Temporal Salvation

[kyredneck]

I used the term post resurrection, because Paul described Christ's resurrection as part of the gospel. He wrote, " Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 by which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:" (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

After Christ accomplished the gospel by rising again, there has not been a single example of a child of God in scripture who was born again, but never heard of the gospel or rejected it, therefore it is illogical to assume this occurs (and perhaps even quite often) in regenerated children of God in this age, however many believers who advocate conditional time salvation preach this. I use to be a member of a Primitive Baptist church that will go unnamed that had elders who actually believed there could be things such as elect Muslims for example, who never believe the gospel, yet are born again. They pointed to their good works as evidence of them having the "fruit of the Spirit". This is heresy and for awhile I hate to admit it, but I too was fooled by them.

Ok. Thank you for that. You now stand with the majority on this issue.

My other question was, 'Has God changed since the resurrection'?

 

[kyredneck]

Hi brother Convicted. I believe in time salvation, but believe it is accomplished solely through the Holy Spirit working in us and will surely (not might) come about in the life of a regenerated child of God. "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 [B]For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. " (Philippians 2:12-13)

A link that lays out my belief more in depth is by Elder Poole and can be found here
http://www.the-remnant.com/conditional2.htm

Both links you've provided are 'hard reads' to me (by no means not the first hard PB read I've encountered); excerpt:

"The advocates of Conditional Time Salvation habitually interchange the expressions, Conditional Time Salvation and Time Salvation, as if they were the same. We expect to show the differences."

Can you tell me in your own words, briefly, what is the difference between Conditional Time Salvation and Time Salvation?

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Brother Kyredneck

Ok. Thank you for that. You now stand with the majority on this issue.

My other question was, 'Has God changed since the resurrection'?

No brother Ky.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Brother KY Redneck wrote

Both links you've provided are 'hard reads' to me (by no means not the first hard PB read I've encountered); excerpt:

"The advocates of Conditional Time Salvation habitually interchange the expressions, Conditional Time Salvation and Time Salvation, as if they were the same. We expect to show the differences."

Can you tell me in your own words, briefly, what is the difference between Conditional Time Salvation and Time Salvation?

Brother KY, I would strongly recommend you read the article I posted by Elder Boaz when you have time. (I know parts of it are a hard read, but it is a great article).

In Conditional time salvation it is conditioned upon an individual's will after being regenerated to believe the gospel, repent, and walk in good works, etc., hence it is concluded that some, but not all children of God will believe the gospel, repent, and do good works. In time salvation, it is monergistic in a similar manner as is our regeneration (i.e. God is doing all the work in the believer as it mentions in the Philippians passage I previously cited), thus the outcome of the regenerated soul believing the gospel, doing good works, and repenting is guaranteed and the believer can take no credit for it.

 

[kyredneck]

No brother Ky.

Ok. Thank you again for that. Please be patient, I mean you no malice, another question:

Did God have a people among the Gentiles outside of the Mosaic Covenant?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Don't know why you are being so hard headed on this; are you just out to harass EWF

Ha ha yea.....his slip is showing:smilewinkgrin:

 

[kyredneck]

Brother KY, I would strongly recommend you read the article I posted by Elder Boaz when you have time. (I know parts of it are a hard read, but it is a great article).

In Conditional time salvation it is conditioned upon an individual's will after being regenerated to believe the gospel, repent, and walk in good works, etc., hence it is concluded that some, but not all children of God will believe the gospel, repent, and do good works. In time salvation, it is monergistic in a similar manner as is our regeneration (i.e. God is doing all the work in the believer as it mentions in the Philippians passage I previously cited), thus the outcome of the regenerated soul believing the gospel, doing good works, and repenting is guaranteed and the believer can take no credit for it.

Ok. Thank you very much for that. You stand with orthodox Calvinist/Reformed folks on this point. But let me make sure I understand you. You hold that every one of God's redeemed will eventually make a profession of Christ as LORD and will become a disciple?

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Brother KYredneck wrote

Ok. Thank you again for that. Please be patient, I mean you no malice, another question:

Did God have a people among the Gentiles outside of the Mosaic Covenant?

Yes, but to take that fact and to conclude that a child of God with the Holy Spirit abiding in him could possibly reject the gospel is heresy. As I said in the New Testament after the resurrection, there is not one example of such. If there is, please give it to me.

All the good works we do are attributable only to Christ. "But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace which was bestowed upon me, was not in vain, but I labored more abundantly than they all; yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me." (I Cor. 15:10) He labored, yet it was not him, it was grace that wrought. The same Apostle says, "For we know not what we should pray for as we ought; but the spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered." (Romans 8:26)

"For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. (Romans 7:18)

It is a necessary result of regeneration that it is given unto God's children to believe on Christ " For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him..., (Philippians 1:29A). Further, Paul wrote he was not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ, "for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth." (Romans 1:16) Did you notice that Paul said, "unto salvation to every one that believeth?" Not to every one if they will believe it. Who is it that believeth? Those that are born again.

 

[kyredneck]

Yes, but to take that fact and to conclude that a child of God with the Holy Spirit abiding in him could possibly reject the gospel is heresy.

