Temporal Salvation

[Rippon]

Where did this come from EWF? Is someone posting I can't see?

FYI : You have to be aware of some things about EW&F's posting habits. Many of his remarks have no bearing on anything anyone has said. His thought patterns are not very orderly. And many times he does not answer direct questions.

 

[T Alan]

FYI : You have to be aware of some things about EW&F's posting habits. Many of his remarks have no bearing on anything anyone has said. His thought patterns are not very orderly. And many times he does not answer direct questions.

Why yes, My truck is indeed green, JohnDeere green to be exact. Thanks for the change.

 

[percho]

I am sure that all here believe Jesus’ cry from the cross, “It is Finished,” was true. Whether or not that definitely finished work, that propitiation itself, effected and achieved that salvation for individuals is an entirely different issue. There are some, myself included, who view redemption as God’s plan of reconciliation which includes, but is not only, Christ’s death. My point was not to demean Primitive Baptists or others who hold a different view of the Atonement, but to point out that the article is dependent on precisely that one dimensional view of Christ’s death. This is why I cannot agree with the article. I do believe the article well written, although perhaps more narrow in scope than indicated.

I agree with your understanding in post 6, concerning the article.

Yet when Jesus said, "It is finished," that is not what sealed eternal salvation. What was finished was Jesus the Son of God born of woman was about to accomplish his mission, the just giving his life for the unjust. Jesus is about to die for our sins and or the sin of the world.

Death does not bring life nor salvation. All souls were to die for their own sin. One could not die for another for all have sinned and their death would be for their own sin. Yet Jesus, the sinless one, died for our sins.

Where does salvation come from? What is the righteousness of God? What is the grace of God that brings salvation for all men? Exactly when was eternal salvation, authored? Is it righteous that one sinless should be dead forever (separated from the Father forever, "My God My God Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me." "Father into your hands I commend my spirit," My life.

It is finished, We have a dead Christ.

And if Christ be not raised, your faith vain; ye are yet in your sins. 1 Cor 15:17

When Jesus said, "it is finished," the faith (of God his Father) came. The moment the Father raised the Son from the dead, the grace of God came.

The resurrected Jesus Christ became the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1 Faith (a noun)

The article spoke of the seed of Abraham, the Christ, relative to covenant salvation. That same seed is also the Son of God spoken of in the everlasting covenant, before the foundation of the world.

The seed of Abraham, would be, the faith of Abraham, whereby Abraham would be imputed with righteousness.

Abraham died in the faith to come.

And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed, so that the law became our child-conductor -- to Christ, that by faith we may be declared righteous, and the faith having come, no more under a child-conductor are we, for ye are all sons of God through the faith in Christ Jesus, for as many as to Christ were baptized did put on Christ; (the Faith) Gal 3:23-27 YLT


IMHO. Salvation is all of God.

 

[T Alan]

I agree with your understanding in post 6, concerning the article.

Yet when Jesus said, "It is finished," that is not what sealed eternal salvation. What was finished was Jesus the Son of God born of woman was about to accomplish his mission, the just giving his life for the unjust. Jesus is about to die for our sins and or the sin of the world.

Death does not bring life nor salvation. All souls were to die for their own sin. One could not die for another for all have sinned and their death would be for their own sin. Yet Jesus, the sinless one, died for our sins.

Where does salvation come from? What is the righteousness of God? What is the grace of God that brings salvation for all men? Exactly when was eternal salvation, authored? Is it righteous that one sinless should be dead forever (separated from the Father forever, "My God My God Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me." "Father into your hands I commend my spirit," My life.

It is finished, We have a dead Christ.

And if Christ be not raised, your faith vain; ye are yet in your sins. 1 Cor 15:17

When Jesus said, "it is finished," the faith (of God his Father) came. The moment the Father raised the Son from the dead, the grace of God came.

The resurrected Jesus Christ became the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1 Faith (a noun)

The article spoke of the seed of Abraham, the Christ, relative to covenant salvation. That same seed is also the Son of God spoken of in the everlasting covenant, before the foundation of the world.

