Teachings of Zane Hodges.

[J. Jump]

How can one have "eternal security" in 1 Cor. 3:15 and at the same time suffer "temporary loss" using the same verse? What kind of "eternal security" is that?

Linda if you want to understand something then asking would be the ideal way to do that, not making up things about people that you know nothing about.

I see that you did not address anything that I said. I wonder why that is?

Someone being eternally secure and yet suffering loss for the kingdom has no contradiction in it at all becuase the 1,000-year reign of Christ is not eternity it is the 1,000-year reign of Christ.

Someone can miss out on the kingdom, but step into eternity with all their sorrow gone and all their tears being wiped away.

Again you are coming to a conclusion that this is a false teaching because it doesn't make sense to you. But just because something doesn't make sense to you doesn't make it wrong.

The Roman Catholic Church uses that verse for their false teaching of Purgatory--and it seems that is what the KE teachers use for dividing the Body of Christ.

Again instead of defending your point of view you keep trying to tie us in with the Catholics. That's slander.

And to say that we only have one verse to prove our point is just flat out false. This doctrine can be shown in both the OT and the NT, and such cases have been made.

I have asked on multiple occasions for someone from your point of view to step to the plate and show me some Scripture in the OT that proves that every Christian will rule and reign with Christ. And to date neither you nor anyone else has been able to do that.

Your husband gave one Scripture from a Psalm and I asked him how that meshed with several other OT Scriptures and he has never responded.

Instead of tearing down others that believe differently than you do, why don't you just provide the Scriptural evidence that your view is correct, and please show it from the OT and the NT, and then be willing to answer questions about it.

That would be much better than what you are presently doing!

 

[Linda64]

Again you are coming to a conclusion that this is a false teaching because it doesn't make sense to you. But just because something doesn't make sense to you doesn't make it wrong.

I have come to the conclusion that this is a false teaching--not because it doesn't make sense to me--but because it does not line up with the Word of God. I posted directly from your website, J. Jump---I didn't make anything up. The teaching of KE is false--doesn't matter who is teaching it.

 

[Lacy Evans]

How can one have "eternal security" in 1 Cor. 3:15 and at the same time suffer "temporary loss" using the same verse? What kind of "eternal security" is that?

Are we eternally secure from chastening?

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Is this loss temporary? Are you getting the Foundation mixed up with the building?

Lacy

 

[Hope of Glory]

Hope of Glory,

Please try to refrain form calling our Christian brothers and sisters liars and slanderers. I know that this is a topic which cuts at the very heart of peoples beliefs and may cause many a heated reply.

Did Jesus back off from calling the Pharisees offspring of vipers? When these individuals lie about me (or others) and slander me (or others), I will call it as such.

Another examples is the "cult" comment (I believe it was Diggin), which I responded back to in kind, but seemed to go over their heads.

We have been accused of following other mens' works, none of whom I or J. Jump have heard of until recently. (Hence the cult comment.) Yet, when we post Scripture, the "heresy" word is bantied about.

There are a few who are interested in serious dialogue, but there are two or three who are very vocal whose only weapon in their debate arsenal is lieing, slandering, twisting, and then a little more lieing.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Are we eternally secure from chastening?

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Is this loss temporary? Are you getting the Foundation mixed up with the building?

Lacy

Not only is Christ the foundation, but Peter stated that He is also the chief cornerstone. The Psalmist wrote in Psalm 127 that if the Lord did not build the house, our labor is in vain.

Man cannot please God with His own works. Our Salvation, oour Sanctification, our Security, our Stability, and our Safety rests solely in Christ Jesus.

 

[J. Jump]

I have come to the conclusion that this is a false teaching--not because it doesn't make sense to me--but because it does not line up with the Word of God. I posted directly from your website, J. Jump---I didn't make anything up. The teaching of KE is false--doesn't matter who is teaching it.

Then again provide your Scripture evidence from the OT and NT that supports your views.

And you did not directly quote from my website where I have ready and follow the teachings of Hodges and these others. You have not shown me directly from my website where I follow the teachings of men. You have not shown me directly for my website where I do not search the Scriptures like the Bereans did.

You have made up A LOT of stuff about me!!! And you have yet to address any of it. You have yet to show Scripture that proves your view is actually the correct view.

Basically all you do is slander and then side step when you are called on it and change the subject and then move on to other meaningless stuff.

 

[J. Jump]

Man cannot please God with His own works. Our Salvation, oour Sanctification, our Security, our Stability, and our Safety rests solely in Christ Jesus.

Again no one has said otherwise. They are "our" works but they are performed by the Holy Spirit. They are not actually "our" works, but works that are credited to our account as if we actually did them.

Again do you think Paul actually thought "he" finished the race and that "he" fought the good fight or that "he" earnestly contended for the faith or anything?

