TEN Commandments - e.g. "do not take God's name in vain".. still moral law

[BobRyan]

Jesus was of the notion that Jews are superior, and that He came to save the Jews first. Paul wanted Christianity to be available to all people, even people who did not follow Jewish law. However, Jesus said, "Not one letter shall pass away from the law until all is accomplished."

The essence of sin is conscience. .

1 John 3:4 "Sin IS transgression of the LAW"
Romans 2 -- Paul makes the case "to the Jew FIRST and also to the gentile"

 

[Alcott]

So you are ... or are not ... in favor of taking God's name in vain for Christians??

I am not in favor of such.
Are you favor of making any likeness of anything?

 

[BobRyan]

We are still under the moral aspects of the Law, but we are saved by grace alone/faith alone!

true. the moral law of God includes His TEN Commandments and we are under the moral law of God as Christians -- having the "LAW of God written on the heart" Jer 31:31-33 ... that moral law known to Jeremiah and his contemporaries.

Saved by grace through faith does not mean "saved by grace to go on taking God's name in vain" and even these pro-Sunday groups would agree.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

 

[BobRyan]

I am not in favor of such.
Are you favor of making any likeness of anything?

You are taking the 2nd commandment "as if" it should be ignored - by misreading it... is that really your intent.

There were angels engraved in the curtain between the Holy and Most Holy Place in the days of Moses as well as Angel images ON the mercy seat in the Most Holy Place. By your strained rendering - you make God and Israel violaters of the commandment as you try to render it.

Is that your intent?

The commandment you are not fully quoting says this --

4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

And KJV makes it much more opposed to Catholic practices by saying this -

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

they did not bow down to those Angel images NOR even bow down before them intending to bow to the Angelic beings they represented NOR did they claim to SERVE those angels -- but rather God.

So "given" that you DO agree that you are not to take God's name in vain today - (a commandment never mentioned in the NT) AND given that you agree Abraham was also not supposed to commit that sin - even though the commandment is not quoted at all in the book of Genesis -- we are inline with what many pro-Sunday scholars also say about all TEN of the TEN Commandments - written on the heart since they are included in the moral law of God.

 

[robycop3]

I believe "taking God's name in vain" is ANY misuse of His name or any of His titles.

As for the Ten Commandments in general, the most-debated one is about the Sabbath. It was given only to Israel after the flood of Noah.

Col. 2:16 Therefore let no one judge you regarding food, or drink, or in respect of a holy day or new moon or sabbath days.

 

[HankD]

I believe "taking God's name in vain" is ANY misuse of His name or any of His titles.

As for the Ten Commandments in general, the most-debated one is about the Sabbath. It was given only to Israel after the flood of Noah.

Col. 2:16 Therefore let no one judge you regarding food, or drink, or in respect of a holy day or new moon or sabbath days.

"Sabbath" - refers to "rest" as well as the seventh day (The perfect rest which we are presently enjoying).

RSV Hebrews 4:9 So then, there remains a sabbath rest for the people of God;

We are keeping the Sabbath 24/7.

Jesus Christ IS our Sabbath.

Matthew 11
28 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

HankD



.

 

[BobRyan]

I believe "taking God's name in vain" is ANY misuse of His name or any of His titles.

As for the Ten Commandments in general, the most-debated one is about the Sabbath. It was given only to Israel after the flood of Noah.

Matt 7 "Judge not the that you be not judged" ... true before the cross... Col 2 it is true after the cross. "No change".

Taking God's name in vain -- a commandment never mentioned in the NT... but does not matter because it "applies anyway".

As for Sabbath for ALL MANKIND
"from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Isaiah 66:23... Did God "get that wrong"???
"Sabbath was made for MANKIND" Mark 2:27 -- Did Jesus "get that wrong"???

Isaiah 56:1-8 GENTILES specifically blessed for keeping the Bible Sabbath.
Exodus 20:11 God says the Genesis 2:1-3 facts "alone" make the Sabbath obligatory for man.
Acts 18:4 BOTH Jews AND God-fearing gentiles in the Synagogues "every SABBATH" for Gospel preaching.

 

[BobRyan]

"Sabbath" - refers to "rest" as well as the seventh day (The perfect rest which we are presently enjoying).

RSV Hebrews 4:9 So then, there remains a sabbath rest for the people of God;

We are keeping the Sabbath 24/7.

Jesus Christ IS our Sabbath.

Matthew 11
28 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

.

Matthew 11 is a statement by Christ before the cross -- Christ refuted the charge that He was breaking the Sabbath instead of agreeing with his accusers. How about -- we JOIN Christ in doing that.

In Matt 5 Christ condemned the notion that he came to set aside the Law of God ... How about -- we JOIN Christ in doing that.