Heresy? God redeemed with a strong hand out of the land of bondage a multitude who rejected His gospel command to go in and possess the land. Does that mean they were not redeemed after all? Are you saying it's not possible for any of His children to have an evil heart of unbelief?

I suggest to you that God's children are capable of doing everything they're told NOT to do in the Book.

As I said in the New Testament after the resurrection, there is not one example of such. If there is, please give it to me.

Still not quite getting your emphasis on 'after the resurrection' here, but yes, it is recorded that many believed secretly, don't know how pertinent that is to your question or even if it's possible to answer the question.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Brother Kyredneck wrote

Ok. Thank you very much for that. You stand with orthodox Calvinist/Reformed folks on this point. But let me make sure I understand you. You hold that every one of God's redeemed will eventually make a profession of Christ as LORD and will become a disciple?

Brother KY, it is noteworthy that the doctrine of conditional time salvation did not appear in any Primitive Baptist writings until around the time of the civil war. (Please see elder Poole's quotes from past Primitive Baptist elders/writings from the article I provided). This isn't the doctrine that the original Primitive Baptists held too as proven by the quotes from the Poole article. They held to time salvation, not conditional time salvation. The doctrine is not reformed or Calvinist as many of those brothers believe in gospel regeneration and/or eternal justification being by faith, but we know Abraham was righteous, prior to being justified by faith.

Ephesians 3:21 says, "unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen." If this doctrine of conditional time salvation was true, since there the church existed since the time of the apostles, wouldn't you expect to find writings from individuals within the church throughout history in regards to this doctrine? I would.

If God is sovereign, doesn't it follow that all the elect will believe on him? Can you name anyone in the post resurrection new testament that was regenerated, but failed to believe upon him?

I do not believe that God always uses a two legged preacher to reveal Christ to a child of God. Take John the Baptist for example who know Jesus from his mother's womb and also Paul who received by direct Revelation from Christ about who Jesus is. "They shall not teach every man his neighbor and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord." and "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put My law into their mind and write them in their hearts, and I will be to them a God and they shall be to Me a people."

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Brother Kyredneck wrote

Still not quite getting your emphasis on 'after the resurrection' here, but yes, it is recorded that many believed secretly, don't know how pertinent that is to your question or even if it's possible to answer the question.

Brother KY, Those that believed secretly had a knowledge of who he was that they learned directly from Jesus's teachings and they did "believe", thus this is not an example of a regenerated child of God not knowing or believing the gospel and going to heaven.

 

[kyredneck]

Brother KY, it is noteworthy that the doctrine of conditional time salvation did not appear in any Primitive Baptist writings until around the time of the civil war. (Please see elder Poole's quotes from past Primitive Baptist elders/writings from the article I provided). This isn't the doctrine that the original Primitive Baptists held too as proven by the quotes from the Poole article. They held to time salvation, not conditional time salvation. The doctrine is not reformed or Calvinist as many of those brothers believe in gospel regeneration and/or eternal justification being by faith, but we know Abraham was righteous, prior to being justified by faith.

Ephesians 3:21 says, "unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen." If this doctrine of conditional time salvation was true, since there the church existed since the time of the apostles, wouldn't you expect to find writings from individuals within the church throughout history in regards to this doctrine? I would.

If God is sovereign, doesn't it follow that all the elect will believe on him? Can you name anyone in the post resurrection new testament that was regenerated, but failed to believe upon him?

I do not believe that God always uses a two legged preacher to reveal Christ to a child of God. Take John the Baptist for example who know Jesus from his mother's womb and also Paul who received by direct Revelation from Christ about who Jesus is. "They shall not teach every man his neighbor and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord." and "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put My law into their mind and write them in their hearts, and I will be to them a God and they shall be to Me a people."

So you do you hold that every one of God's redeemed will eventually make a profession of Christ as LORD and will become a disciple.

A couple things; this sounds similar to the LS Doctrine that some promote here, and, the implication of that is that there is indeed very few of us after all, those bound for heaven that is. It also reminds me of some decree from some 'Church council' centuries ago that declared, "There is no salvation outside the Church".

"We know Abraham was righteous, prior to being justified by faith". It makes my heart happy to know you hold to that.

I've got to take Dad some food and watch the granddaughter practice her "nastics". I'm very much enjoying this dialog with you Brother Joe, please don't run off, Lord willing, you've given me much to mull over and comment on.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

One common verse that I have heard those that believe in conditional time salvation preach to teach the idea of regenerated children of God going to heaven and never hearing the gospel is the verse that says, "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; (Revelation 5:9)

However, they ignore the verse that states, "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people" (Revelation 14:6)

Further, we read we are "saved by grace through faith" in Ephesians, thus all the elect will have faith. How does faith come? It is a gift of God given by hearing the gospel. We know this because Romans 10:17 declares that “…faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”Thus I conclude all the elect will hear and have faith in the gospel prior to their death, either being revealed to them by the two legged preacher, an angel in heaven, or direct revelation by Jesus himself (as was the case with Paul).

