Ted Haggard - should he ever be allowed to pastor again?

This is scripture too!

2Th 3:6 ¶ Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

You think Haggard mind is not corrupt?

You think Haggard walk in order?

Which scriptures do you think we should keep without dispute those we don't fully understand or those as plain as these?

 

Does this come before baptism?

 

I am saying he never was baptized with the Holy Ghost. I don't believe the man was ever saved to start with.

 

You are rolling three posts together into one without distinction, here Bob, by quoting me, then citing without the correct quotes marks, some of the rest of this post.

My own twenty year comment was in answer to a question about thirty years, from another.

And I never said Paul was doing any particular thing when he wrote I Timothy. I merely said that He was the one using the present tense, when he said "I am chief...". The point is he specifically did not say 'he was (or he used to be) the chief of sinners'.

You are correct that aside from Paul, when he wrote the above, that none of the ones I mentioned above had yet been indwelt, by the Holy Spirit, for that never happened before the 'church age', i.e. Pentecost. (Peter would not get there until a while later, and that was sometime after his proclamation.) Yet they had (at least access to) the power and might of the Holy Spirit, as He came upon individuals, and sat upon them, and I believe also 'filled' them, although this was not a permanent 'residence', such as we have today. David prayed that the Holy Spirit not be taken away from him; in another place, it says the Holy Spirit left someone.

Can't happen with you or me. The Holy Spirit is stuck with me, and indwells me, as a Christian, as long as I draw breath. The only way that may ever change is at death, when one goes to be in the presence of the Father, leaving the body behind, as far as I can tell.
Secondly, I am not the one who said anything about rating sins, per se, or "sin is sin". That was another poster. I did ask if someting Scripture calls abomination is worse in one instance than another. And offered my opinion that homosexuality is spoken of as abomination, probably, although I have not checked specifically.
But if I get a chance, I certainly want to visit your church, sometime. Might do me good to be around some saints who don't seem to sin so much, as those I am around. Well, maybe aside from a little of the pride thingy, that is.

Ed

P.S. BTW, there are at least three or four Biblical descriptions and/or terms for what Ted Haggard proclaims he has been guilty of - Sodomite, 'effeminate', 'abusers of themselves with mankind', and 'burning with lust...'. Just FTR.

P.P.S. As to 'putting up with' liars, thieves, murderers, etc., in our churches, I'm sure you know your congregation better than I do, so I'll take your word on it. As for the church I happened to be reared around, I'm pretty sure there were a few murderers there, for I recall the 'hatred' for those of some other races, that I've heard spouted in the past - Didn't Jesus say something about 'if you hated someone, you were guilty of murder?' Or did I dream that one up? Any character assassination by gossip go on there? Sure tends to in all the churches I've been around.
Thieves? Pretty sure there were some of them - Didn't God say something about 'robbing Him in tithes and offerings'? To say nothing of 'time'? And frankly, I'm pretty sure that were I to ask if anyone in our congregation could honestly say thay had never stolen anything, not even a stick of gum or a pencil, wittingly or unmittingly, I would get no hands.
Liars? Were I to ask if there were any who had never told even a 'little white lie", you know like "I don't want to talk to him (or her), right now. Tell him I'm not available." - stuff like that- I doubt there would be many hands either. Anyway, that's a few of the sorts we have in our church; Glad your's is much "holier than that".

 

In the past Ed, in the past.
I guess I have said enough on the subject. You know how I feel and I would not belong to a church that kept Haggard as a member. The moment they said as they did today that he is starting his reconcilation is when I would just move on and not bother them anymore. I don't want to give the opinion that we are much holier than you but seems you took it that way. There probably are some who are guilty of the same as Haggard but it is not known. As a matter of fact one of our most thought of preachers turned out to be a homo just like Haggard and he has not been a part of since it was made known. My uncle another very high thought of preacher ran off with a young girl and he is no longer with us since we found out. There are many many others who got drunk, women you name it but they are gone. I don't only talk the talk, I walk the walk. I am sure we have liars but we don't know it. I am sure we have adulterers but we don't know it. If you did visit my church you would find old time people who believed in good morals before joining church. That is not to say there were not some who had bad morals but they had to change to be saved. We all must change to be saved and that is what I believe. I will never get on here or anywhere else and say that a sin is a sin when Jesus said to His apostles talking about a man possesed with devils that with that kind it took much fasting and prayer for the Apostles were not able to help the man. I sense a little resentment for how I believe but that is alright. I have to die for myself, not haggard or anyone else, just little ole me and for me and my house I shall serve the Lord with all my strength until my last breath. I ask you all, can you read where even one apostle or deciple committed such acts? They may have felt little and sinners but where did they do all this sinning. Please show me in the scriptures. I know Paul went from church to church "cleaning house". If I have to give up my belief in how I believe in keeping a clean church to be among the majority then I am on the outside looking in. I never knew anyone to be resented for trying to live "too" close. I assure you, I will not cause anyone to miss Heaven for that is between every man and God himself.

 

I have plenty of faults and look inside myself every day and night. I pray as Paul did to have the thorn removed but that was a desire to be perfect in the flesh and it just not going to happen in this life. I am also a man whose footsteps are ordered of the Lord and do not believe He will lead me down the path of Homo or Adultery or a sin where my soul would be lost. Why do you think it says "if a man were to taste of the good fruits of the Lord and if he were to fall to renew him again unto repentance is impossible". That passage right there tells not only me but all who read it that there is sins that you cannot "reconcile". Also, the church cannot forgive sin. We can forgive a trespass, which is against our brother or the church but sin is against God and only He can forgive that.
I feel bad that you think I have pride and that I have an attutitude of "holier than thou" when all I am trying to do is uphold the word of God. It hurts me that you would judge me as such, while upholding the church, and make allowances for people like Haggard.

