Teachings of Zane Hodges.

[EdSutton]

Can I have a sane critique of the teachings of Zane Hodges?
He seems to have a number of rather aberrant beliefs that distort
the doctrines of Salvation and Grace.

Please do not respond with any shallow, glibe, pithy or vain musings that are
attempts at serious theological discourse.
This is apperently a serious error coming from a biblical scholar and teacher,
who reportedly, should know better.

And please, let us not get into the Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate if we can help it. I am looking for a Baptist/Biblicist perspective coming from trained Baptist pastors/Theologians who have dealt with this problem either in their respective churches or seminaries.

In Christ Always

I'm neither a pastor, not a theologian, have not been to any seminary, except as a visitor to a handful. But I am a member of a Baptist church, so I guess that qualifies me as a Baptist, and also happen to be a farmer. I gave an early response, and 'reactions' to something that was a direct quote from ABSOLUTELY FREE!, by Zane C. Hodges. It is extremely difficult to completely avoid the so-called

Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate if we can help it.

, for understanding the real gist correctly, is vital to understanding 'where Hodges (and Dr. Robert G. Wilken) is coming from', IMO. I mention these two by name, as I have conversed with both of them, over the years, while not having conversed with any others mentioned as following those ideas.

With all respect, it would seem that you have tossed out the idea, and implied that you agree that Zane C. Hodges

seems to have a number of rather aberrant (gotta' love the pejorative word, here - Ed, ) beliefs that distort the doctrines of Salvation (sic) and Grace (sic).

Okay, I guess, but where are the specifics, as J.Jump and I both asked for, on page one? What specific doctrine(s) are you referring to, and how are they allegedly being distorted? That is a fair question, I believe.

One Revmitchell, painting with, at best, an extremely broad brush, declared

He diminishes the cross, the blood, and the resurrection for which there can be no slavation without. He is heretical!

Again, with all respect, where or how does Zane C. Hodges "diminish" these things? Do you have a "chapter and verse" on this? (And let me here add that not 'to focus' on some thing is not necessarily 'to diminish' its importance.) Or is one merely supposed to accept this pronouncement "by faith"?

Ed

 

[akrahnert]

Ed Sutton,

My first post was to try and set the tone for a discussion, and to see what people have heard about Mr. Hodges in general.

The use of the phrase "seems to have" was intended to foster a critique; either pro or con, without being biased as to what I think. I wanted hear from both sides, especially those with a better theological/experienced background than I.
Yes, I also used the word aberrant, as that gives a hint as to what I believe about
Hodges theology. Again I was merely trying to gauge what people thought of Hodges at first to "open" up the discussion.

The reasoning behind trying to avoid the Calvinism/Arminiandebate, is that I did not want to have the focus; Hodges theology on salvation and grace, as viewed through his belief in a "Two Salvations" doctrine blurred with a deviation into a heated discussion of those two positons.

I agree with you that it may be hard to avoid those issues, but I did not want this discussion to mutate into Calvinist/Arminian free-for-all.

Here are two of Hodges beliefs of which I am familiar with;

1. No Lordship Salvation. (as opposed to John MacArthurs Lordship Salvation.)

2. Two Salvations. This belief would have considerable influence on how one then is to view the doctrines of salvation and grace.

Number 2 is the Hodges belief that I wanted to try and discuss in the light of salvation and grace, though I have a suspicion that No Lordship Salvation might have a bearing on this matter also, in the context of "Easy Believism" and its post salvation affects on when does a believer make Jesus his Lord, and the process of sanctification.

Thank you to both J.Jump and Pinoybaptist for both your commmetaries.
J.Jump, good point about salvation AND sanctification in your first commentary.

I will begin to post Scripture as Hope in Glory pointed out.
I would suggest that Hodges views be read.
I unfortunatley do not have a lot of time to post things, so please bear with me.
It will come in time.

 

[EdSutton]

Ed Sutton,

My first post was to try and set the tone for a discussion, and to see what people have heard about Mr. Hodges in general.

The use of the phrase "seems to have" was intended to foster a critique; either pro or con, without being biased as to what I think. I wanted hear from both sides, especially those with a better theological/experienced background than I.
Yes, I also used the word aberrant, as that gives a hint as to what I believe about
Hodges theology. Again I was merely trying to gauge what people thought of Hodges at first to "open" up the discussion.

The reasoning behind trying to avoid the Calvinism/Arminiandebate, is that I did not want to have the focus; Hodges theology on salvation and grace, as viewed through his belief in a "Two Salvations" doctrine blurred with a deviation into a heated discussion of those two positons.

I agree with you that it may be hard to avoid those issues, but I did not want this discussion to mutate into Calvinist/Arminian free-for-all.

Here are two of Hodges beliefs of which I am familiar with;

1. No Lordship Salvation. (as opposed to John MacArthurs Lordship Salvation.)

2. Two Salvations. This belief would have considerable influence on how one then is to view the doctrines of salvation and grace.

