Ten Commandments, So What??

[Pastor_Bob]

If one notices the recent arguments being given against God's Ten Commandments they are of the form "We don't want to keep them all because keeping them might mean we ALSO have to honor and obey the rest of scripture as well - and we all know we don't want to have to do THAT".

Brother Bob, I believe that we can keep nine of the ten commandments exactly as they did in Moses' day. It is possible for you to keep the 4th commandment exactly as they did or do you have to modify it to fit modern times?

I am not trying to be disrespectful; this is a relevant point in my opinion.

 

[BobRyan]

I believe you can keep it exactly as Adam did - except that you don't see God face to face. However the commandment does not tell us "to see God face to face".

In Exodus 20 - we are told to rest on that day -- we can still do that.

In Lev 23 we are told that it is a day of "Holy Convocation" -- we can do that.

in Isaiah 66 we are told "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" - we can come before God to worship.

There are other commands that require animal sacrifice to obey - and Heb 10 tells us that animal sacrifices have ended -- so they end.

Some commands are in the form of civil laws within a theocracy - we don't have one.

As for your question - I never take anything you say as a show of disrespect to anyone. Though we do not agree on every single point - I always find your posts to be thoughtful and direct to the point.

i highly value your work here -- so don't hold back -- I have no problem with differing points of view.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

As for your question - I never take anything you say
as a show of disrespect to anyone. Though we do not agree
on every single point - I always find your posts to be thoughtful
and direct to the point.

i highly value your work here -- so don't hold
back -- I have no problem with differing points of view.

Amen, Brother BobRyan - Preach it! :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

Thanks Ed -

You are another poster on here that I love to discuss points with because you stay focused on the point and you don't mind if we do not agree on everything.

Having said that - I think there are a number of points where we do agree -- I just tend to seek out the points of difference (it is my nature I guess).

God's blessings to you.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

D.L. Moody's work on the Sabbath commandment and the Ten Commandments is a good example of a position in doctrine and principle that I agree with - except that I would argue that you can not edit the commandments in any way as they were spoken directly by God.

i Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Since you are being careful to avoid both the words of Christ in Matt 5 AND the scenario with Paul in Acts 21 --- there they are "Again".

Hey, maybe I am a prophet!

God Bless! :wavey:

 

[steaver]

Here is another prophecy........(it has nothing to do with this thread)...............

Everyone here who believes they could possibly lose their salvation will NOT!

I guess we will have to wait and see :thumbs:

Here is s shorter term prophecy........everyone here who believes they could possibly lose their salvation will still be found saved Jan 1 2008. Let's wait and see!

God Bless! :wavey:

 

[BobRyan]

And as Pastor Bob notes - this is true of the 9 as well. I am just pointing out that it works for all ten.

(Responding to Pastor Bob's question about the 4th commandment)


I believe you can keep it exactly as Adam did - except that you don't see God face to face. However the commandment does not tell us "to see God face to face".

In Exodus 20 - we are told to rest on that day -- we can still do that.

In Lev 23 we are told that it is a day of "Holy Convocation" -- we can do that.

in Isaiah 66 we are told "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" - we can come before God to worship.

There are other commands that require animal sacrifice to obey - and Heb 10 tells us that animal sacrifices have ended -- so they end.

Some commands are in the form of civil laws within a theocracy - we don't have one.

As for your question - I never take anything you say as a show of disrespect to anyone. Though we do not agree on every single point - I always find your posts to be thoughtful and direct to the point.

i highly value your work here -- so don't hold back -- I have no problem with differing points of view.

In any case it is instructive that practically the entire voting group claims the commandments of God are still binding even on Christians.

Pretty surprising actually -

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

So here we have the Words of Christ and Words (and actions) of Paul on what is valid in the Word of God (still) -

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1134205&postcount=74

And we also have the list here voting 26 times that the Ten Commandments as given in the Word of God are still valid - still binding even in a case where some reduce them to nine.

Only 4 or 5 are floundering on the shoals of "they are just good ideas nowadays" or "they are abolished".

All good news if you ask me.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

D28Guy makes some interesting and valid points on the Sunday thread started by GE -

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1135183&postcount=170

Mike states that there is really nothing in scripture supporting Sunday as having any meaning in terms of the 4th commandment. He states that Christians simply accept on the basis of tradition - not in response to any of the Ten Commandments.

D28guy -

Most christian fellowships who gather regularly on Sunday do not think of it as the Sabbath.

We are christians, not Jews. The "Sabbath" has no relavence to christians at all. We have no obligation to gather on Saturday, just like we have no obligation to gather on Sunday. There is no specified day to gather for christians

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

It has been brought to my attention that the other poll on the Ten Commandments has the option "NONE" as the leading option voted for (7 voted in favor of "none" in that other poll).

I think the 17 votes here in favor of God's Ten commandments unchanged and written on the tablet of the human heart (See 2Cor 3 and Heb 8) his finding resonance with the group.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I would also agrue that if the ten commandments are still valid - then they still "define sin" so that all the world is declared to be 'sinners' according to Romans 3 and Gal 3 -- and all need to accept salvation or be doomed to the 2nd death.

 

[DHK]

I would also agrue that if the ten commandments are still valid - then they still "define sin" so that all the world is declared to be 'sinners' according to Romans 3 and Gal 3 -- and all need to accept salvation or be doomed to the 2nd death.

