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Liz Catholics believe purgatory is a part of the salvation process. While they may say the people in purgatory are "saved" they aren't completely saved or they wouldn't be in purgatory. Purgatory has to do with a person's eternal destiny.Yes, well, I have met several Catholics who would say exactly the same thing of purgatory - they emphasise most strongly that those in purgatory ARE SAVED. SO I repeat, what's the difference - apart from duration?
Well, all I can say is, I have yet to meet a Catholic who would agree with you. I don't think we do anything to help the Gospel if we attack straw men rather than what people actually believe.J. Jump said:Liz Catholics believe purgatory is a part of the salvation process. While they may say the people in purgatory are "saved" they aren't completely saved or they wouldn't be in purgatory. Purgatory has to do with a person's eternal destiny.
The gospel of the kingdom doesn't have anything to do with a person's eternal destiny.
Hope that helps.
Well, all I can say is, I have yet to meet a Catholic who would agree with you. I don't think we do anything to help the Gospel if we attack straw men rather than what people actually believe.
According to Catholic doctrine, there is only way out of purgatory and that is into heaven. It is not possible to leave purgatory and go to hell, only to leave it and go to heaven. So, apart from the duration, I repeat, what is the difference? I see none.
I understand completely the need to differentiate between those who said the "sinners prayer" under some momentary persuasion, and those who are truly saved, but I think there is a far easier way to differentiate between the two. The "sinners prayer" saves no-one, and those who insist on using it for their "converts" should never assure such a person of salvation until the fruit proves that the tree is good.
Liz Ward said:Well, all I can say is, I have yet to meet a Catholic who would agree with you. I don't think we do anything to help the Gospel if we attack straw men rather than what people actually believe.
Liz
I'm not into guilt by association. What I asked you was, what is the difference between your view and the Catholic doctrine of purgatory - apart from the length of time involved? It was simply a question, not an accusation.Lacy Evans said:And yet Liz, forgive me if i am wrong, this seems to be exactly what you have done. If I attacked communion because of its similarities to the RC Mass, where would it get us. Why not attack what I believe instead of erecting a Purgatory-guilty-by-(percieved)association straw man?
Lacy
I was not asking for a complete run-down of all the things Catholics believe that you don't - I am not intending to imply that you are a Catholic. I merely want to know what the difference is between purgatory and spending the millennium in hell, that's all. The only difference I see so far is one of duration.J. Jump said:Well I will read up more on what you have stated. However, there are several differences still. One is that the ultimate goal of purgatory is to get to heaven, and that's not the ultimate goal of the gospel of the kingdom, as our final resting place is not in "heaven" as church tradition whether RCC or protestantism claims.
Another difference is that Catholics believe that prayers of either saints or themselves can help the process along.
I think a more profitable approach would be to see what Scripture has to say about the gospel of the kingdom and let Scripture shape us instead of trying to make comparisons to purgatory.
Let's just see what Scripture says and let's believe It for what It says regardless of what other denominations think or believe. Wouldn't that be a better approach?
Then you obviously didn't read the entire post that you quoted, because I gave you two more differences in that.The only difference I see so far is one of duration.
Yes - and I said I was interested in differences between your teaching about Christians spending the milennium in hell, and the Catholic teaching on purgatory, not in other differences between Baptist and Catholic doctrine. I do know what those differences are!J. Jump said:Then you obviously didn't read the entire post that you quoted, because I gave you two more differences in that.
James_Newman said:It is true that Millennial Exclusion and Purgatory sound similar. But understand that a Catholic must work for salvation, and just because you may say that a Catholic who goes to purgatory is already 'saved', you forget that if a Catholic doesn't have enough good works they wont go to purgatory.
[snip]The problem with rejecting purgatory strictly on the basis of punishment after death is that the bible teaches punishment after death. There are many problems with purgatory, but that isn't one of them.
Liz Ward said:Well, these days most Catholics don't seem to think anyone is going to hell, with the possible exception of ex-catholics. But I take your point - still, it isn't relevant to my question.
So as far as I can see, this is a doctrine you share with Rome, though you disagree on the duration.
Liz
James_Newman said:Is that the guilt by association argument again? Rome believes in the trinity, do you?
Liz Ward said:No guilt by association, James, I told you, I don't do that. It's just that now I am clear where you are coming from, that's all. We haven't come across this doctrine yet in the UK. When did it arise, do you know? (I mean the "baptist purgatory" bit, not the Trinity!)
L:iz
Actually you can go back further than that if you wanted to, because it can be found in the OT types as well, although the authors of the OT didn't fully understand it I don't think.I would say it arose with the preaching of John the Baptist.