Ten Commandments Keep them or break them?

[BobRyan]

Do you admit that you do not honor the 4th commandment? Do not keep the 4th commandment on purpose?

Not because you choose to obey it - but sometimes fail - but that you consider it "amoral" and give it no thought at all?

( I actually thought you would jump on board to answer this one)

No. I do not keep the Sabbath because the Bible teaches that it is a commandment given specifically to the Jews and not the Gentiles.

Do you not find it "odd" Steaver's claim to "honor the Sabbath" and your claim to ignore it entirely - result in the both of you doing the same thing in real life??

Well... I guess there is ONE difference. Your being honest and admitting that you completely ignore God's 4th commandment allows you to freely quote it - where as Steaver's choice to do as you do - but then call in 'honoring' the 4th commandment does not allow him to quote it.

Having said that - God actually says the Sabbath was "MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27.

And "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall aLL MANKIND come before Me to Worship" Is 66:23

As we all know by now.

I don't think you will find any whining or complaining about these texts and these observance details in well known Sunday keeping source documents (Emphasis for DHK to note the detail so often skipped over each time I mention it) such as the "Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19 or the "Westminster Confession of Faith" Section 19 or in D.L. Moody's online sermon on the TEN Commandments - in his 4th Commandment section. Nor will you find the Seventh-day Baptists complaining about these texts - nor the Messianic Jewish groups I have personally visited, nor R.C Sproul.

No wonder D.L. Moody so directly addresses your "I down-sized Ten Commandments to Nine" idea in his sermon on the Ten commandments. No wonder you fear the mere quote of D.L. Moody's sermon so much.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Do you admit that you do not honor the 4th commandment? Do not keep the 4th commandment on purpose?

Not because you choose to obey it - but sometimes fail - but that you consider it "amoral" and give it no thought at all?

( I actually thought you would jump on board to answer this one)



Do you not find it "odd" Steaver's claim to "honor the Sabbath" and your claim to ignore it entirely - result in the both of you doing the same thing in real life??

Well... I guess there is ONE difference. Your being honest and admitting that you completely ignore God's 4th commandment allows you to freely quote it - where as Steaver's choice to do as you do - but then call in 'honoring' the 4th commandment does not allow him to quote it.

Having said that - God actually says the Sabbath was "MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27.

And "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall aLL MANKIND come before Me to Worship" Is 66:23

As we all know by now.

in Christ,

Bob

Why do you keep derailing the thread Bob? This is not another thread on the Sabbath. I have answered your questions for you, but you have not reciprocated.
Here is my post:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2058480&postcount=117

Still unanswered. I am waiting.

 

[BobRyan]

Why do you keep derailing the thread Bob? This is not another thread on the Sabbath. .

You clearly need to have a talk with yourself.

Recall that my post was on the TEN Commandments as follows --

======================================
"Here is the perseverance of the SAINTS, here are they who KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

-- DHK responds with the Bible contradicting idea that some of the Commandments are "AMORAL".
-- DHK responds that they cannot be kept no matter if the Bible says the Saints are known for keeping them or not.

As pointed out before - any Catholic can simply ignore the bible when it comes to the 2nd commandment and dream up some "any ol excuse will do" straw man. Even the Evangelicals can see this is something that has no validity - for getting around the Bible when it crosses the preference of man-made-tradition.

A point to which we get "dead silence" from those here at war against the TEN Commandments of God. (When they are not self-conflictedly arguing that NiNE of the TEN Commandments should be kept and all the fluff arguments do not apply to the nine)

But we cannot say that all evangelicals - or even all Baptists fail on that point...I don't think you will find any whining or complaining about these texts and these observance details in well known Sunday keeping source documents (Emphasis for DHK to note the detail so often skipped over each time I mention it) such as the "Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19 or the "Westminster Confession of Faith" Section 19 or in D.L. Moody's online sermon on the TEN Commandments - in his 4th Commandment section. Nor will you find the Seventh-day Baptists complaining about these texts - nor the Messianic Jewish groups I have personally visited, nor R.C Sproul.

No wonder D.L. Moody so directly addresses your "I down-sized Ten Commandments to Nine" idea in his sermon on the Ten commandments. No wonder you fear the mere quote of D.L. Moody's sermon so much.
===================================

I also point out that even you admitted that James 2 claims that to break (declare war against) ONE of the Ten Commandments it to break (declare war against) them all.

I also point out how this "war against the Commandments" idea is contrasted to KEEPING The Commandments and yet not being found perfectly sinless before one is able to honor and affirm those commandments with this example.

Essentially I am using "you" as "exhibit-A"

Do you admit that you do not honor the 4th commandment? Do not keep the 4th commandment on purpose?

Not because you choose to obey it - but sometimes fail - but that you consider it "amoral" and give it no thought at all?