 

Bro Bob, I usually greatly respect your view and understanding of scripture. I know you are one who has studied and walks close to God. I believe the above passage is from Hebrews where Paul was addressing the tendancy of the Jewish believers to put themselves back under the law. Once one has tasted the true perfect sacrifice and atoning power of Christ blood, why would you revert back to sacrificing animals that could only cover sin at best? I believe Paul is saying there just isn't hope for a Jew who insist being under the law. It's like the song that says, no one is blinder than he who just won't see...

Now I know there are many interpritations of this verse, but this is the one I have come to accept. I know from reading your post you believe in eternal security, if that is so then this verse can't mean that a man who is saved and backslides can't repent. That goes against OSAS.

I also think we should view that verse in the light of Heb 10:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

If I'm not mistaken, this verse was addressing idleness in the Church. Those who were lazy and wouldn't work using excuses like they were waiting for Christ to return. This same subject he also addressed in his first letter but this time he was a bit stronger because the slackers still had a pew in the Church.

1 Thes 5:14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.

Now this is an interesting passage, I take it as everyone in the Church isn't saved. Like the preachers who are in the Church to get rich instead of glorifying the kingdom. I see your point here, Haggard could be about self gain but I tend to error toward believing he really loves the Lord, but the thorn in his flesh or the fight in his members resulted in the wrong side winning this battle. Loosing the battle does not mean loosing the war. I wouldn't give up on him yet.

 

If God's forgiveness is limited by one's baptism . . . then I might have to agree with some Church of Christ & Catholic folk that think we have it wrong . . .

However, As I wrote preiously - I do not think restoration should be quick or easy.

IMHO of the Word of God.

And if his church is for never restoring him, I can understand that as well.

Wayne

 

I thank you for your respect in the past LeBuick;

This Scripture has been discussed on here before and the concensus was that it means how hard it would be to fall from Grace of which I agree.

So, you believe we should withdraw from idleness but not adulterers. interesting

If everyone in the church are adulterers and homos then I guess everyone is not saved but it is not saying that it is saying there are some amongst them that are guilty of such and to withdraw from them even Paul went from church to church to rid the churches of such.

Spiritual Baptism El;, not water. water has never saved anyone and never will.

 

Strange to me everyone preaches and believes in order to be saved you must quit such things as adultery, homo, stealing etc then after you are in the church, apparently you didn't mean it. I would like to know who gave us the power to forgive such sins. I don't have it and wonder where you got it. These are sins against their own bodies, against God, against the church, against their families. Na, I don't have the power.

I doubt if any of you would get your pants wet to baptize an adultereous or a homo and receive them in your church while they were still in such acts. Then why keep them in your church when such acts were evident they were not saved when coming in the church if they were guilty, then why is it not evident now. I honestly do not understand. To call me self righteous because I do not believe such are members is just plain wrong as some have suggested.

Would you be comfortable leaving your children around this guy? I say your wife would not. You need to be careful and not get too many of those in your membership for God destroyed a city over the same thing.

 

Isn't restoration the main point of church discipline.... we put them out in order to show them the seriousness of their sin.

But once they see the seriousness of the sin, AND repent, then we should welcome them back.

Now, lets apply this to this situation... Mr Haggard has been put out. It will be up to that church to restore him once they see his repentance.

Of course for something like this, I would suggest counseling to make sure that he is repentant over his sin, and not just for being caught.

 

Bohb,
I don't think you're getting what anyone is saying. I've read through the posts and no one issaying, leave him in membership or bring him back into the pulpit. On the other hand, everyone is saying that what he did was absolutely wrong, absolutely sin and absolutely rules him out from being the pastor at the church.

No one is being soft on sin. No one is saying that after a person trusts Christ as Savior , gets baptized and joins a church that they should be allowed to choose any life style they want. No one is asking anyone to trust him around their children. You keep setting up straw men and knocking them down.

What I am saying is that forgiveness is available through the blood of Jesus. If haggard has never been saved, then forgiveness is available if he will be saved. If he has been saved, then forgiveness is available in the same way as any other believer (1 john 1:9)

Forgiveness is a gift. Trust is something else entirely. Trust is earned. And Haggard has less than zero trust. He has forfeited his right to serve in a local church for any foreseeable future.

But I am not, and I don't think anyone else is saying that we just wink at what he did. For myself, we have removed people from membership in our church for far less when the sin is continuing, ongoing and without repentence. We try to follow the steps Paul talked about concerning the the man in 1 Corinthians who, by the way, also committed a sin that in the OT was punishable by death.

 

I find no fault in that at all Tim; That is what I been saying all the time. I don't just mean to put him out of the pulpit either.

I am all for forgiveness when he is put out and when he repents I would be the first to welcome him back.

I appreciate your answer it sure is closer to what I beleive than what I been reading.

 

I sure hope I am misreading everyone Tom but it don't seem that way to me. I am all for forgiveness when he is put out from among you if he repents I would be one of the first to welcome him back or "in" as I see it.

I thank you for your answer Tom and hope you are right but still thank you for how you believe for it is closer to what I believe than what I think I been reading. When I say to put him out that is what I mean, not just the pulpit.

 

I agree with Tom as it what I was trying to state and I believe others were as well.