Talk to me about, soul.

[percho]

I assume there has to be a moment in time when soul comes into existence.
Once soul comes into existence I guess we could then say, the soul even though I probably would disagree, I am an are soul.

If the soul has a beginning is it absolutely necessary after becoming a soul for the soul to have an habitation? To exist does the soul have to have either an earthly house of tabernacle or a heavenly house of tabernacle.

Can soul exist (living) without a place of habitation? Is not a soul without a habitation a dead soul?

What enabled it to exist in the first place?

It just dawned on me, I think I am asking, Which came first the chicken of the egg? Or almost.

 

[Greektim]

I assume there has to be a moment in time when soul comes into existence.
Once soul comes into existence I guess we could then say, the soul even though I probably would disagree, I am an are soul.

If the soul has a beginning is it absolutely necessary after becoming a soul for the soul to have an habitation? To exist does the soul have to have either an earthly house of tabernacle or a heavenly house of tabernacle.

Can soul exist (living) without a place of habitation? Is not a soul without a habitation a dead soul?

What enabled it to exist in the first place?

It just dawned on me, I think I am asking, Which came first the chicken of the egg? Or almost.

I wonder how much of your (our) concept of "soul" is related to Platonic thinking. What if the concept of the "soul" was nothing more than the core essence of a person (their conscience personality) which is retained after death and awaiting a future resurrection? Why does it have to be this immaterial, ethereal, spiritual "thing" that is more from Greek philosophy than anything else?

Just some ponderings.

 

[Iconoclast]

Which came first the chicken of the egg

The Chicken.....

21And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

 

[percho]

The Chicken.....

21And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Keep on trucking!

 

[Iconoclast]

9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:


I have speculated that there might be an intermediate body[lk16]...awaiting the resurrection of the last day.....but if the scripture does not tell us in more explicit ways...we do not need to know:thumbsup:

 

[convicted1]

When we die, our soul will leave the physical body, and either go up or down. When the Lord returns in the Cloud, He will bring the souls that had died in Him, with Him. When the graves burst open, the dead in Christ will rise first. Those who are alive and remain, will be changed in the moment and twinkling of an eye. The bodies that rise from the grave, will be given a new spiritual body, that will reunite with the soul that Jesus brings back in the Cloud. Those who are alive, when they are changed, their flesh will change from physical to spiritual and rise to meet Jesus in the Cloud.


Those who died lost, will also be raised, given a new body. Those who died lost, will be raised out of hell, and the soul and spiritual body will reunite, their guilty sentence rendered, and cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death. Those who are here on earth when Jesus returns, will die, a guilty sentence will be rendered, and also cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Greektim]

When we die, our soul will leave the physical body, and either go up or down. When the Lord returns in the Cloud, He will bring the souls that had died in Him, with Him. When the graves burst open, the dead in Christ will rise first. Those who are alive and remain, will be changed in the moment and twinkling of an eye. The bodies that rise from the grave, will be given a new spiritual body, that will reunite with the soul that Jesus brings back in the Cloud. Those who are alive, when they are changed, their flesh will change from physical to spiritual and rise to meet Jesus in the Cloud.


Those who died lost, will also be raised, given a new body. Those who died lost, will be raised out of hell, and the soul and spiritual body will reunite, their guilty sentence rendered, and cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death. Those who are here on earth when Jesus returns, will die, a guilty sentence will be rendered, and also cast into the lake of fire.

The above is what happens when you mix the Western world so heavily influenced by Plato w/ the Bible. Plus you are assuming many things in your explanation that have been passed down in tradition through the many years. That doesn't make you wrong. It just raises some red flags with me.

(1) This non-material, spiritual, can't-wrap-your-finger-around-it thing called "soul" (the immaterial part of man). Or to say it another way, your conception of "soul" as the immaterial part of a person is very Platonic. I'm not sure that Palestinians in the ANE thought of the word "soul" in that way. But I could be wrong.

(2) What does "spiritual body" even mean? Is it corporeal and physical? Then how is it "spiritual"? Is "spiritual" the best term to use for the resurrected body? You also said of those who are alive that "their flesh will change from physical to spiritual." That is even more blatant Platonic thought coming in line with gnosticism. I think I know what you mean, but you should pick your words more wisely on that one.