( I actually thought you would jump on board to answer this one)

You then jump in about the 4th commandment issue. (Presumably because you are so determined not to address the actual points raised in my comments above about the Commandments of God)


in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

"By the law is the knowledge of sin." That is the purpose of the law; not salvation. The law cannot save.

You do not have one quote from me saying "the law can save".

Not one quote saying "Jesus gave the law so lost people could save themselves.

And we all know it.

Each time I post the scripture that speaks to the role of the Saints and the Law of God - you wish to "circle back" to the view of the LAW of God that the lost person has.


--

However my focus has been on the law from the POV of the saved saint as follows.

=================================== begin

[FONT=&quot]Rom 8[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 because [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God;[/FONT][FONT=&quot] for it [/FONT][FONT=&quot]does not subject itself to the Law of God[/FONT][FONT=&quot], for it [/FONT][FONT=&quot]is not even able to do so[/FONT][FONT=&quot],[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God[/FONT][FONT=&quot].

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]According to Romans 8 and Romans 6 - the saint can choose to obey the Word of God - or be in rebellion against it - and lose salvation.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 John 5
"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:1-3[/FONT]


Rev 14:12 "here is the perseverance of the SAINTS here are they that KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

The cotton-candy-fluff gaming of the texts above that insist that the saints be sinless before we can believe the Bible on the points listed does not even work for Baptists when they are telling Catholics that the 2nd commandment must be valid and must be obeyed.

And we all know it.

So obvious infact that these points are not lost on a number of Baptists so that they do not engage in pointless gaming or [FONT=&quot]whining or complaining about these texts and these observance details in well known Sunday keeping source documents (Emphasis for DHK to note the detail so often skipped over each time I mention it) such as the "Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19 or the "Westminster Confession of Faith" Section 19 or in D.L. Moody's online sermon on the TEN Commandments - in his 4th Commandment section. Nor will you find the Seventh-day Baptists complaining about these texts - nor the Messianic Jewish groups I have personally visited, nor R.C Sproul. [/FONT]

No wonder D.L. Moody so directly addresses your "I down-sized Ten Commandments to Nine" idea in his sermon on the Ten commandments. No wonder you fear the mere quote of D.L. Moody's sermon so much.

=========================== end quote

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

"By the law is the knowledge of sin." That is the purpose of the law; not salvation. The law cannot save.

(obligatory rant deleted here...)

This is not about Catholics. Why this red herring all the time?
.

The point you are ducking is that all of your fluff-Bible-lacking any-ol-excuse-will-do games go out the window even for Baptists when they are reminding our Catholic friends that the 2nd commandment against using images in worship needs to be taken "for real" as God's Word and not ignored for the sake of tradition.

My how much "clarity" our Baptist friends have at such a point in time.

So why all this war against the Commandments of God in your post?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Here is my post:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2058480&postcount=117

Still unanswered. I am waiting.

I have addressed it.

and your wild claims about me claiming D.L Moody as a Saturday Sabbath preacher -- was fully debunked.

Here it is again.

Your post included this false accusation (one of many you make as it turns out).

Originally Posted by DHK

You slander D.L. Moody and shouldn't quote him at all. D.L. Moody never kept the Sabbath and in your heart you know that.
1. He told the people to worship on Sunday, just like most of us do. That is not the Sabbath.
2. He explicitly said: "I do my work on Saturday," thereby nullifying any idea at all that he kept the Sabbath.

You were then shown to be in complete error in make that false accusation - as follows.

Sadly we both know your false accusation above is not true at all - it has no merrit.

We can all see that I have included D.L. Moody as a "Sunday keeping source" and then I pointed out dozens of times that you keep "pretending" not to see this "detail" in my post.

How sad for your false accusation.

Another "detail" that debunks your sad accusation - is that I repeatedly stated in my reference to Moody and others that I strongly object to their idea of applying the Sabbath to sunday in the NT claiming that it was changed at the cross. We all know that by know.

Your sad accusation has no validity in real life posts - so you just "repeat it".

And then I added this oft-repeated post so filled with details that you are anxious to dodge. Details that include evidence of your false accusation -- as follows

.I don't think you will find any whining or complaining about these texts and these observance details in well known Sunday keeping source documents (Emphasis for DHK to note the detail so often skipped over each time I mention it) such as the "Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19 or the "Westminster Confession of Faith" Section 19 or in D.L. Moody's online sermon on the TEN Commandments - in his 4th Commandment section. Nor will you find the Seventh-day Baptists complaining about these texts - nor the Messianic Jewish groups I have personally visited, nor R.C Sproul.

===================================


The saints do not claim God's Law is "burdensome" but they SHOW by their obedience to God's Commandments that they do in fact LOVE God AND Love the people of God. 1John 5:1-4.