 

[Linda64]

Are we eternally secure from chastening?

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Is this loss temporary? Are you getting the Foundation mixed up with the building?

Lacy

Does it say in those verses ANYTHING ABOUT TEMPORARY LOSS? It isn't me who has the Foundation mixed up with the building. The foundation is Jesus Christ and the eternal riches of Calvary (1Co 3:12). While the believer can fall on this Foundation; praise God, he cannot fall off! The fire which shall try the believer's work is the Word of God (John 12:48) The believer's judgment is not for punishment, but to manifest his service for reward or loss of reward. The "wood, hay, and stubble" are associated with man and that which is of the world, temporal. The gold, silver, and precious stones" denote that which is of God, that which has eternal value. It is not the size of one's labor, but its value before God that is important. The loss will NOT be salvation (1Cor. 3:15) or one's riches in Christ (1 Peter 1:3-4; Rom. 8:18; Col. 3:4). In other words, the believer himself will be saved. The loss the believer will suffer is REWARD.

In this life, a believer is chastened (Hebrew 12:6-9), but in the life to come there will be no need for chastening---for we will be "like Jesus" (1 John 3:1-3)

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. (1 John 3:1)

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (1 John 3:2)

And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. (1 John 3:3)

The loss will be crowns; reigning positions (2Timothy 2:12; Rev. 2:25-26; 3:21; 20:4). No one who appears at this judgment will lose salvation for poor service; he WILL lose rewards and suffer shame (1Cor. 3:15; 1 John 2:28; 2 John 1:8). Salvation is not gained through faithful service, but through faith in the blood of Christ (Rom. 3:1-4; Ephesians 2:8-9). For the saved, the judgment of God's wrath upon his sin is forever past. It was poured out upon the Savior on Calvary (John 3:18,36).

Is God going to "purge" our "glorified" bodies? What chastisment is necessary after we are "changed" in the "twinkling of an eye"? Or do you also teach that not all Christians will be raptured (1 Thess. 4:13-18)

 

[Lacy Evans]

Another examples is the "cult" comment (I believe it was Diggin), which I responded back to in kind, but seemed to go over their heads.

We have been accused of following other mens' works, none of whom I or J. Jump have heard of until recently. (Hence the cult comment.) Yet, when we post Scripture, the "heresy" word is bantied about.

There are a few who are interested in serious dialogue, but there are two or three who are very vocal whose only weapon in their debate arsenal is lieing, slandering, twisting, and then a little more lieing.

Romans 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

1 Peter 3:9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.

 

[akrahnert]

Did Jesus back off from calling the Pharisees offspring of vipers? When these individuals lie about me (or others) and slander me (or others), I will call it as such.

Another examples is the "cult" comment (I believe it was Diggin), which I responded back to in kind, but seemed to go over their heads.

We have been accused of following other mens' works, none of whom I or J. Jump have heard of until recently. (Hence the cult comment.) Yet, when we post Scripture, the "heresy" word is bantied about.

There are a few who are interested in serious dialogue, but there are two or three who are very vocal whose only weapon in their debate arsenal is lieing, slandering, twisting, and then a little more lieing.

Hope of Glory,

This will happen when certain beliefs are at stake. We must be able to bear these things. Let us look to Paul. If we are confrontational, even when others are slandering us, or calling us liars, we lose our credibility.
Just continue in patience. Be not troubled.

These people are not Pharisees; they are just all trying to understand this difficult subject. Christ railed against the Pharisees because of their deviousness in leading people astray, on purpose, in trying to prevent people from coming to Him for salvation, and their devilish frustration of the Gospel and their outright denial that Jesus is the Christ. They where truly children of Satan.

These people that are engaged in this dialogue are not like these.

Suggestion; why not go to the site that Linda has posted, and try reading what they do say. At least try to have an understanding from both sides.

(The Middletown site actually helped me to understand that Lordship Salvation
is not biblical, and that it is truly a works oriented salvation. It also helped me to put Calvinism in perspective; yet they even praise our Calvinistic brothers for upholding certain biblical truths; God's sovergnty, holiness, and righteousness, and hold no ill will towards them.)

That is what I am trying to do, even though I would not agree with Hodges view on this particular aspect of doctrine.

If they do not want to provide scripture, than just let them be.
God knows your heart, and your intentions; and also their's as well.

God Bless, and be at peace my Brother.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

The problem is, Scripture has been given in previous threads, and the KE proponents have rejected it or twisted it.

Then they say no Scripture was given.

 

[J. Jump]

The problem is, Scripture has been given in previous threads, and the KE proponents have rejected it or twisted it.

Hardly! What is more like it is there are some that come on here and pluck a Scripture out and say Ha the Bible proves my point. But then when we say okay look at the context of the Scripture and look at how that coincides with other Scripture we never hear anything again until the next time some pops up with another plucked Scripture and says Ha the Bible proves my point.