 

[convicted1]

The above is what happens when you mix the Western world so heavily influenced by Plato w/ the Bible. Plus you are assuming many things in your explanation that have been passed down in tradition through the many years. That doesn't make you wrong. It just raises some red flags with me.

(1) This non-material, spiritual, can't-wrap-your-finger-around-it thing called "soul" (the immaterial part of man). Or to say it another way, your conception of "soul" as the immaterial part of a person is very Platonic. I'm not sure that Palestinians in the ANE thought of the word "soul" in that way. But I could be wrong.

(2) What does "spiritual body" even mean? Is it corporeal and physical? Then how is it "spiritual"? Is "spiritual" the best term to use for the resurrected body? You also said of those who are alive that "their flesh will change from physical to spiritual." That is even more blatant Platonic thought coming in line with gnosticism. I think I know what you mean, but you should pick your words more wisely on that one.

I honestly have no idea what Plato thought/taught. Jesus stated in John 4 "My Father is Spirit". Jesus, the Son of God, Immanuel/Emmanuel, came in the likeness of sinful flesh, to die for us. When He went back to the Father, I believe, He is in His Spiritual flesh now. When He comes again in the Cloud, we will take on His likeness.

 

[Greektim]

I honestly have no idea what Plato thought/taught. Jesus stated in John 4 "My Father is Spirit". Jesus, the Son of God, Immanuel/Emmanuel, came in the likeness of sinful flesh, to die for us. When He went back to the Father, I believe, He is in His Spiritual flesh now. When He comes again in the Cloud, we will take on His likeness.

I just think our language is dangerously close to Platonic philosophy and gnostic notions of a future bodiless existence in heaven as the end-all-be-all of our future. Our hope is a future resurrected body to reign in the restored/recreated earth. Jesus' body is spiritual in the sense that it is the first-fruits of the new creation world breaking into the world. But it is very much physical. And if it is physical on earth, then it is physical at the right hand of God... which implies much about God's presence in his own abode.

I also think we need a better theology of space and matter. The dualistic material world vs immaterial world is insufficient to account for too many things.

 

[HankD]

My view (as well as many others):

We are tripartite (three essential components).

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.​

Body - The means by which we perceive the material world (world-consciousness).
Soul - The means by which we perceive self (self-consciousness).
Spirit - The means by which we perceive God (God-consciousness).​

HankD​

 

[percho]

I honestly have no idea what Plato thought/taught. Jesus stated in John 4 "My Father is Spirit". Jesus, the Son of God, Immanuel/Emmanuel, came in the likeness of sinful flesh, to die for us. When He went back to the Father, I believe, He is in His Spiritual flesh now. When He comes again in the Cloud, we will take on His likeness.

Literal: 23/24 THE FATHER such IS-SEEKIN THE ones-worshipING Him spirit THE God AND

 

[Greektim]

Literal: 23/24 THE FATHER such IS-SEEKIN THE ones-worshipING Him spirit THE God AND

doesn't really help does it

 

[HeirofSalvation]

GreekTim: you keep harping on the "Platonic thinking" aspect of this.....but you say nothing about why that MUST be bad or wrong? Is it possible that there were some things about which Plato was pretty close to accurate?

Percho: Should we assume there was a "time" when a soul came into being? at least, perhaps, other than along with the creation of time itself.... and I think you are really asking more about "Spirit" than "Soul" I would agree with the tripartate explanation. Just a few thoughts to confuse the matter more

 

[Greektim]

GreekTim: you keep harping on the "Platonic thinking" aspect of this.....but you say nothing about why that MUST be bad or wrong? Is it possible that there were some things about which Plato was pretty close to accurate?

Percho: Should we assume there was a "time" when a soul came into being? at least, perhaps, other than along with the creation of time itself.... and I think you are really asking more about "Spirit" than "Soul" I would agree with the tripartate explanation. Just a few thoughts to confuse the matter more

Actually... I did admit that this concept of soul may be correct. But the biggest problem is that we are foisting a concept onto a word that dictates important aspects of our theology. And the concept itself does not come from the Bible. What is worse, we are so engrossed with this platonic dualism that any dissension at all sounds crazy or heretical.

Can you honestly think of a place in Scripture that even explains "soul" much less describe it as the immaterial part of man? Probably not, but we still have these assumptions. Where do/did they come from? Not the Bible since it is not present (that I can tell, but I readily admit I could be badly wrong). Since much of western civilization is influenced by Plato's forms, we should not be surprised that it creeps into biblical interpretation.

