This is why it is impossible to talk to cals. When you think you can tell me what I am saying in contrast to what I say I am saying then you have an issue that needs correcting within yourself. God bless
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Temporal Salvation
- Thread starter Earth Wind and Fire
- Start date
This is why it is impossible to talk to cals. When you think you can tell me what I am saying in contrast to what I say I am saying then you have an issue that needs correcting within yourself. God bless
FTR, the differentiation made between 'children' and 'sons' is actually quite orthodox:
"..."The difference between believers as "children of God" and as "sons of God" is brought out in Rom. 8:14-21. The Spirit bears witness with their spirit that they are "children of God," and, as such, they are His heirs and joint-heirs with Christ. This stresses the fact of their spiritual birth (vv. 16, 17). On the other hand, "as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God," i.e., "these and no other." Their conduct gives evidence of the dignity of their relationship and their likeness to His character." (Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testaments Words, by W.E. Vine, pp. 585)..."
The Difference Between Sons of God & Children of God
"..."The difference between believers as "children of God" and as "sons of God" is brought out in Rom. 8:14-21. The Spirit bears witness with their spirit that they are "children of God," and, as such, they are His heirs and joint-heirs with Christ. This stresses the fact of their spiritual birth (vv. 16, 17). On the other hand, "as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God," i.e., "these and no other." Their conduct gives evidence of the dignity of their relationship and their likeness to His character." (Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testaments Words, by W.E. Vine, pp. 585)..."
The Difference Between Sons of God & Children of God
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12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Jn 1
It's quite obvious if you rightly divide the scripture that to the children of God of verse 13 receiving Christ in verse 12 He gives the power to be led by the Spirit of God and become sons of God.
It's really not complicated at all.
PreachTony
Active Member
So there are two salvations? Just how many times did Christ die?
David, who was called a "man after God's own heart," didn't say "restore unto me the joy of one of thy salvations."
I consider myself a fairly intelligent guy, but this is so confusing... Man has nothing to do with salvation, unless he does have something to do with it... :BangHead:
One salvation with two aspects. An eternal aspect in which you were totally passive and a temporal aspect in which you are active.
That is the same thing Millennial Exclusionists said and they were banned for it.
convicted1
Guest
I think the PB's view on 'time salvation' is that one can be kicked out of the local church for being unruly, which would be in 'time', yet they are still in God's hands, still God's sheep, which is 'eternal'. Now, I can see some grounds for this in scripture, 1 Cor. 5:5 comes to mind.
I am not saying I agree with this doctrine...I don't...but I see where they are coming from...
I am not saying I agree with this doctrine...I don't...but I see where they are coming from...
Ultimately; Just what is salvation?
Is it not redemption of the body? Does that begin with the body being the temple of the Holy Spirit, for the elect? Elected as what? Let's get back to that.
What is the body redeemed from? Is it not the death brought about by sin? Have not and will not all men experience the death because of sin until the coming of the Lord and maybe even some after that? In other words do not all men die in Adam? 1 Cor 15:22 1st part For as in Adam all die. The flesh is carnal sold under sin. Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin,
What does the last part of 1 Cor 15:22 say? even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
All at once? Does not the very next verse say there is an order as to when all will be made alive? Who are the first to be made alive? Well, Christ was first, who is next? Is it not the elect, those who have been given the firstfruit of the Spirit, will they be the first of the all that will be made alive, receive the redemption of the body? The manifestation of the sons of God? Will Jesus the Christ at that moment be the firstborn of many brethren? Rom 8:29 the predestined to be, so born?
What about the order of the rest, who are to be, made alive in Christ?
I agree, convicted1, a very interesting verse.
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
I wonder how long the day of the Lord Jesus will last?
Is it not redemption of the body? Does that begin with the body being the temple of the Holy Spirit, for the elect? Elected as what? Let's get back to that.
What is the body redeemed from? Is it not the death brought about by sin? Have not and will not all men experience the death because of sin until the coming of the Lord and maybe even some after that? In other words do not all men die in Adam? 1 Cor 15:22 1st part For as in Adam all die. The flesh is carnal sold under sin. Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin,
What does the last part of 1 Cor 15:22 say? even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
All at once? Does not the very next verse say there is an order as to when all will be made alive? Who are the first to be made alive? Well, Christ was first, who is next? Is it not the elect, those who have been given the firstfruit of the Spirit, will they be the first of the all that will be made alive, receive the redemption of the body? The manifestation of the sons of God? Will Jesus the Christ at that moment be the firstborn of many brethren? Rom 8:29 the predestined to be, so born?
What about the order of the rest, who are to be, made alive in Christ?
I agree, convicted1, a very interesting verse.
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
I wonder how long the day of the Lord Jesus will last?