The seed of Abraham, would be, the faith of Abraham, whereby Abraham would be imputed with righteousness.

Abraham died in the faith to come.

And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed, so that the law became our child-conductor -- to Christ, that by faith we may be declared righteous, and the faith having come, no more under a child-conductor are we, for ye are all sons of God through the faith in Christ Jesus, for as many as to Christ were baptized did put on Christ; (the Faith) Gal 3:23-27


IMHO. Salvation is all of God.

See Leviticus 16, The Day of Atonement. Also see Hebrews, without the shedding of blood there is not remission of Sin. The Passover Lamb, Jesus Christ. The resurrection was our Justification, it was accepted by the Father. But the sin debt was paid on Calvary (as well as the Lamb that was slain before the foundations of the world.

 

[percho]

See Leviticus 16, The Day of Atonement. Also see Hebrews, without the shedding of blood there is not remission of Sin. The Passover Lamb, Jesus Christ. The resurrection was our Justification, it was accepted by the Father. But the sin debt was paid on Calvary (as well as the Lamb that was slain before the foundations of the world.

Nothing I said was contrary to to your post. As Paul said in Acts 17, the Christ must needs to have suffered, died, and be raised again.

The blood, that contained the life, therefore the precious blood, was the ransom paid, yet as 1 Cor 15:17 states if Christ be not raised that blood washed away no sins. For the blood to be effective, required regeneration, therefore,
by washing of regeneration and renewing of Holy Spirit we are saved.

That is speaking of the regeneration of Christ. IMO

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Earth Wind and Fire wrote
"Thats the most interesting thing to me....Mike Gowens deliberately details the theology but it is ignored or vilified.....nobody takes the time to dismantle it as if thtowing rocks at a barn will bring down the structure. Simply fascinating! Is there no one here with enough intellectual prowess to take it apart?!?"

Temporal Salvation is false if one concludes that an individual can be regenerated and never know that Christ died and rose again for their sins. The proof I offer? There is not one individual in the Post resurrection New Testament who died and was born again, but did not know who Jesus was!

If you really want a refutation of Gowens doctrine of temporal salvation please read this article by a Primitive Baptist elder from the 1800s. It is a free book and puts Gowens false doctrine to rest by disproving it from the Bible. http://www.mountzionpbc.org/books/boaz_salvation.htm

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Why yes, My truck is indeed green, JohnDeere green to be exact. Thanks for the change.

And snow is white and you still cant drive in it....not even with a 4 wheel drive truck.....get the thought process.

As far as Rips conserned, he is on ignore. One day he will figure out that that's why he doesn't get responded to. AINT LIFE GRAND:laugh:

 

[PreachTony]

You guys would have to learn to drive in snow first before I would consider a visit.:laugh:

I'd say that's fair enough, but seeing as it only snows once every 15 years around here, that would be a difficult thing to test. We get more ice storms than anything, and so far as I can tell, no one can effectively drive on ice. If you can't get traction, you can't move.

Of course, you'd have to learn how to handle 98°F days with 100% humidity to move down here. I used to work for a Penske Truck rental center and there was a gentleman from Hackensack who moved here in April. The day he arrived was actually above average by a bit for that time of year. It was about 85°F and the humidity was up. He asked me if it was always that hot. I just laughed and said "No sir, wait until August."

 

[kyredneck]

One salvation with two aspects. An eternal aspect in which you were totally passive and a temporal aspect in which you are active.

I'm not sure, EWF, if we can discuss a topic that some have labeled "two aspects of a single salvation" without veering into the C & A argument. The notion that man has no input in his salvation is, from what I've noticed around here, the heart of the C & A argument....

That is perceptive on your part. A difficulty held in common with all theologies is where to draw the line, or make a clear distinction, between God's sovereignty and man’s responsibility. At what point does the realm of the eternal where man is totally passive end, and where does the realm of the temporal where man is active and held accountable begin?