So that is why it is bad. We are assuming meanings that aren't gleaned from Scripture. Even if our destination is correct, the road to get there is not, and that is a problem (for me anyhow).

 

[percho]

doesn't really help does it

I know, no Greek but have noticed many times when Holy Spirit is translated from the Greek, Spirit actually preceded Holy.

Did the translators turn it around for better understanding and or does it matter?

I know not. However it does change perception in some cases. I think you and I have addressed before whether or not the definite article,the, should have been left in translations concerning faith. Say, Spirit the God. The, gives the perception of one and only.

See this portion or this verse.
for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

THE for IN her BEING-generatED OUT OF-spirit IS HOLY
From Scripture4all.org

In that case not only does Spirit precede Holy but is also separated by is.

 

[Greektim]

I know, no Greek but have noticed many times when Holy Spirit is translated from the Greek, Spirit actually preceded Holy.

Did the translators turn it around for better understanding and or does it matter?

I know not. However it does change perception in some cases. I think you and I have addressed before whether or not the definite article,the, should have been left in translations concerning faith. Say, Spirit the God. The, gives the perception of one and only.

See this portion or this verse.
for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

THE for IN her BEING-generatED OUT OF-spirit IS HOLY
From Scripture4all.org

In that case not only does Spirit precede Holy but is also separated by is.

Not sure what your point is in all of this as it relates to "soul". But word order in Greek doesn't matter, so the position of "spirit" to "holy" makes no dif. And the article in Greek is simply that, an article. It is not a "definite article" as if that is all it does (notice there is no indefinite article in Greek). Many names or titles are given w/ the article that we know better than to translate. You pointed out a good case above.

 

[beameup]

You receive your soul at first-breath.
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground,
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;
and man became a living soul. - Gen 2:7

 

[percho]

Actually... I did admit that this concept of soul may be correct. But the biggest problem is that we are foisting a concept onto a word that dictates important aspects of our theology. And the concept itself does not come from the Bible. What is worse, we are so engrossed with this platonic dualism that any dissension at all sounds crazy or heretical.

Can you honestly think of a place in Scripture that even explains "soul" much less describe it as the immaterial part of man? Probably not, but we still have these assumptions. Where do/did they come from? Not the Bible since it is not present (that I can tell, but I readily admit I could be badly wrong). Since much of western civilization is influenced by Plato's forms, we should not be surprised that it creeps into biblical interpretation.

So that is why it is bad. We are assuming meanings that aren't gleaned from Scripture. Even if our destination is correct, the road to get there is not, and that is a problem (for me anyhow).

To me and I believe scripture would back this up, soul, is the individual characteristics built up from the life of one who has come into being.
The soul is built up through, life. When one's life ends the "soul" ceases building character. The souls under the alter are just that, the built up characteristic memories of one who had lived.

Praise ye the LORD. Praise the LORD, O my soul. While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

JMVHO The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord The declaration of Jesus as both Lord and Christ was the resurrection of Jesus (Not just the body) but Jesus from the dead.
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of the Christ, that his soul was not left in Hades, neither his flesh did see corruption.
This Jesus hath God raised up
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

The soul that sins, that soul shall die.
The soul Jesus died for us.
Spirit the God gave the grace of life to his only begotten Son Jesus by resurrection (quickening) from the dead.

John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth
John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
John 5:10 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take (translated receive 133 times and take 106 times) it again.

Use all the scripture you can find and answer this, did soul Jesus receive life from the dead by the Father or did soul Jesus take life from the dead?

 

[percho]

You receive your soul at first-breath.
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground,
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;
and man became a living soul. - Gen 2:7

Is that when you receive your soul or is that when you begin to build your soul.
You begin to make the being you over time (life) will become.

 

[percho]

Not sure what your point is in all of this as it relates to "soul". But word order in Greek doesn't matter, so the position of "spirit" to "holy" makes no dif. And the article in Greek is simply that, an article. It is not a "definite article" as if that is all it does (notice there is no indefinite article in Greek). Many names or titles are given w/ the article that we know better than to translate. You pointed out a good case above.

Well one thing for sure is I pointed out I know no Greek for I never thought about whether definite or indefinite is in the Greek. We translate the same Greek word as to what we think, as to definite or indefinite.

Therefore let me ask. Which should it be?
Now is a day of salvation.
Now is the day of salvation.