Number 2 is the Hodges belief that I wanted to try and discuss in the light of salvation and grace, though I have a suspicion that No Lordship Salvation might have a bearing on this matter also, in the context of "Easy Believism" and its post salvation affects on when does a believer make Jesus his Lord, and the process of sanctification.

Thank you to both J.Jump and Pinoybaptist for both your commmetaries.
J.Jump, good point about salvation AND sanctification in your first commentary.

I will begin to post Scripture as Hope in Glory pointed out.
I would suggest that Hodges views be read.
I unfortunatley do not have a lot of time to post things, so please bear with me.
It will come in time.

I'm not sure that "what I think about Hodges", or anyone else, for that matter is really relevant, vis-a-vis`what Hodges (or anyone else) is claiming is taught in Scripture, IMO, anyway.

Let me offer one comment, that is sure to light a fire. (It always seems to, anyway.) A believer cannot "make Jesus his Lord", at all, for God already beat you and me to the punch by some 2000 years. I have posted several times on several threads that this is never taught in the Scripture. "Confess Jesus as Lord" is certainly taught in the Scripture, but there is a great deal of difference in a couple of words, here.

'Ducking incoming',

Ed

 

[akrahnert]

EdSutton,

I do not know how extensive Hodges influence is within the Body of Christ, when it comes to what he claims is taught in Scripture, but if his teaching is questionable concerning salvation, then I would not want to say that he is irrelevent to what the Scripture actually does teach, especially if one's thoughts and writtings carry much weight. I do know that Hodges was a professor at Dallas Theological Seminary, and has had a reputation in the past as a solid bible teacher and exegetical scholar, so I would think that what he does teach about the subject on this thread would be important.

Yes, Scripture is our ultimate authority, but if Hodges or any other person has fallen into error, it must be exposed for what it is. Many in the past whom have propogated heresy, have been exposed for what they and their beliefs are.
Paul warned of heretics, especially the growing Gnostic sect.

Here is some Scripture;

Acts, chapter 20:28-31

28": Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

"29": For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous'> wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

"30": Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

"31": Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Ed what are we to do? Here is our beloved Paul, warning us to take heed, to teach ourselves and our brethern the truth, and to beware of such menthat would lead astray the flock.

We should be thinking of the claims that Hodges has made about what Scripture teaches and others like him.

Also; (And I am sure you do know these things Ed; please do not take offence.)

Galatians, chapter 5:6-9

6": For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

"7": Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?

"8": This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.

"9": A little'> leaven> leaveneth the whole lump.

The Galations where being influenced by certain Jews who where preaching that circumcision must accompany faith in Christ. This was a false teaching that had crept in. Paul was warning them that this seeminlgly insignificant error ( They where strong in the faith at one time.) was like unto a little lump of leaven, and if not checked, would spread thourghout the whole Galatian Church.

Your second comment will indeed I fear, light a fire. But I agree with you, Jesus has always been our Lord , and we can do nothing to to accomplish that for ourselves, it was done at the Cross.

By that very act on the Cross, we should as saved individuals, confess Him as our Lord.

But this is going to head us in the direction of the Lordship Salvation debate that has raged back and forth between John MacArthur and Zane Hodges.

For now, I just wanted to concentrate on the Two Salvations teaching of Hodges.

I have read the commentaries about Hodge and others that are associated with the Grace Evangelical Society as posted on Middletown Bible Church's website.

There is a lot to read Ed, but if you do have the time, download it and go through it carefully. I may have missed somethings myself.

Thanks to Linda 64 for the heads up about the info on Hodges and his associates teachings MBC site.

Let us continue this discussion. God Bless you all.

 

[Lacy Evans]

EdSutton,I have read the commentaries about Hodge and others that are associated with the Grace Evangelical Society as posted on Middletown Bible Church's website.

There is a lot to read Ed, but if you do have the time, download it and go through it carefully. I may have missed somethings myself.

Thanks to Linda 64 for the heads up about the info on Hodges and his associates teachings MBC site.

Let us continue this discussion. God Bless you all.

While I don't discourage anyone from studying the articles at the Middletown site, might I suggest that also we give Brother Hodges his own voice and look directly at what he has said and written, rather that relying solely upon (a very biased) secondary source.

http://www.he.net/~zhodges/books/catalog.html

Lacy

PS I have "The Gospel Under Siege" and "Absolutely Free" if you want something looked up.

 

[J. Jump]

Ed what are we to do? Here is our beloved Paul, warning us to take heed, to teach ourselves and our brethern the truth, and to beware of such menthat would lead astray the flock.

The problem is that everyone that doesn't believe the way "I" do is considered a heretic these days. We would probably be better served do more to teach people Truth than trying to expose the errors.

That's the way they teach people to spot counterfit money. Know the real thing inside and out and you will be able to spot the fake. Know the Truth of Scripture inside and out and you will be able to spot the false teachings, and the wolves in sheeps clothing.

And I think a lot of people that are throwing around heretic here, heretic there, with heretic over there as if false teachers had a farm are actually going to be found guilty of it themselves, because they have bought into a lie

But only time will tell as Truth is separated from fiction.

