesus made it imperative for them to do so."

Later on in the chapter, the ask how they can get faith in Jesus. He tells them, you see me and do not believe. Then goes on to say, "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out." They do not believe, because they Father has given them faith. This was not a work they could do. God has to give them to Jesus. God has to do the work. God has to give them faith.

I may not be able to reply again tonight DHK. I will check in the morning.

 

[Yeshua1]

Grammatically speaking "work of God," is God's work."
Salvation is God's work. God has done His work on the cross; His work in us.

Our work, (doing His work) is to tell of God's work to others that they also might receive it by faith.

This is the one "work" that they can do:
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
--In fact Jesus made it imperative for them to do so.

There is no other way but through Christ.
"I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes unto the Father but by me."
And very clearly he said:
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
--If you believe you shall be saved; if you don't believe you shall be damned.
He gave us that choice.

He provided the salvation. It was His work; His gift; and He offers it free, without cost to all who will receive it. There is no cost, no work involved. But it must be received by faith. That is not work.

Christ paid the purchase price. Atonement has been made. Still the gift of salvation must be received. It is by faith.
He that believes not shall be damned. If one is so arrogant as to throw faith out the window what will he say when he stands before the One whom he has not believed?

On that foundational truth both arminians and calvinist can agree upon, as the just shall live by faith, and he who calls upon the Lord shall be saved!

A sinner is transformed into a saint, and taken into kingdom of Jesus the very moment he receives jesus thru faith...

For it is by grace alone, thru faith alone, ye are saved, correct?

 

[convicted1]

Bro. Tony,


To answer your question towards me about good deeds, go to 2 Samuel 6 and read about Uzzah. He was an Levite and they had the responsibility of the priesthood and taking care of the Ark of the Covenant. When it began to fall, he touched it and placed it back on the carriage. To us, that's a good deed. Yet, no one was allowed to touch it, and God killed him.

What we see as good deeds and what God sees as good deeds are two entirely two different things...

 

[Rebel]

Lucifer ain't Satan, fyi....


That's Nebuchudnezzer(sp?)...king of Babylon....

That just avoids my point. Care to address it?

 

[convicted1]

That just avoids my point. Care to address it?

No...............

 

[Rebel]

No...............

I didn't think so.

 

[convicted1]

I didn't think so.

You stated your position is settled, so I won't waste both of our times.

 

[tyndale1946]

I am also of the PB brethren but you all seem to forget where this saving Faith came from!

Hebrews 12;1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

He was not only the author but he is the finisher also!... Its our faith because he gave it to us by a changing our hearts, it didn't come any other way!...Tell me when did you change your cold and stony heart to believe in Christ?... John 3:16... The word believeth is past tense!... ITS ALLTHE WORK OF CHRIST ALONE!... Brother Glen