1 John 5
"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:1-3

-- DHK picks out a commandment of God and claims it to be "wayy" to burdensome to keep. Downright impossible according to DHK


Rom 8
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


DHK and Steaver argue that they CANNOT keep the LAW of God no matter what Romans 8 says to the contrary.



"Here is the perseverance of the SAINTS, here are they who KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

-- DHK responds with the Bible contradicting idea that some of the Commandments are "AMORAL".
-- DHK responds that they cannot be kept no matter if the Bible says the Saints are known for keeping them or not.

As pointed out before - any Catholic can simply ignore the bible when it comes to the 2nd commandment and dream up some "any ol excuse will do" straw man. Even the Evangelicals can see this is something that has no validity - for getting around the Bible when it crosses the preference of man-made-tradition.

A point to which we get "dead silence" from those here at war against the TEN Commandments of God. (When they are not self-conflictedly arguing that NiNE of the TEN Commandments should be kept and all the fluff arguments do not apply to the nine)

But we cannot say that all evangelicals - or even all Baptists fail on that point...I don't think you will find any whining or complaining about these texts and these observance details in well known Sunday keeping source documents (Emphasis for DHK to note the detail so often skipped over each time I mention it) such as the "Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19 or the "Westminster Confession of Faith" Section 19 or in D.L. Moody's online sermon on the TEN Commandments - in his 4th Commandment section. Nor will you find the Seventh-day Baptists complaining about these texts - nor the Messianic Jewish groups I have personally visited, nor R.C Sproul.

No wonder D.L. Moody so directly addresses your "I down-sized Ten Commandments to Nine" idea in his sermon on the Ten commandments. No wonder you fear the mere quote of D.L. Moody's sermon so much.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

"You do not have one quote from me saying "the law can save"..........

[FONT=&quot].........."According to Romans 8 and Romans 6 - the saint can choose to obey the Word of God - or be in rebellion against it - and lose salvation".[/FONT]




in Christ,

Bob

There is your quote Bob. You just made keeping the Law a requirement for salvation.

 

[BobRyan]

I never argue that rebellion against God will not get the saved person to be lost. The law can cause them to be lost.

But I never argue that the Law causes a lost person to be saved. Obviously you had no quote of such a thing from me - so you "bent one".

Matt 18 is another place where "forgiveness revoked" is a subject of the Bible - often ignored by those clinging to man-made-tradition over the Word of God.

[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]


Matt 6

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

Your little trick of only paying a "tiny bit of attention to the details" and then snippet posting - does not work because the rest of us can see the details you are carefully omitting.

I don't know why you think that gaming the subject is so convincing for everyone. It will only work on a small group.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

I never argue that rebellion against God will not get the saved person to be lost. The law can cause them to be lost.

But I never argue that the Law causes a lost person to be saved. Obviously you had no quote of such a thing from me - so you "bent one".

Salvation through obedience to the Law is exactly what you are preaching, no bending necessary.

It's the same as one saying...... 'this road cannot save you, however, if you don't take it you cannot be saved'. This is exactly what you espouse.

.........."According to Romans 8 and Romans 6 - the saint can choose to obey the Word of God - or be in rebellion against it - and lose salvation".

Either the Law saves or it does not save. You are very confused in thinking that one starts with Grace and then is kept saved by obedience to the Law. Paul scolded those who were falling for this trick of satan (Gal5)

 

[BobRyan]

I never argue that rebellion against God will not get the saved person to be lost. The law can cause them to be lost.

But I never argue that the Law causes a lost person to be saved. Obviously you had no quote of such a thing from me - so you "bent one".

Matt 18 is another place where "forgiveness revoked" is a subject of the Bible - often ignored by those clinging to man-made-tradition over the Word of God.

[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]


Matt 6

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

Your little trick of only paying a "tiny bit of attention to the details" and then snippet posting - does not work because the rest of us can see the details you are carefully omitting.

I don't know why you think that gaming the subject is so convincing for everyone. It will only work on a small group.

in the post above we see the Bible teaching on forgiveness revoked. it is not talking so much about how the lost become saved - as how the saved become lost.

Steaver then tries to "equivocate" between the saved getting lost and the lost getting saved as if the Bible can be edited to make them the same thing.

Salvation through obedience to the Law

The fact that the Matt 18 and Matt 6 issue on forgiveness revoked does not suit your man-made-tradition on OSAS should not be used to hijack the topic on the Ten commandments themselves.

Notice that you would not take such nonsense from a Catholic wanting to break the 2nd commandment and worship images in church.

'obviously.


When we tell the Catholic to keep the 2nd commandment we are not saying to the lost person "you don't need Christ just start keeping the 2nd commandment and you are saved".

The evangelicals, Baptists etc get this point easily.

But for some odd reason a few of them want to go to war against the Ten Commandments -- in all other contexts.

That brings us back to the texts on the Commandments of God.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

My focus has been on the law from the POV of the saved saint as follows.