 

[akrahnert]

Lacy,

I will certainly look into the writtings of Zane Hodges further.
I have been reading some of his contributions to the Grace Evangelical Society's journal.

Please do not misunderstand me. I would not just read what the MBC has posted about Hodges, without reading what Hodges wrote himself.

J.Jump,

We should be doing both, teaching the Word and exposing error.
The two compliment one another.
Paul did both.

I hope that this thread can continue in the context of analysis and discovery
of these differering positions concerning Hodges Two Salvations position.

I will continue to read more of what Hodges has written for the Two Salvations position, and will also continue to look at what his critics have written against that position.

Are there any others, whom are either for or against, the Two Salvations postion
as espoused by Hodges and his associates?

 

[James_Newman]

If we are voting, I'm definitely for. Although I think Hodges is a little soft on the chastisement.

 

[J. Jump]

We should be doing both, teaching the Word and exposing error.
The two compliment one another.
Paul did both.

Sure we do, but my point is we throw around the word heretic and false teacher at people just because they don't believe like we do and then can't even prove their own position correct, much less prove the others incorrect.

If you are going to call someone a heretic or false teacher then one had better be able to step up to the plate and show how and why that person is a heretic.

Just labeling someone a heretic is not exposing error it's just name calling.

Hope that clarifies where I am coming from.

 

[akrahnert]

James,

Could you tell me why you are for Hodges Two Salvations teaching?
I would like to hear both sides, for and against from a biblical point of view.

J. Jump,

You gave some interesting commentary on salvation and santification in your first post. Could you continue with those particular comments (and good ones!) in regards to Hodges Two Salvations teaching?

Lacy,
Why do you consider the MBC's articles of Hodges very biased?

In the end, even as Christians we may not agree on somethings, but let us try to agree in our disagreements and be at peace with one another.
Even if the disagreements are strong ones.

 

[J. Jump]

You gave some interesting commentary on salvation and santification in your first post. Could you continue with those particular comments (and good ones!) in regards to Hodges Two Salvations teaching?

akrahnet there have been a couple of threads in this section (of BB) on this very thing.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=33712

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=33916

 

[James_Newman]

James,

Could you tell me why you are for Hodges Two Salvations teaching?
I would like to hear both sides, for and against from a biblical point of view.

It accounts for all the warnings in the scriptures that are directed towards Christians without negating the scriptures that teach the security of the believer. It keeps the eternal security of the believer from being tainted by works that have no place in it. And it gives me a clear motivation for living a holy life, which the standard OSAS teaching fails to do effectively (yes we should because we love Jesus, but in practice it doesn't really happen that much.)

 

[Benjamin]

(yes we should because we love Jesus, but in practice it doesn't really happen that much.)

(Eph 4:14) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

(Eph 4:15) But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

(Eph 4:16) From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.


(1Jo 3:18) My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

(1Jo 3:19) And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

(1Jo 3:20) For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

(1Jo 3:21) Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

 

[James_Newman]

Am I to take it from your random sampling of scriptures that you believe love for the savior is the only motivation that we are given in the bible for serving God? Seems strange that we would be commanded to love God, and told to do so because we love God, doesn't it?

 

[James_Newman]

Truthfully, if you love Jesus, you should love His kingdom and His appearing, and should be striving to be found worthy when He comes. So even if your only motivation were love, you are told that if you love Him, you should keep His commandments, and one of His explicit commandments is to seek the kingdom of God.

 

[akrahnert]

J. Jump

Thank you for the previous threads. I did discover them after I started this thread.
I am reading through them now. Quite a lot of information to digest.
With my limited time, I will do what I can to add to this forum again, but I would like to study what others have commented on, while also taking into account
other sources, like Hodges himself and the MBC site, and of course the Bible.

Thank you. God Bless.

PS Please continue if you can. I will try to be back ASAP.

 

[akrahnert]

Benjamin,

A quick suggestion, no offence I hope.

It would be better, if you can, to provide some commentary with the scriptures
you have chosen to post, as to why you have chosen them and how they might pertain to the discussion at hand.

Take your time, and don't rush.

You may actually have a subtle and valid point that you are making.

 

[Lacy Evans]

I think Dr Dehaan's "Studies in the book of Hebrews" would add much to this conversation. Has anyone else read it?

Lacy

 

[akrahnert]

I have not read Dr. DeHanns' commentary. I will try to obtain a copy and read it.

But I would like explore writings from other sources that
give viable arguments against the Two Salvations teaching, not just those who are for the Two Salvations teaching.

The only source I have right now is the MBC site.

A solution would be to give a list of the the main proponents
(Hodge and Wilkins of course.) and opponents in this ongoing debate on the "Two Salvations" teaching.

I am open and willing to read and study both sides, for and against.

Just an aside; what would be the correct terminology, Two Salvations or Kingdom
Exclusion?

God Bless and have a good weekend.

 

[James_Newman]

It's the Gospel of the Kingdom. But most would refer to it as kingdom/millennial exclusion, or they call it protestant purgatory. I'm sure if you search for that term, you can find something derogatory.