As I read the op I kept thinking if this were actually true (and it is not) there would be no need for evangelism.
Why not go and preach the kingdom of God, as a witness? Matt 24:14
Did Paul preach the kingdom of God? --- And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more. Acts 20:25
Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ. And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few. But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people. And when they found them not, they drew Jason and certain brethren unto the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also; Whom Jason hath received: and these all do contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another king, one Jesus. Acts 17:1-7
Is that passage about the kingdom of God, that Paul preached everywhere he went? Why did king Jesus, the Christ, must suffer and be raised from the dead relative to the kingdom of God?
Was the Son of God 100% man?
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. John 3:3
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Col 1:18
1 Cor 15:22,23 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
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Now you are spouting instead of researching. I know quite allot of PB's that do missionary work. For the sake of an edifying conversation, please try and stay on topic. Thanks
with all due respect, you are running off on a tangent again instead of dealing with the context of the post. I posted this as a means of exploring this particular doctrine in greater detail, OK. I personally want to completely take it apart (w/o throwing rocks at any one group, w/o contentious commentary) so that I understand it complete.....to enable me to make some decisions here.
Thanks
RV.....with the exception of Yeshua & Dr. Bob, there are no Cals here,. Not in the strictest sense anyway. And Dr. Bob has indicated that he would refrain from any commentary till he studies it in greater detail.
Seriously though, why are you now attacking Calvinists who have nothing at all to do with the topic of Temporal Salvation Doctrine.... Actually I believe they disagree with it.
No, I'm not off on a tangent. I was just responding to another poster. However, what I said is perfectly in line with taking the op apart as you say. The repercussions of such a doctrine are serious.
I seriously doubt that since that particular doctrine has been around for a very long time. So you will have to do some justifying of that statement least you come off like some provocateur.
so has questioning the word of God.
... Yea, hath God said, ....Genesis 3:1. The length of time a false doctrine has been around is not telling of anything.
People take things how they want to. You can either believe what I say about my intentions or you can do like the other fella and tell me what I intend.
Now the serious repercussions of this hideous doctrine is that no one shares the gospel. It is a long standing perception and very justified that PB's are anti-evangelism. It has been widely known for many many years.
So when exactly did this teaching arise among certain PBs?
I dont see it.....you will have to enlighten me. I will also share with you that Ive had more q&A conversations with Old School Baptists & more instruction in the gospel given to me by this group of men then any other group on this BB thing....and off....so where you coming from?
Gotta go back to work.
Well I track them to about the 1800's
From the OLD SCHOOL Website:
History
Primitive means 'original' and in doctrine and practice, the Primitive Baptists are identical to the original English and Welsh Baptists who immigrated to colonial America. More importantly, the Primitive Baptists are identical to the primitive or first century church in doctrine and practice.
Primitive Baptists are united by a strong desire to adhere to "Thus saith the Lord", refusing man made additions and auxiliaries to the church, we maintain a simple form of worship and rejoice in the truth of God's sovereignty in saving lost sinners.
The name 'Primitive' was adopted after a disagreement arose in the 1820's and 1830's over the use of Missionary Societies, Sunday Schools and Theological Seminaries, which were first introduced to the United States about 1800. Up till that time, all the Baptist churches (with the exception of a few general atonement Baptist churches) were identical in faith and practice.
Eventually, certain churches began to resist the introduction of the Missionary Societies, Sunday Schools and Theological Seminaries on the grounds that they were unscriptural innovations and there was no Biblical authority to authorize their use. (See The Kehukee Declaration and The Black Rock Address) They believed that God, through the Holy Spirit, directs his ministers where to evangelize not a missionary board. They believed that it is the responsibility of parents to instruct their children in the Christian faith, not others. They believed that the scriptural pattern was for young ministers to apprentice or train under elder ministers, not in a seminary. These Baptists were of the Old School in faith and practice and became known as the Primitive Baptists. The churches which adopted the use of Missionary Societies, Sunday Schools and Theological Seminaries were of the New School and became known as Missionary Baptists. The largest denomination of Missionary Baptists today is the Southern Baptist Convention.
Originally, most of the New School churches were sound on the doctrine of God's Sovereignty in the salvation of sinners. However, practice affects doctrine and vice versa and they soon lost that important truth and became Arminian (belief in the General Atonement). The Primitive Baptists understood this as a vindication against the New School practices and regard Arminianism as an even worse departure from the truth than the Missionary Societies, Sunday Schools and Theological Seminaries they originally stood against.
Primitive Baptists believe there are true believers in the other Christian denominations, however, it is our firm conviction that those believers who are seeking the truth, should return to the place where the truth never ceased to be taught, the Primitive Baptists.
Elder James Taylor
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