=================================== begin

[FONT=&quot]Rom 8[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 because [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God;[/FONT][FONT=&quot] for it [/FONT][FONT=&quot]does not subject itself to the Law of God[/FONT][FONT=&quot], for it [/FONT][FONT=&quot]is not even able to do so[/FONT][FONT=&quot],[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God[/FONT][FONT=&quot].

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]According to Romans 8 and Romans 6 - the saint can choose to obey the Word of God - or be in rebellion against it - and lose salvation.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 John 5
"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:1-3[/FONT]


Rev 14:12 "here is the perseverance of the SAINTS here are they that KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

The cotton-candy-fluff gaming of the texts above that insist that the saints be sinless before we can believe the Bible on the points listed does not even work for Baptists when they are telling Catholics that the 2nd commandment must be valid and must be obeyed.

And we all know it.

So obvious infact that these points are not lost on a number of Baptists so that they do not engage in pointless gaming or [FONT=&quot]whining or complaining about these texts and these observance details in well known Sunday keeping source documents (Emphasis for DHK to note the detail so often skipped over each time I mention it) such as the "Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19 or the "Westminster Confession of Faith" Section 19 or in D.L. Moody's online sermon on the TEN Commandments - in his 4th Commandment section. Nor will you find the Seventh-day Baptists complaining about these texts - nor the Messianic Jewish groups I have personally visited, nor R.C Sproul. [/FONT]

No wonder D.L. Moody so directly addresses your "I down-sized Ten Commandments to Nine" idea in his sermon on the Ten commandments. No wonder you fear the mere quote of D.L. Moody's sermon so much.

 

[steaver]

in the post above we see the Bible teaching on forgiveness revoked. it is not talking so much about how the lost become saved - as how the saved become lost.

Steaver then tries to "equivocate" between the saved getting lost and the lost getting saved as if the Bible can be edited to make them the same thing.

The issue is salvation, period. One cannot declare obedience to the Law cannot save and then declare one must obey the Law to be saved.

The fact that the Matt 18 and Matt 6 issue on forgiveness revoked......

It is only a fact in your mind

Notice that you would not take such nonsense from a Catholic wanting to break the 2nd commandment and worship images in church.

'obviously.


When we tell the Catholic to keep the 2nd commandment we are not saying to the lost person "you don't need Christ just start keeping the 2nd commandment and you are saved".

The evangelicals, Baptists etc get this point easily.

But for some odd reason a few of them want to go to war against the Ten Commandments -- in all other contexts.

That brings us back to the texts on the Commandments of God.

in Christ,

Bob

The issue is salvation, you can't seem to get that point. A Catholic can break the 2nd commandment all day long and if they have been born of God it will not change their justification before God. So I'm not sure why you keep bringing up the Catholic's transgressions of the Law, you and I are as guilty as they when it comes to commandment breaking. Again, if the commandment cannot give you salvation then it certainly cannot keep your salvation.

Your argument has failed and I think you actually know this but for some reason feel compelled to kick against the pricks. The only hope left for you on this issue lies somewhere between here and on the road to Damascus.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
I never argue that rebellion against God will not get the saved person to be lost. The law can cause them to be lost.

But I never argue that the Law causes a lost person to be saved. Obviously you had no quote of such a thing from me - so you "bent one".

Matt 18 is another place where "forgiveness revoked" is a subject of the Bible - often ignored by those clinging to man-made-tradition over the Word of God.

[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]


Matt 6

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

Your little trick of only paying a "tiny bit of attention to the details" and then snippet posting - does not work because the rest of us can see the details you are carefully omitting.

I don't know why you think that gaming the subject is so convincing for everyone. It will only work on a small group.



in the post above we see the Bible teaching on forgiveness revoked. it is not talking so much about how the lost become saved - as how the saved become lost.

The issue is salvation, period. One cannot declare obedience to the Law cannot save and then declare one must obey the Law

your little trick of only paying a "tiny bit of attention to the details" and then snippet posting - does not work

The issue is salvation, you can't seem to get that point. A Catholic can break the 2nd commandment all day long and if they have been born of God it will not change their justification before God.

So then you are not one of those evangelicals that think worshipping images matters ....

Ok well to each his own.

I happen to think the 2nd commandment matters - but here is probably another place where you and I differ.

Are you willing to pay enough attention to actual Bible details to answer a simple question?

How do you get OSAS to survive this "detail"--?

[FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

If you have no interest in OSAS and Matt 18 - what about the Ten Commandments and the way that the Bible talks about them. So then the "Actual Bible" not just your version of "gaming".

My focus has been on the law from the POV of the saved saint as follows.

=================================== begin

[FONT=&quot]Rom 8[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 because [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God;[/FONT][FONT=&quot] for it [/FONT][FONT=&quot]does not subject itself to the Law of God[/FONT][FONT=&quot], for it [/FONT][FONT=&quot]is not even able to do so[/FONT][FONT=&quot],[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God[/FONT][FONT=&quot].

