Temporal Salvation

[Earth Wind and Fire]

God is all powerful. If he can cause a virgin birth and produce the Son of God out of it, is it impossible for him to do those things you speak of above? Consider this passage, " And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost" (Luke 1:41)

Apparently John The Baptist was able to recognize the sound of his savior's mothers voice when he was yet unborn, or else why would he leap in the womb? God is sovereign and is not bound by the limitations understood by man.

Many conditional time Salvationist Primitives will often use the same question you posed to me to others, to convert them to their doctrine. I know through firsthand experience. (I love them and learned much from them regarding how eternal salvation is wrought, but am afraid they are misguided when it comes to time salvation).

Now as to the question of will all the elect hear the gospel scripture tells us," being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:", would it be considered performed if the end result was a "regenerated" Muslim who dies not knowing his savior? Also, this verse touches on time salvation by showing it is God who performs the works in us. Scripture teaches us anything good that comes from us, is from God because nothing good is in us outside of God.

I would have perferred a detailed explaination....replete with scripture detailing how those who don't physically hear...can hear as you appear to suggest. See this is now all a "what if" synerio (sic)....one that leads to continued speculation.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Brother Earth, Wind, and Fire wrote

I would have perferred a detailed explaination....replete with scripture detailing how those who don't physically hear...can hear as you appear to suggest. See this is now all a "what if" synerio (sic)....one that leads to continued speculation.

Brother, I think it more of a stretch to conclude the baby leaped in the womb at the same time as the sound of Mary's voice and that the writer of this gospel felt it important to describe this if it were a mere coincidence, is this what you conclude on the verse?

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Brother Earth, Wind, and Fire said

I would have perferred a detailed explaination....replete with scripture detailing how those who don't physically hear...can hear as you appear to suggest. See this is now all a "what if" synerio (sic)....one that leads to continued speculation.

Brother, here is another passage that came to mind, " For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: and they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more." (Hebrews 8:10-12)

Per this passage, the Lord can be revealed to the "least to the greatest" per being directly taught by the Holy Spirit giving them a knew heart. "When Keller was young, Anne Sullivan introduced her to Phillips Brooks, who introduced her to Christianity, Keller famously saying: "I always knew He was there, but I didn't know His name!"[30][31][32]"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Keller

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Brother, I think it more of a stretch to conclude the baby leaped in the womb at the same time as the sound of Mary's voice and that the writer of this gospel felt it important to describe this if it were a mere coincidence, is this what you conclude on the verse?

Mothers are always feeling birth pangs from the unborn...that is natural....

But lets consider those severely brain damaged....where is your justification for them ... when do they here the gospel?

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Brother Earth, Wind, and Fire


Do you believe there will be in eternal glory those who did not believe the declaration of Christ's death and resurrection when preached to them or never had it preached to them either by the two legged preacher or God (not including infants and the mentally challenged)?

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Brother Earth, Wind, and Fire wrote

Mothers are always feeling birth pangs from the unborn...that is natural....

But lets consider those severely brain damaged....where is your justification for them ... when do they here the gospel?

Please see my post 143 for the answer to those with brain damage.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Brother, here is another passage that came to mind, " For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: and they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more." (Hebrews 8:10-12)

Per this passage, the Lord can be revealed to the "least to the greatest" per being directly taught by the Holy Spirit giving them a knew heart. "When Keller was young, Anne Sullivan introduced her to Phillips Brooks, who introduced her to Christianity, Keller famously saying: "I always knew He was there, but I didn't know His name!"[30][31][32]"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Keller

Yes brother...I know all this........I have a sister who is now with the Lord who had cerebral palsy and my child died prior to hearing the gospel preached from the mouths of fleshy humans. When I read your commentary about spiritual powers at work, I knew you were on it so I felt compelled to draw it out of you. Now I can go to bed knowing this element of Gods mercy was revealed

God bless you and good night.

 

[percho]

Another passage that proves all the elect will hear and believe the gospel, "in whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed..." (Ephesians 1:13(a))

Methinks there is a reason the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, given to us by the Father through the Son, is called the Spirit of Truth.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Brother Earth, Wind, and Fire wrote,

Yes brother...I know all this........I have a sister who is now with the Lord who had cerebral palsy and my child died prior to hearing the gospel preached from the mouths of fleshy humans. When I read your commentary about spiritual powers at work, I knew you were on it so I felt compelled to draw it out of you. Now I can go to bed knowing this element of Gods mercy was revealed

God bless you and good night.