The gospel is simply the declaration that Christ died for our sins and rose again, this is what will be believed, however the specific nuisances of how a child of God is regenerated by grace alone and justified eternally by his blood may not be known or revealed in their lifetime as was seen with the Corinthians, "And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ" (1 Corinthians 3:1) and "3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him." (2 Corinthians 11:3-4).

I believe there will be a multitude in Heaven from many denominations ( Catholics, Methodists, etc), but no one who never knew who Jesus was (born after the resurrection) and who never knew who Jesus was while they lived.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Brother Kyredneckwrote

So you do you hold that every one of God's redeemed will eventually make a profession of Christ as LORD and will become a disciple.
I've got to take Dad some food and watch the granddaughter practice her "nastics". I'm very much enjoying this dialog with you Brother Joe, please don't run off, Lord willing, you've given me much to mull over and comment on.

Hi brother Ky, don't worry I won't run off I too am enjoying the dialogue! I must add I do not think the Primitive Baptist church should have split over this doctrine as neither "time salvation" or "conditional time salvation" are in any church's articles of faith from either side (at least as far as I know). Have fun with your granddaughter! I don't have any, but I do have 9 cats! Don't think I' m crazy though, it is because my wife works at a cat shelter. It just sorta happened!

I won't be running off, but will not be on the forum Friday-Monday, will be back on Tuesday.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Hi brother Ky, don't worry I won't run off I too am enjoying the dialogue! I must add I do not think the Primitive Baptist church should have split over this doctrine as neither "time salvation" or "conditional time salvation" are in any church's articles of faith from either side (at least as far as I know). Have fun with your granddaughter! I don't have any, but I do have 9 cats! Don't think I' m crazy though, it is because my wife works at a cat shelter. It just sorta happened!

I won't be running off, but will not be on the forum Friday-Monday, will be back on Tuesday.

Ahhh...feel your pain....thats why I have 4 dogs. :thumbs:

 

[Rippon]

Don't know why you are being so hard headed on this, is your sole intent to bash the PBs?

In post #67 I had clearly said "taught by some Primitive Baptists." Some means some, not all. I will just have to repeat myself. The beliefs detailed in the OP are theological novelties. No person or group taught this stuff before the 19th century. It's an aberration from orthodox Christianity. More importantly, it is not taught in the Bible. It's not even an article of faith from any PB group that I have found on the internet. (Obviously, I haven't checked out every single one.)

Of all members on this board, I would expect that you, Rippon, should be able understand the doctrine, regardless of the 'heterodoxy of the terminology' used by the PBs.

It's not an issue of heterodox terminology --but the doctrine itself.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Another passage that proves all the elect will hear and believe the gospel, "in whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed..." (Ephesians 1:13(a))

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Brother KYRedneck,

Do you disagree with my definition of conditional time salvation that I gave in a previous post? Also, who is responsible for the good fruit produced after regeneration?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

One common verse that I have heard those that believe in conditional time salvation preach to teach the idea of regenerated children of God going to heaven and never hearing the gospel is the verse that says, "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; (Revelation 5:9)r

However, they ignore the verse that states, "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people" (Revelation 14:6)

Further, we read we are "saved by grace through faith" in Ephesians, thus all the elect will have faith. How does faith come? It is a gift of God given by hearing the gospel. We know this because Romans 10:17 declares that “…faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”Thus I conclude all the elect will hear and have faith in the gospel prior to their death, either being revealed to them by the two legged preacher, an angel in heaven, or direct revelation by Jesus himself (as was the case with Paul).

The gospel is simply the declaration that Christ died for our sins and rose again, this is what will be believed, however the specific nuisances of how a child of God is regenerated by grace alone and justified eternally by his blood may not be known or revealed in their lifetime as was seen with the Corinthians, "And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ" (1 Corinthians 3:1) and "3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him." (2 Corinthians 11:3-4).

I believe there will be a multitude in Heaven from many denominations ( Catholics, Methodists, etc), but no one who never knew who Jesus was (born after the resurrection) and who never knew who Jesus was while they lived.

And how does someone who dies in infancy or someone severely brain damaged....how do they hear the gospel?

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Brother Earth, Wind, and Fire wrote

And how does someone who dies in infancy or someone severely brain damaged....how do they hear the gospel?

God is all powerful. If he can cause a virgin birth and produce the Son of God out of it, is it impossible for him to do those things you speak of above? Consider this passage, " And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost" (Luke 1:41)

Apparently John The Baptist was able to recognize the sound of his savior's mothers voice when he was yet unborn, or else why would he leap in the womb? God is sovereign and is not bound by the limitations understood by man.

Many conditional time Salvationist Primitives will often use the same question you posed to me to others, to convert them to their doctrine. I know through firsthand experience. (I love them and learned much from them regarding how eternal salvation is wrought, but am afraid they are misguided when it comes to time salvation).

Now as to the question of will all the elect hear the gospel scripture tells us," being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:", would it be considered performed if the end result was a "regenerated" Muslim who dies not knowing his savior? Also, this verse touches on time salvation by showing it is God who performs the works in us. Scripture teaches us anything good that comes from us, is from God because nothing good is in us outside of God.