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]According to Romans 8 and Romans 6 - the saint can choose to obey the Word of God - or be in rebellion against it - and lose salvation.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 John 5
"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:1-3[/FONT]


Rev 14:12 "here is the perseverance of the SAINTS here are they that KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

The cotton-candy-fluff gaming of the texts above that insist that the saints be sinless before we can believe the Bible on the points listed does not even work for Baptists when they are telling Catholics that the 2nd commandment must be valid and must be obeyed.

And we all know it.

So obvious infact that these points are not lost on a number of Baptists so that they do not engage in pointless gaming or [FONT=&quot]whining or complaining about these texts and these observance details in well known Sunday keeping source documents (Emphasis for DHK to note the detail so often skipped over each time I mention it) such as the "Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19 or the "Westminster Confession of Faith" Section 19 or in D.L. Moody's online sermon on the TEN Commandments - in his 4th Commandment section. Nor will you find the Seventh-day Baptists complaining about these texts - nor the Messianic Jewish groups I have personally visited, nor R.C Sproul. [/FONT]

No wonder D.L. Moody so directly addresses your "I down-sized Ten Commandments to Nine" idea in his sermon on the Ten commandments. No wonder you fear the mere quote of D.L. Moody's sermon so much.

 

[DHK]

You clearly need to have a talk with yourself.

No I don't. You need to read carefully through this post, verify its accuracy, or admit that you justly deserve an infraction for misrepresenting what others say.
Debate does not consist of pulling quotes out of context--a mix of hodge-podge statements, and then stating that these were one's answers. That is deceit; lies; dishonesty. It can't, won't be tolerated.

Recall that my post was on the TEN Commandments as follows --

======================================
"Here is the perseverance of the SAINTS, here are they who KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

-- DHK responds with the Bible contradicting idea that some of the Commandments are "AMORAL".

Was that my exact response to your posting of the Scripture Rev.14:12? Is that what I responded with at that time, to that particular post?
If not you are being dishonest in a representation of the facts. The honest way to do this is give the URL where I said that to show me and others the context in which it was given. It was not a private conversation.

-- DHK responds that they cannot be kept no matter if the Bible says the Saints are known for keeping them or not.

Again you have put two opposing things together.
Even the Bible teaches that the law cannot be kept.
You have joined that Biblical teaching with a verse taken out of context in Revelation which speaks of a different dispensation or time period--that of the Tribulation Period. The entire teaching of that period of time is not in the period of grace but in judgment. Grace ended sometime before.

As pointed out before - any Catholic can simply ignore the bible when it comes to the 2nd commandment and dream up some "any ol excuse will do" straw man. Even the Evangelicals can see this is something that has no validity - for getting around the Bible when it crosses the preference of man-made-tradition.

This is becoming your own "man-made tradition" condemned by Christ.
It is your regular copy and paste red herring reference to the Catholic Church which is not the topic of this thread. This along with the Sabbath are just another attempt to derail the thread and deflect attention off of your own accountability to the law.

A point to which we get "dead silence" from those here at war against the TEN Commandments of God. (When they are not self-conflictedly arguing that NiNE of the TEN Commandments should be kept and all the fluff arguments do not apply to the nine)

Ibid.

But we cannot say that all evangelicals - or even all Baptists fail on that point...I don't think you will find any whining or complaining about these texts and these observance details in well known Sunday keeping source documents (Emphasis for DHK to note the detail so often skipped over each time I mention it) such as the "Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19 or the "Westminster Confession of Faith" Section 19 or in D.L. Moody's online sermon on the TEN Commandments - in his 4th Commandment section. Nor will you find the Seventh-day Baptists complaining about these texts - nor the Messianic Jewish groups I have personally visited, nor R.C Sproul.

No wonder D.L. Moody so directly addresses your "I down-sized Ten Commandments to Nine" idea in his sermon on the Ten commandments. No wonder you fear the mere quote of D.L. Moody's sermon so much.

Ibid. again.

I also point out that even you admitted that James 2 claims that to break (declare war against) ONE of the Ten Commandments it to break (declare war against) them all.

Is this an admission that you break the law?

I also point out how this "war against the Commandments" idea is contrasted to KEEPING The Commandments and yet not being found perfectly sinless before one is able to honor and affirm those commandments with this example.

Do you lie, commit murder, adultery, covet, commit idolatry, etc.
Before you deny it, think carefully what the Bible says about these commands.

Essentially I am using "you" as "exhibit-A"

But you won't give account for yourself will you.
At least I admit that I am a sinner
Jesus came to die for sinners. It seems as if you still remain in your self-righteousness.