I have continually asked and neither you nor anyone else has been able to show in the OT where your belief that all Christians will rule and reign is to be the case.

Now can you provide an OT type, illustration, foreshadowing, anything that says all Christians will rule and reign with Christ and that all Christians will be a part of the bride of Christ?

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

and there ya go, akranert. They ignore the Scripture that proves they are wrong when they say the Body of Christ is divided during the Millenial Reign.

Even when so-called 'plucked' verses are numerous, they just say they are out of context.

Well, when the Holy Spirit shows someone the Scripture, it must be for a reason. The fact that Christ's Body is not divided should automatically show the fallacy of the Kingdom Exclusion doctrine.

It is satan who comes to steal, kill, and destroy. He is trying his best to destroy the Body of Christ. Since he could not keep Christ dead and in the tomb, he figures he can amputate parts of Christ's Body, thereby defeating Him.

Well, satan is a defeated foe. He may get some to believe his lies concerning part of the Body being cast into outer darkness, or even hell, but those who know the Lord know He is not, nor will He be divided.

 

[J. Jump]

they just say they are out of context.

No we don't just say it is out of context, but SHOW you how it is out of context.

And context is key in determining what a passage of Scripture means. We don't just get to pick and choose context. Scripture tells us what the context is and we have to abide by that if we really want to know what Scripture says!

The fact that Christ's Body is not divided should automatically show the fallacy of the Kingdom Exclusion doctrine.

Again you make fanciful statements and yet you provide no Scripture and you leave questions posed to you unanswered. Please show me in the OT in type, form, shadow, illustration or something that ALL Christians will enter the kingdom and that ALL Christians will rule and reign with Christ.

Why can't you do that?

It is satan who comes to steal, kill, and destroy. He is trying his best to destroy the Body of Christ. Since he could not keep Christ dead and in the tomb, he figures he can amputate parts of Christ's Body, thereby defeating Him.

Well, satan is a defeated foe. He may get some to believe his lies concerning part of the Body being cast into outer darkness, or even hell, but those who know the Lord know He is not, nor will He be divided.

Actually if you want to know Satan's lie it is this, that every Christian regardless of how they live their life can rule and reign with Christ in His coming kingdom. His lie is does the Word of God really mean what does it profit a man if he gain the whole world but yet lose his soul. His lie is you really can't lose your soul. That's really not what that verse means.

No his lie is that you can party it up in this life and have all the pleasures of the next age and eternity as well. That folks is the lie that Satan is spreading these days and he has the church in his hip pocket doing the spreading for him!

 

[webdog]

Actually if you want to know Satan's lie it is this, that every Christian regardless of how they live their life can rule and reign with Christ in His coming kingdom.

I have not seen anyone on these threads that believe a carnal christian will rule and reign in the MK. Difference between being in the kingdom and ruling it.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Scriptural proof that Christ's Body is not divided?

1 Corinthians 1:13 Is Christ divided?

The obvious answer is No! for Paul wrote elsewhere:

Ephesians 4:4-6 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

One body.. not divided. My Lord is not, nor will He ever be an amputee victim.

BTW, there is not an OT type of the NT Christian. The sacrifices were types and shadows, but those patriarchs in the OT were not Christians... they were God fearers.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Again instead of defending your point of view you keep trying to tie us in with the Catholics. That's slander.

Come to think of it, translating "aionios" as "eternal" is a Catholic tradition. It never meant eternal, and it still doesn't. Therefore, using Linda's logic, she's a heretic!

 

[Hope of Glory]

Romans 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

1 Peter 3:9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.

It was not intended as a railing; it was hyperbole that was intended to point out the absurdity of Diggin's "cult" statement. We were accused of being a cult by following these men (and I had never heard of any of them until recently), yet Linda constantly posts "proof" that comes solely from the teachings of men.

 

[Hope of Glory]

The problem is, Scripture has been given in previous threads, and the KE proponents have rejected it or twisted it.

Then they say no Scripture was given.

Most of the Scripture they have posted has explicitly stated "Kingdom". The passages they post have nothing to do with spiritual salvation.

They have posted precious few of those even.

Although, they have posted the works of other men quite frequently.

 

[Hope of Glory]

I have not seen anyone on these threads that believe a carnal christian will rule and reign in the MK. Difference between being in the kingdom and ruling it.

That's what an entrance into the Kingdom is: Ruling; participating.

Webdog, there have been many who have stated that there is no such thing as a carnal Christian. There have been others who have stated that if you're truly a Christian, then you will definitely prove it by your works, or you were never saved.

They are judging the salvation of others (including mine, BTW), and as such, claiming that there are no carnal Christians, and that yes, we will all be there ruling and reigning.