In Mark 7:6-13 Christ condemned the practice of using church tradition to downsize/edit/set-aside even ONE of the TEN Commandments. How about -- we JOIN Christ in doing that.

Christ was spirit filled - AND was a Carpenter... but was not "making tables on the Bible Sabbath". Christ was not an "example" of rebellion against the Commandments of God.

Paul agrees with Christ in Romans 3:31

 

[Alcott]

You are taking the 2nd commandment "as if" it should be ignored - by misreading it... is that really your intent.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

And KJV makes it much more opposed to Catholic practices by saying this -

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Yes or No: is Exodus 20:4 a complete sentence; a complete thought and command by itself?

 

[HankD]

Matthew 11 is a statement by Christ before the cross -- Christ refuted the charge that He was breaking the Sabbath instead of agreeing with his accusers. How about -- we JOIN Christ in doing that.

In Matt 5 Christ condemned the notion that he came to set aside the Law of God ... How about -- we JOIN Christ in doing that.

In Mark 7:6-13 Christ condemned the practice of using church tradition to downsize/edit/set-aside even ONE of the TEN Commandments. How about -- we JOIN Christ in doing that.

Christ was spirit filled - AND was a Carpenter... but was not "making tables on the Bible Sabbath". Christ was not an "example" of rebellion against the Commandments of God.

Paul agrees with Christ in Romans 3:31

Repeat:

Matthew 11
28 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

Hebrews 4
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
12 For the word (Grk. Logos) of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

How about -- we obey the Logos in doing that.

HankD

 

[HankD]

Matthew 11 is a statement by Christ before the cross -- Christ refuted the charge that He was breaking the Sabbath instead of agreeing with his accusers. How about -- we JOIN Christ in doing that.

In Matt 5 Christ condemned the notion that he came to set aside the Law of God ... How about -- we JOIN Christ in doing that.

Wait you just said Matthew 11 is a statement made by Christ before the cross seemingly implying it is of no consequence Bob then you ask us to obey certain other passages in the NT also before the cross - explain please.

In Mark 7:6-13 Christ condemned the practice of using church tradition to downsize/edit/set-aside even ONE of the TEN Commandments. How about -- we JOIN Christ in doing that.

ibid above.
The "church tradition" in your quote is not mentioned in Mark, nowhere in the entire book.

Also and even at that the Ten commandments are not specified in this passage but one of the commandments among the 613 in the Torah. And even at that another of the 10 commandments is not to own images of any kind, NOT just don't worship them but not to privately own them. What's in your wallet - images of all sorts? Yes there were images in the temple of God but to privately own them was forbidden.

If you feel you need to keep the Law then go right ahead and keep ALL 613 of them, even the smallest of the 613 as Christ commands - every yod (smallest Hebrew letter) and tittle (dagesh forte IMO).

But If you fail in one you are guilty of all.

HankD

 

[Reynolds]

The TEN Commandments are included in the moral law of God written on the heart under the NEW Covenant.

Moral law of God -- that which "defines what sin is and what righteousness is" - as we see in Romans 7 and in Romans 3.

"I will write My LAW on their heart and mind" Jeremiah 31:31-33

"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

So then it is "still a sin" to take God's name in vain". Even for Christians.

"do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God" Rom 3:31

"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Revelation 14:12

Ephesians 6:2 The 5th Commandment is the "FIRST commandment with a promise" in what unit of law?

Answer -- in that still-valid unit-of-TEN.

So then even for born-again Christians -- it is a sin to take God's name in vain.

==================================
the Bible statements above are hardly even debatable given this short list of groups that affirm them.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

If you "love The Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and strength" and if you "love your neighbor as yourself", will you violate any of the 10?

 

[BobRyan]

If you "love The Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and strength" and if you "love your neighbor as yourself", will you violate any of the 10?

I think you will in fact affirm and defend them in that case.

Notice how Christ does that very thing in Mark 7:6-13:

6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

 

[Reynolds]

I think you will in fact affirm and defend them in that case.

Notice how Christ does that very thing in Mark 7:6-13:

6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

I definitely affirm them.

 

[BobRyan]

HankD said: ↑
"Sabbath" - refers to "rest" as well as the seventh day (The perfect rest which we are presently enjoying).

RSV Hebrews 4:9 So then, there remains a sabbath rest for the people of God;
We are keeping the Sabbath 24/7.
Jesus Christ IS our Sabbath.

Matthew 11
28 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

Matthew 11 is a statement by Christ before the cross -- Christ refuted the charge that He was breaking the Sabbath instead of agreeing with his accusers. How about -- we JOIN Christ in doing that.

In Matt 5 Christ condemned the notion that he came to set aside the Law of God ... How about -- we JOIN Christ in doing that.

In Mark 7:6-13 Christ condemned the practice of using church tradition to downsize/edit/set-aside even ONE of the TEN Commandments. How about -- we JOIN Christ in doing that.