You then jump in about the 4th commandment issue. (Presumably because you are so determined not to address the actual points raised in my comments above about the Commandments of God)

Most of your post has been addressed ad infinitum.
In fact most of it is a copy and paste job that can be found in a multitude of posts. It has already been answered. Much it is slander.

 

[BobRyan]

You clearly need to have a talk with yourself.

Recall that my post was on the TEN Commandments as follows --

======================================
"Here is the perseverance of the SAINTS, here are they who KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

1 John 5:1-4 makes the same point.

1 John 2:3-6 makes the same point[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

John 14:15 makes the same point
[FONT=&quot]
Exodus 20:6 makes the same point.

1 Cor 7:19 makes the same point

1 John 5
"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:1-3[/FONT]


1John 2
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.


John 14:15
"If you love Me KEEP My Commandments"


Ex 20:6
"to them that LOVE Me and KEEP My Commandments"


1Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"


As pointed out before - any Catholic can simply ignore the bible when it comes to the 2nd commandment and dream up some "any ol excuse will do" straw man. Even the Evangelicals can see this is something that has no validity - for getting around the Bible when it crosses the preference of man-made-tradition.

A point to which we get "dead silence" from those here at war against the TEN Commandments of God. (When they are not self-conflictedly arguing that NiNE of the TEN Commandments should be kept and all the fluff arguments do not apply to the nine)

But we cannot say that all evangelicals - or even all Baptists fail on that point...I don't think you will find any whining or complaining about these texts and these observance details in well known Sunday keeping source documents (Emphasis for DHK to note the detail so often skipped over each time I mention it) such as the "Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19 or the "Westminster Confession of Faith" Section 19 or in D.L. Moody's online sermon on the TEN Commandments - in his 4th Commandment section. Nor will you find the Seventh-day Baptists complaining about these texts - nor the Messianic Jewish groups I have personally visited, nor R.C Sproul.

No wonder D.L. Moody so directly addresses your "I down-sized Ten Commandments to Nine" idea in his sermon on the Ten commandments. No wonder you fear the mere quote of D.L. Moody's sermon so much.
===================================

I also point out that even you admitted that James 2 claims that to break (declare war against) ONE of the Ten Commandments it to break (declare war against) them all.

Again you have put two opposing things together.
Even the Bible teaches that the law cannot be kept.

Romans 8:6-8 says that the lost are indeed in the position of "not being able" to obey the Law of God.


[FONT=&quot]Rom 8[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 because [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God;[/FONT][FONT=&quot] for it [/FONT][FONT=&quot]does not subject itself to the Law of God[/FONT][FONT=&quot], for it [/FONT][FONT=&quot]is not even able to do so[/FONT][FONT=&quot],[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God[/FONT][FONT=&quot].

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]According to Romans 8 and Romans 6 - the saint can choose to obey the Word of God - or be in rebellion against it - and lose salvation.[/FONT]

I have never doubted that problem for the lost. Paul affirms it himself.

You have joined that Biblical teaching with a verse taken out of context in Revelation which speaks of a different dispensation or time period--that of the Tribulation Period. The entire teaching of that period of time is not in the period of grace but in judgment.

Now you are just "making stuff up". That sort of storytelling is not a good substitute for sola scriptura testing. Which is why I refer to the texts above.

Grace ended sometime before.

Nonsense.

Rev 14:12 fits perfectly with 1John 2:4-6 and 1John 5:1-4 and John 14:15 and is the same author on the same subject.

And we both know it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

You clearly need to have a talk with yourself.

Recall that my post was on the TEN Commandments as follows --

The Scripture you use do not all reflect the Ten Commandments. You don't bother with context. You don't care about the true meaning of the Bible. It is an attitude of: "Why not just throw the Bible away and look at my verses without any context at all." You really don't care what the Bible says as long as you have your proof texts, and that is the most pitiful of all positions to stand in.

"Here is the perseverance of the SAINTS, here are they who KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

Nothing here about the "Ten Commandments." You can't prove it.
Secondly, it is during a period known as The Great Tribulation." I won't be there. The entire church won't be there. No believer will be there. The church will be raptured before this event will take place, which makes this point of yours completely moot.

1 John 5:1-4 makes the same point.

1 John 2:3-6 makes the same point

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

John 14:15 makes the same point
[FONT=&quot]
Exodus 20:6 makes the same point.

1 Cor 7:19 makes the same point[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
Why? Because you are the SDA Pope!!
Sorry, that won't do. All of us reject your interpretation of these verses, and you know it. To post the references is futile.

1 John 5:1-3

[/FONT]

1John 2:3:6

John 14:15
"If you love Me KEEP My Commandments"

Ex 20:6
"to them that LOVE Me and KEEP My Commandments"

1Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

Good Scripture. I like them also, and believe them. They are obviously in the Bible. Too bad you don't know their actual meaning because you quote them with no context, as per usual.