Whatever people are thinking when they choose that option--that ALL of the Ten commandments are written on the hearts of mankind and are binding--including the Sabbath, is easily disproved. Conduct your own scientific experiment if you will. Take a random survey by various methods. Do it by phone. Ask people if they keep the Sabbath (Saturday) holy, or as a day of rest, or as a day of worship unto God as God meant it to be. Ask about murder, stealing, adultery, etc. Are they wrong? I can guarantee you that most people will not believe that keeping the Sabbath holy unto the Lord is wrong. Violating the laws of the Sabbath is not sin. Violating the other nine commandments is definitely sin, for they are the commandments that are written on mans' hearts.
Muslims (more than 20% of the world's population) believe that Friday is the holy day of worship.
Catholics and Protestants believe that Sunday is God's day of worship. That is about 30% of the world's population.
The Chinese population--another billion--do not consdier the Sabbath holy.
The Indian subcontinent--another billion--do not consider the Sabbath holy.
So who does? Maybe somewhere between 1 and 5 percent of the world's population. How can you say that it is a command written on the heart of every man and is binding on every man. You don't make sense. Any scientific survey would prove you wrong. Common sense already proved you wrong.

 

[Eliyahu]

We have better commandments than 10 commandments as the Law of the Holy Spirit includes more details of the Law together with the Power to keep the Law, but it doesn't mean that we behave less then the ten commandments but we do more than that.

Jesus Christ has become my Eternal Sabbath and therefore Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Saturday, Everyday is my Sabbath and I rest in Jesus Christ eternally. I am sure Sabbath was a part of the Ceremonial Law symbolizing Yeshuah Ha-Masiach ( Jesus Christ)

Rev warns against, Idolatry, Thieves, Murderer, Adulterers cannot go to the Heaven, but we find nowhere that the Sabbath keepers only can go to the Heaven.

 

[BobRyan]

We have better commandments than 10 commandments

That would have worked better as quote from scripture. Or at least having a text that says it - after you say that we have "better commandments than God's Ten Commandments" to show that your statement is correct.

as the Law of the Holy Spirit includes more details of the Law together with the Power to keep the Law, but it doesn't mean that we behave less then the ten commandments but we do more than that.

OK so the Holy Spirit is the author of the Ten Commandments and as you say with the Spirit of Christ in us - we follow in obedience to His Word.

Jesus Christ has become my Eternal Sabbath and therefore Sunday, Monday, Tuesday,... is my Sabbath

Sounds good - what about a quote from scripture?

BTW - Gen 2:1-3 is where the Sabbath day is sanctified - set apart - made Holy by God.

There is no animal sacrifice "ceremony" connected to the Sabbath of Creation week - see Exodus 20:8-11.

but we find nowhere that the Sabbath keepers only can go to the Heaven.

I am not arguing that Sabbath keepers are the only ones that go to heaven.

I also do not argue that when a Catholic prays to an image - they are excluded from heaven.

But I day say of "ALL MANKIND" after the 2nd coming "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship" Isaiah 66. Not sure if that qualifies for the "all people who abcdef will be in heaven" or not.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Whatever people are thinking when they choose that option--that ALL of the Ten commandments are written on the hearts of mankind and are binding--including the Sabbath, is easily disproved. Conduct your own scientific experiment if you will.

The born again Catholic who prays to images has the law of God written in the heart if they have truly entered into the New Covenant.

I would not use that fact to try to argue against God's Ten Commandments or to argue that the commandment against graven images must not be "real" or "serious" or "significant" or "binding" etc.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

The born again Catholic who prays to images has the law of God written in the heart if they have truly entered into the New Covenant.

I would not use that fact to try to argue against God's Ten Commandments or to argue that the commandment against graven images must not be "real" or "serious" or "significant" or "binding" etc.

in Christ,

Bob

I was saved out of Catholicism, and very quickly came to realize that praying to images was wrong. But never have I been convicted about keeping the Sabbath. Why would the Holy Spirit never convict me about keeping the Sabbath if my heart is completely open before him?
Obviously it is not a law written on the hearts of men.
If you ask a Catholic if praying to images is wrong, he will answer yes.

 

[BobRyan]

If you ask a Protestant if the Catholic use of images in worship is wrong they will say "yes".

If you ask a Catholic that same question they say "no".

Hopefully all can agree there.

When a Catholic becomes a Protestant and gives up worship practices that include the use of images - they usally "see" that it was wrong.

When a Christian becomes a Seventh-day Baptist or joins some other 4th commandment keeping group - they generally say that rebellion against the 4th commandment is wrong.

I am sure that most people would agree with that statement as well.

What is even more amazing - given the poll here is that even those who like D.L Moody would consider rest on Saturday to be swappable for rest on Sunday - they still view obedience to the 4th commandment as " a good thing".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

What is even more amazing - given the poll here is that even those who like D.L Moody would consider rest on Saturday to be swappable for rest on Sunday - they still view obedience to the 4th commandment as " a good thing".

in Christ,

Bob

I am not convinced that Moody worshiped on Saturday as being the Sabbath, but rather in that day and age the Sunday was commonly referred to as the Sabbath. For example if you read the writings of James Calvert, missionary to Fiji, you find that he uses the words Sabbath and Sunday interchangeably. I can provide you some quotes if you so desire.

 

[BobRyan]

Admittedly many Christians in that age held fast to acceptance of the 4th commandment -- but then "edited it" to apply it to week-day-one services rather than the 7th-day of creation week as Exodus 20:8-11 specifies.

However in D.L. Moody's case he seemed to admit to the Saturday fact of the 4th commandment as being unchanged and in force from Gen 2 onward for all mankind.

Yet as you say -- he argues for a week-day-one version that he must surely have known was not what was being practiced in Exodus 20.

But in either case - he is not make your argument for "no 4th commandment" to obey.

in Christ,

Bob