The Primitives in general have given it their best shot to do this and rightly divide by making the distinction between eternal salvation (election, regeneration, etc.) and gospel salvation (obedience, belief, profession of Christ as LORD). A short easy read on this is another of Elder Mike Gowens' essays:

Born Again: The Doctrine of Effectual Calling

There also is a distinction to be made between the eternal and the temporal aspects of the kingdom, but that’s another topic.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I'd say that's fair enough, but seeing as it only snows once every 15 years around here, that would be a difficult thing to test. We get more ice storms than anything, and so far as I can tell, no one can effectively drive on ice. If you can't get traction, you can't move.

Of course, you'd have to learn how to handle 98°F days with 100% humidity to move down here. I used to work for a Penske Truck rental center and there was a gentleman from Hackensack who moved here in April. The day he arrived was actually above average by a bit for that time of year. It was about 85°F and the humidity was up. He asked me if it was always that hot. I just laughed and said "No sir, wait until August."

Yea....thats why Im opting for the FLA Keys.....if its that hot I will be out fishing.:love2:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

There also is a distinction to be made between the eternal and the temporal aspects of the kingdom, but that’s another topic.

If its pertinent to the conversation, then by all means raise the subject man!

 

[PreachTony]

That is perceptive on your part. A difficulty held in common with all theologies is where to draw the line, or make a clear distinction, between God's sovereignty and man’s responsibility. At what point does the realm of the eternal where man is totally passive end, and where does the realm of the temporal where man is active and held accountable begin?

The Primitives in general have given it their best shot to do this and rightly divide by making the distinction between eternal salvation (election, regeneration, etc.) and gospel salvation (obedience, belief, profession of Christ as LORD).

Defining terms is often the downfall of polite discussion among any group of people. We reach our first great gulf in this discussion when we realize that some of us do not hold to the idea that only a few will ever have the chance at salvation. This is before we even discuss the differing aspects of the single salvation. According to election doctrine, only a few will even be regenerated and drawn to salvation. That does not click, for me at least, with the scripture in John 12:32 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

Again, your definition of terms will actively define your interpretation of that scripture. It has been commented in the past on this forum that when the Bible says "the world," or it says "all men," it actually means only those elect of God. To some people that makes perfect scriptural sense. To others, like myself, it seems a cherry-picked method of interpretation. Of course, my partial-preterist eclectic amillennialism is considered a cherry-picked theology by a lot of people. You have to follow what you feel the Lord has led you to, so long as it is supported by the Scripture, which ought to be our final authority on pretty much all of these issues.

Yea....thats why Im opting for the FLA Keys.....if its that hot I will be out fishing.:love2:

Can't say I blame you for that. I've never made it to the Keys. Farthest south I've ever been is Orlando. I typically prefer to go north into the Appalachians and the Great Smokies. Gatlinburg is one of my favorite tourist towns, but for the serenity and quiet you can't beat Cataloochee Valley near Waynesville, NC.

 

[kyredneck]

... We reach our first great gulf in this discussion when we realize that some of us do not hold to the idea that only a few will ever have the chance at salvation....

Every PB I know will agree with Spurgeon on this:

"I believe there will be more in Heaven than in hell. If anyone asks me why I think so, I answer, because Christ, in everything, is to "have the preeminence," and I cannot conceive how He could have the preeminence if there are to be more in the dominions of Satan than in Paradise. Moreover, I have never read that there is to be in hell a great multitude, which no man could number." —Charles Spurgeon
The Autobiography of Charles H. Spurgeon: 1834-1854

 

[PreachTony]

Every PB I know will agree with Spurgeon on this:

"I believe there will be more in Heaven than in hell. If anyone asks me why I think so, I answer, because Christ, in everything, is to "have the preeminence," and I cannot conceive how He could have the preeminence if there are to be more in the dominions of Satan than in Paradise. Moreover, I have never read that there is to be in hell a great multitude, which no man could number." —Charles Spurgeon
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1620598#post1620598

But then there's this:

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

That, to me, says more will go unto damnation than will enter into eternal life. We're talking about vast multitudes either way. We never hear about countless multitudes in Hell because we never receive clearly defined descriptions of Hell beyond just a few statements in scripture.