As pointed out before - any Catholic can simply ignore the bible when it comes to the 2nd commandment and dream up some "any ol excuse will do" straw man. Even the Evangelicals can see this is something that has no validity - for getting around the Bible when it crosses the preference of man-made-tradition.

And, as just proven, you act just like the Catholics you just spoke of.
You ignore the Bible. My grandchildren can do just what you did--copy and paste; copy and paste; copy and paste. How difficult a task do you think that is? There are plenty of Catholics that do the same thing with just as great accuracy as you do. What makes you any better than they? You ignore scripture as much as they do, if not more.
"Any ol excuse will do" straw man is yours to apply to your own self.

A point to which we get "dead silence" from those here at war against the TEN Commandments of God. (When they are not self-conflictedly arguing that NiNE of the TEN Commandments should be kept and all the fluff arguments do not apply to the nine)

It has been proven beyond all shadow of a doubt that you don't keep the Sabbath. The Jews would absolutely reject your form of keeping the Sabbath. The Jews reject any use of the NT in their observance of the Sabbath. It is anathema in their observance of the Sabbath for they have rejected the Messiah. Do you celebrate the Sabbath in this way? No.
The Sabbath is given to the nation of Israel (Exodus 31.) This is a biblical detail which you ignore. This is the "dead silence" we get from you.

But we cannot say that all evangelicals - or even all Baptists fail on that point...I don't think you will find any whining or complaining about these texts and these observance details in well known Sunday keeping source documents (Emphasis for DHK to note the detail so often skipped over each time I mention it) such as the "Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19 or the "Westminster Confession of Faith" Section 19 or in D.L. Moody's online sermon on the TEN Commandments - in his 4th Commandment section. Nor will you find the Seventh-day Baptists complaining about these texts - nor the Messianic Jewish groups I have personally visited, nor R.C Sproul.

This is the slander which you really ought to be getting infractions for, and have been repeatedly told not to post such material.
1. Those who authored the Baptist confession do not keep the Sabbath.
2. The Westminster Confession does not teach one to keep the Sabbath.
3. Moody does not keep the Sabbath; in fact works on the Sabbath.
4. Messianic groups, according to Jews in Israel, desecrate the Sabbath, and are presently being kicked out of Israel.
--This is all slander on your part. Next time post it, and you will receive an infraction. I tire of it.

No wonder D.L. Moody so directly addresses your "I down-sized Ten Commandments to Nine" idea in his sermon on the Ten commandments. No wonder you fear the mere quote of D.L. Moody's sermon so much.

1. Moody worked on the Sabbath; did not keep it.
2. Moody made a direct disclaimer in his sermon. He specifically said that all of his beliefs had no similarity to any of the beliefs of the SDA. To say that he did is so libelous and slanderous that you need to be taken to task for it. You are attacking a good man's name.

I also point out that even you admitted that James 2 claims that to break (declare war against) ONE of the Ten Commandments it to break (declare war against) them all.

Is this an admission that you are perfect and have never broken one of God's law, not even once in your life. Have you ever lied Bob?

Romans 8:6-8 says that the lost are indeed in the position of "not being able" to obey the Law of God.

The same applies to you. You are not in a position to keep all of God's law either. You just dodge the truth of the statement made by switching to another Scripture. No man can keep all of God's law; that includes you.

[FONT=&quot]Rom 8:5-8[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]...[/FONT][FONT=&quot]those who are in the flesh cannot please God[/FONT][FONT=&quot].

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]According to Romans 8 and Romans 6 - the saint can choose to obey the Word of God - or be in rebellion against it - and lose salvation.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
Have you lost your salvation Bob?
[/FONT]

I have never doubted that problem for the lost. Paul affirms it himself.

Are there times in your life when you don't please God, Bob?

Now you are just "making stuff up". That sort of storytelling is not a good substitute for sola scriptura testing. Which is why I refer to the texts above.

I don't make things up. Any serious student of the Bible will realize that the Great Tribulation, as described in the Book of Revelation begins in chapter six and ends in chapter 19. The verse that you take out of context is in chapter 14, right in the middle of that period. That is not making things up; that is you ignoring context, as per usual.

Nonsense.

It is not nonsense to say that grace precedes judgment.
Now is the day of grace, a day when one has the opportunity to receive Christ as Saviour. When Christ comes for his own, that day will cease. God's wrath will be poured out against all the ungodly of the world. There will be no chance for those ungodly to trust Christ. It will be a day of judgement, not grace. That is not nonsense.

Rev 14:12 fits perfectly with 1John 2:4-6 and 1John 5:1-4 and John 14:15 and is the same author on the same subject.

No it does not. You have not studied your Bible. You simply take Scripture out of context and throw the rest of your Bible away. You have your pet verses. You don't really care what the Bible really says.

 

[Yeshua1]

When we talk to our Catholic friends about the 2nd commandment and not having images to use for praying, or in worship - even though the images merely "represent" those beings in heaven to which they pray -- the "answer" could come back something like we find among certain Evangelicals.