Brother, I am soo sorry to hear about your loved ones who have passed on. I can't begin to imagine how painful it was lo lose your child! I am glad you know they are in heaven and how they got there! I hope you have a good night and God bless you too!

I will not be on the forum until Tuesday night after this evening, thus I guess I will have a lot of catching up to do to respond to those who view me as a heretic!

 

[percho]

Wednesday my SBC preacher spoke from Luke 2. Don't know about PB's

And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. Luke 2:10,11 KJV

And the wheels began to turn.

Let's say about 10,000 miles away, say in Australia, an aborigine baby was born at the same moment when, a Savior, which is Christ the Lord was being born. This aborigine baby lived ten days, and in Adam, died.

All people? Good tidings and great joy? How?

Is the answer not found in scripture?

And as it is appointed unto men once(,) to die, but after this the judgment: Hebrews 9:27 I added a comer. When was it once appoint unto men to die? Remember from the foundation of the world the Lamb was slain.
Is something that is dead, judged? Why does the judgement follow the wages of sin? In Adam all die.

For since by man death, by man also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1 Cor. 15:21,22 KJV. I removed the words in italics.

V23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Then the end; The end of what? Death in Adam?

V24,25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy shall be destroyed, death. KJV without italics

Where is the baby aborigine in all this, when is he judged, when will the Christ be good tidings and great joy to him?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Brother, here is another passage that came to mind, " For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: and they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more." (Hebrews 8:10-12)

Per this passage, the Lord can be revealed to the "least to the greatest" per being directly taught by the Holy Spirit giving them a knew heart. "When Keller was young, Anne Sullivan introduced her to Phillips Brooks, who introduced her to Christianity, Keller famously saying: "I always knew He was there, but I didn't know His name!"[30][31][32]"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Keller

But then if "all know him " how can you believe in Election.....should it not be all those chosen by God as His own know him?

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Brother Earth, Wind, and Fire wrote

But then if "all know him " how can you believe in Election.....should it not be all those chosen by God as His own know him?

The all in the text refers to all of the elect. There are many scriptures that utilize the word "all", but do not refer to every human being. If you wish I can provide you with some.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The all in the text refers to all of the elect. There are many scriptures that utilize the word "all", but do not refer to every human being. If you wish I can provide you with some.

Nope....I'm one of those who believes that if God spends thetime with you that you will never reject him.

But now lets examine my darling wife's spiritual walk for a moment. She believes in Christ but isn't particullary a Bible student...nor is she a church goer....not after the Presbys got through with her....long story short they soured her to organized religion. So do you consider her saved?

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Brother Earth, Wind, and Fire wrote

Nope....I'm one of those who believes that if God spends thetime with you that you will never reject him.

But now lets examine my darling wife's spiritual walk for a moment. She believes in Christ but isn't particullary a Bible student...nor is she a church goer....not after the Presbys got through with her....long story short they soured her to organized religion. So do you consider her saved?

Brother, I don't know her heart. I do know scripture declares, " Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: and every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world" (1 John 4:2-3)

It is pretty straightforward. Remember, the gospel is simply the declaration that Christ died for sinners and rose again. "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 by which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:" (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

Not every believer will know all the nuisances regarding the various doctrines of grace. To prove that one only needs to look at the churches of Galatia and Corinth.

What I object to is when some of those who follow the doctrine of conditional time salvation conclude that there can be antichrists who go to heaven! That doctrine is absurd and a heresy, but I see how one can conclude that if they first believe that the believers sanctification is not a work of God, but rather dependent upon them.

 

[Yeshua1]

Nope....I'm one of those who believes that if God spends thetime with you that you will never reject him.

But now lets examine my darling wife's spiritual walk for a moment. She believes in Christ but isn't particullary a Bible student...nor is she a church goer....not after the Presbys got through with her....long story short they soured her to organized religion. So do you consider her saved?

The ONLY thing God requires to have lost sinner saved is that they receive Jesus per personal faith unto Him, and right then starts having eternal life!

Should we be in a good church, fellowshipping?

Yes, not a requirement for salvation though!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The ONLY thing God requires to have lost sinner saved is that they receive Jesus per personal faith unto Him, and right then starts having eternal life!