 

[kyredneck]

But then there's this:


That, to me, says more will go unto damnation than will enter into eternal life. We're talking about vast multitudes either way. We never hear about countless multitudes in Hell because we never receive clearly defined descriptions of Hell beyond just a few statements in scripture.

You, my friend, have just demonstrated the root cause of a very large portion of the confusion. Christ makes no mention of heaven or hell in that passage, YOU inserted eternal consequences into the context.

 

[PreachTony]

You, my friend, have just demonstrated the root cause of a very large portion of the confusion. Christ makes no mention of heaven or hell in that passage, YOU inserted eternal consequences into the context.

What, then, is Christ talking about? Points like this are where we run into confusion as a result of interpretation.

He says that the gate that "leads to life" is narrow and few will enter. What could he be talking about other then Himself, as He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life?

 

[kyredneck]

Perhaps your partial preterist leaning will allow you another consideration on this. Mt 7:13-14 is prophetic, spoken by 'the Prophet, and directed to 'that generation' of Jews on whom the 'consummation of the age' was coming, most of whom which God was not well pleased, and He sware in His wrath that they would not enter into His rest, and they were broken off from the 'abundant life' of the New Covenant.

'Few are they that find it' is reminiscent of 'the Exodus (or wilderness) Generation' whose numbers have been estimated as high as 2.5 million and of which only two (2) (Joshua and Caleb) of that generation made it into the promised land. The rest entered not in because of unbelief. Even Moses and Aaron entered not in because of unbelief. The Exodus Generation is used several times as examples in the NT. I believe Christ is alluding to it here in the Sermon on the Mount. Few would be the Jews that would find or enter into the sabbath rest of Heb 4:9.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You, my friend, have just demonstrated the root cause of a very large portion of the confusion. Christ makes no mention of heaven or hell in that passage, YOU inserted eternal consequences into the context.

Ahhh....BINGO!

 

[salzer mtn]

Having different definitions does not surprise me at all. It's pretty much the norm here at the BB.

I'll grant you this: my church, and most of our sister churches in the area, are smaller churches, typically with crowds of 100 or less on any given Sunday morning. That being the case, we are much more tightly knit than the local larger churches, and far more tightly knit than the local megachurch. So getting up and hugging someone is not uncommon. In fact, during a service a few years ago, during our altar call, the pastor suddenly turned and grabbed me in a bear hug. When he turned back his son was in the altar praying. He later told me that he had been asking the Lord what he needed to do to help point his son toward salvation, and he said the Lord's answer that morning was "turn and hug the home preacher." If he had sat on that and not done it, then who know what blessing he would've missed out on.

I consider failing to do what the Lord tells you to do as just one part of quenching the Spirit. That's not my full definition. I have not read anything by Martyn Lloyd Jones, specifically not "Joy Unspeakable," though I'll tack it on to the list of things to read. That's a bit of a long list for me at the moment, though, to be honest.

This is just the same as saying the pastor that turned to hug you is taking full credit for his son coming to the altar. In these free will churches people look for every opportunity to take credit for someone else's salvation. If the son had not came to the altar the pastor would have never told you this. Do you actually think people of this mind set leave a worship service humbled by the grace of God to sinners ? No. They are constantly taught that without them God can do nothing, so they look for sign's in voices to do something for jesus to lift up their ego and then leave the so called worship service in a state of pride.

 

[PreachTony]

This is just the same as saying the pastor that turned to hug you is taking full credit for his son coming to the altar. In these free will churches people look for every opportunity to take credit for someone else's salvation. If the son had not came to the altar the pastor would have never told you this. Do you actually think people of this mind set leave a worship service humbled by the grace of God to sinners ? No. They are constantly taught that without them God can do nothing, so they look for sign's in voices to do something for jesus to lift up their ego and then leave the so called worship service in a state of pride.

Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.

Did Philip take credit for what happened to the Ethiopian? No. Not everyone who does what they feel the Lord is telling them to do does so with the intent of taking credit for God's work. But I appreciate you casting such a negative light on my former pastor and my church, salzer.