"Well the Commandments are impossible to keep - at best you can keep this or that one in spirit - but not according to what the letter of it actually says".

Jesus did not accept that sort of answer in Mark 7 when it comes to the Ten Commandments (He calls them the "Word of God") in Mark 7:13.

Jesus used the 5th commandment "Honor your Father and mother" to illustrated the point of not allowing religious leaders to come up with goofy ideas for running over the Ten Commandments.

Paul says "What matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" in 1Cor 7:19

Jesus said 'IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15 - even before the cross.

John said that the saints are those who "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

The Baptist Confession of Faith, and the Westminster Confession of Faith both argue for keeping the Commandments (the TEN Commandments) rather than breaking them.

So also do C.H. Spurgeon, R.C Sproul and D.L. Moody support the idea of KEEPING the Ten Commandments rather than breaking them.

James quotes from the TEN Commandments in James 2 and calls them the "Law of Liberty" - again urging that the saints keep them rather than tossing them under a bus.

So then what about unpopular commandments? Like commandment number 2 mentioned above - or Commandment 4 that has the "Impossible thread" dedicated to it.?

Does this idea of honoring the Moral Law of God - fall apart when it gets to unpopular parts of His Law?

Or as some have suggested - do you "honor" the unpopular commands by ignoring them?

in Christ,

Bob

Christians keep the Commandments due to the having now new natures that what to please the Lord, and the Spirit in us wants us to obey God also!

obedience as a result of being saved already, a fruit/by profuct, NOT to get saved!

You error is that you insist a sinner MUST do that to get/kept saved, bible teaches that we obey due to already been saved!

 

[BobRyan]

Recall that my post was on the TEN Commandments as follows --

======================================
"Here is the perseverance of the SAINTS, here are they who KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

1 John 5:1-4 makes the same point.

1 John 2:3-6 makes the same point[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

John 14:15 makes the same point
[FONT=&quot]
Exodus 20:6 makes the same point.

1 Cor 7:19 makes the same point

1 John 5
"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:1-3[/FONT]


1John 2
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.


John 14:15
"If you love Me KEEP My Commandments"


Ex 20:6
"to them that LOVE Me and KEEP My Commandments"


1Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"


As pointed out before - any Catholic can simply ignore the bible when it comes to the 2nd commandment and dream up some "any ol excuse will do" straw man. Even the Evangelicals can see this is something that has no validity - for getting around the Bible when it crosses the preference of man-made-tradition.

A point to which we get "dead silence" from those here at war against the TEN Commandments of God. (When they are not self-conflictedly arguing that NiNE of the TEN Commandments should be kept and all the fluff arguments do not apply to the nine)

But we cannot say that all evangelicals - or even all Baptists fail on that point...I don't think you will find any whining or complaining about these texts and these observance details in well known Sunday keeping source documents (Emphasis for DHK to note the detail so often skipped over each time I mention it) such as the "Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19 or the "Westminster Confession of Faith" Section 19 or in D.L. Moody's online sermon on the TEN Commandments - in his 4th Commandment section. Nor will you find the Seventh-day Baptists complaining about these texts - nor the Messianic Jewish groups I have personally visited, nor R.C Sproul.

No wonder D.L. Moody so directly addresses your "I down-sized Ten Commandments to Nine" idea in his sermon on the Ten commandments. No wonder you fear the mere quote of D.L. Moody's sermon so much.
===================================

I also point out that even you admitted that James 2 claims that to break (declare war against) ONE of the Ten Commandments it to break (declare war against) them all.

The Scripture you use do not all reflect the Ten Commandments.

The argument that "The Commandments of God do not include the Ten Commandments" is not accepted by D.L. Moody or the Baptist Confession of Faith. As we all know - God's Word does not accept that statement DHK.

[FONT=&quot]10 Commandments are[/FONT][FONT=&quot] –[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Commandments of God” Neh 10:29[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Law of God” Neh 10:29[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Word of God” Mark 7:13[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Commandment of God” Mark 7:6-13[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]NT “Scripture” James 2:8[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]NT “Law” – James 2:9-11[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]NT Commandments[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Eph 6:2, Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]in Christ,[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Bob
[/FONT]

 

[BobRyan]

Christians keep the Commandments due to the having now new natures that what to please the Lord, and the Spirit in us wants us to obey God also!

obedience as a result of being saved already, !

The argument that the saved are the ones that keep the Commandments of God "in real life" is what we affirm.


[FONT=&quot]Rom 8[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 because [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God;[/FONT][FONT=&quot] for it [/FONT][FONT=&quot]does not subject itself to the Law of God[/FONT][FONT=&quot], for it [/FONT][FONT=&quot]is not even able to do so[/FONT][FONT=&quot],[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.[/FONT]