Should we be in a good church, fellowshipping?

Yes, not a requirement for salvation though!

Remember brother....I live in NJ.:laugh:

 

[OldRegular]

Remember, the gospel is simply the declaration that Christ died for sinners and rose again.

Actually the Gospel is more than that:

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Brother Old Regular wrote

Actually the Gospel is more than that:

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

First notice, the verse says "it is the power of God", thus it must be coincided that when one believes the gospel it is because of God's power not man's will. Also notice the verse says "unto salvation to every one that believeth". It is important to notice that this applies to "every one that believeth", thus they already believe the gospel, they are not going to believe the gospel to get salvation, as some unfortunately interpret this scripture. If this were the case, Paul would not have addressed the audience he is writing to as already being saints "to all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: " (Romans 1:17a). The words "to be" appear in italics because they were added by the translators and do not appear in the original. "The italicized words in the King James Bible are words that were added by the translators to help the reader. This is usually necessary when translating from one language to another because word meanings and idioms change. So, to produce a more readable translation, the King James translators (1604- 1611) added certain words to the Bible text. However, to make sure that everyone understood that these words were not in the available manuscripts they set them in italics. http://www.biblebelievers.com/jmelton/italics.html

Many think the book of Romans was written to save it's readers, but if this is the case he wouldn't have called the recipients saints. So what exactly does the gospel do? 2 Timothy 1:10(b) tells us, " our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:". The gospel brings "to light" life and immortality. Notice the "life and immortality" was already within the regenerated soul, the gospel makes the believer aware of how they became saved, so to speak it brings it to "lightL. This is why the verse after the verse you cited in Romans states "For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, the just shall live by faith." (Romans 1:17), hence the gospel reveals the righteousness of God to the child of God, it does not bring an eternal justification by believing it via faith (i.e. the false doctrine of gospel regeneration). Belief in the gospel is evidence of eternal salvation, not the means of obtaining it.

 

[percho]

First notice, the verse says "it is the power of God", thus it must be coincided that when one believes the gospel it is because of God's power not man's will. Also notice the verse says "unto salvation to every one that believeth". It is important to notice that this applies to "every one that believeth", thus they already believe the gospel, they are not going to believe the gospel to get salvation, as some unfortunately interpret this scripture. If this were the case, Paul would not have addressed the audience he is writing to as already being saints "to all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: " (Romans 1:17a). The words "to be" appear in italics because they were added by the translators and do not appear in the original. "The italicized words in the King James Bible are words that were added by the translators to help the reader. This is usually necessary when translating from one language to another because word meanings and idioms change. So, to produce a more readable translation, the King James translators (1604- 1611) added certain words to the Bible text. However, to make sure that everyone understood that these words were not in the available manuscripts they set them in italics. http://www.biblebelievers.com/jmelton/italics.html

Many think the book of Romans was written to save it's readers, but if this is the case he wouldn't have called the recipients saints. So what exactly does the gospel do? 2 Timothy 1:10(b) tells us, " our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:". The gospel brings "to light" life and immortality. Notice the "life and immortality" was already within the regenerated soul, the gospel makes the believer aware of how they became saved, so to speak it brings it to "lightL. This is why the verse after the verse you cited in Romans states "For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, the just shall live by faith." (Romans 1:17), hence the gospel reveals the righteousness of God to the child of God, it does not bring an eternal justification by believing it via faith (i.e. the false doctrine of gospel regeneration). Belief in the gospel is evidence of eternal salvation, not the means of obtaining it.

A great post.

Faith ='s, the belief God the Father had in the Son of God being obedient unto shedding his life's blood unto death even the death on the cross. Because of that faith, God before the foundation of the world, placed Jesus Christ, his Son, as the place of mercy, propitiation.

The Father raising the Son from the dead is the grace of God, revealing the righteousness of God.

The sinless one gave his life a ransom and received the grace of God.

Our salvation comes to us, according to the mercy above by the grace of God through the faith of God.

The resurrected Jesus became the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen.

Who by him (Jesus) do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 1 Peter 1:21


Rom 1:5 Paul was made an apostle because the above, obedience of faith.
Rom 16:25,26 the gospel was preached to the nations because of the above, obedience of faith. Translators should have left out all those help words.

 

[Yeshua1]

Remember brother....I live in NJ.:laugh:

Might need to start and establish a strong cell support group...