Christ was spirit filled - AND was a Carpenter... but was not "making tables on the Bible Sabbath". Christ was not an "example" of rebellion against the Commandments of God.

Paul agrees with Christ in Romans 3:31

Wait you just said Matthew 11 is a statement made by Christ before the cross seemingly implying it is of no consequence Bob

Some people do argue that we should ignore the teaching of Christ as Christians... I never do that. In fact I strongly oppose that doctrine.

My point is that in Matt 11 we are "before the cross" which is before any sort of "excuses" about the Ten Commandments being deleted or any such thing. Only the most extreme Bible-deniers would argue that Jesus was preaching rebellion against God's Commandments before the cross. Thus we have a case where ALL can agree that the rest promised in Matthew 11 is not a Sabbath-denying "do secular work on Saturday" argument by Christ. He Himself - a Carpenter .. was walking in obedience.

The "church tradition" in your quote is not mentioned in Mark, nowhere in the entire book.

??

It is - the leaders of the one-true nation-church of Christ's day are being addressed in Mark 7:6-13.. as they attacked the "Commandments of God" with their own "man made tradition" and Jesus made it clear that the "Commandments of God" in that case were the "TEN Commandments"

Also and even at that the Ten commandments are not specified in this passage but one of the commandments

The SAME one we find in Ephesians 6:2 as "THE FIRST commandment WITH a promise" -- which is only true of the TEN Commandments. So both Paul and Christ are in agreement referring to them as the "Commandments of God".

Christ said in Mark 7 "The Commandment of God" and "Moses Said" and "The Word of God" were all the same and that one example of that was the 5th commandment.

And even at that another of the 10 commandments is not to own images of any kind, NOT just don't worship them but not to privately own them. What's in your wallet - images of all sorts? Yes there were images in the temple of God but to privately own them was forbidden.

You "quoted you" in your "privately own them" statement. The actual Commandment says "not to bow down to them nor SERVE them". They were not bowing down to the angel images in the temple NOR where they promising to serve those angelic beings that the images represented.

Instead of the "insert" you offer - the text points very specifically to the problem.

As we all know - it is "still a sin today" - to take God's name in vain... even for Christians.

This is irrefutable.

If you feel you need to keep the Law then go right ahead

And you have free will to choose rebellion against the Commandments of God if you wish.

Paul says "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

 

[BobRyan]

I definitely affirm them.

A great many in these groups would also choose to join you in that affirmation --

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes or No: is Exodus 20:4 a complete sentence; a complete thought and command by itself?

Moses did not write with verse divisions or numbers... or even chapter divisions.

"The THEM" of verse 5 show that 4 and 5 are the same command

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Click to expand...

 

[Alcott]

Moses did not write with verse divisions or numbers... or even chapter divisions.

Then there are not necessarily 10 commands; they can be divided or combined. You combine them; I divide them. Nevertheless, you seem to be saying it's perfectly alright to portray God or heaven, have statues of pigs, lions, men, women, the red dragon, et al-- including in a church-- as long as we don't bow to them or worship them in any way. Correct?

"The THEM" of verse 5 show that 4 and 5 are the same command

Then so must "them" in "them that hate me."

 

[HankD]

You "quoted you" in your "privately own them" statement. The actual Commandment says "not to bow down to them nor SERVE them". They were not bowing down to the angel images in the temple NOR where they promising to serve those angelic beings that the images represented.

Instead of the "insert" you offer - the text points very specifically to the problem.

As we all know - it is "still a sin today" - to take God's name in vain... even for Christians.

This is irrefutable.



And you have free will to choose rebellion against the Commandments of God if you wish.

Paul says "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

We don't need the 10 commandments Bob, we have the indwelling Spirit of God which infuses us with agape (love).

As we walk in the Spirit
we don't need to be told to love mother and father not to bow down to Krishna, not to take our Father's name in vain, not to steal, lie or lust after another's spouse...

Those things should be as repugnant to us as hog slop is to a sheep.

1 Timothy 1
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

When we walk in the Spirit we are clothed in the righteousness of Christ.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
As we walk in the Spirit of God illuminates us with the image of Christ more and more...

2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.


HankD

 

[Dr. Bob]

Growing up Jewish I was taught a LOVE and a JOY for the giving of Torah. Celebrated with a "new years eve style" party on last day of Shavuot. The Law was NOT the imposition of a horrible system on reluctant nation (like so many Christians believe) but rather the glorious communication by God to His people. Man still lived by faith like Abraham, believing the matrix of the sacrificial system brought them into a right relationship with God. Faith, not works, saved them as it has all from Adam.

But more important than the Law (which all were to obey and which all failed) was the Covenant. Exodus 19:5 "Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant . . " Before God called Israel to keep His law (not given in list form yet), He commanded them to “keep My covenant".