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Ten Commandments, So What??
- Thread starter BobRyan
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Posted by Bob Ryan
Point of correction - no text says "the Law of God is nailed to the Cross" no not even Col 2:14.
What we find in Col 2 is that "our certificate of debt" is paid at the cross. When someone pays the debt that that law demands -- that is the definition of "law that is UPHELD" not law being abolished.
Point of clarification
You are correct that no text says the "Law of God is nailed to the cross". Col 2:14 reads: "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;".
Paul then goes on to explain the effect of this by saying:
"16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."
Thanks for the opportunity to make it even more clear.
Point of correction - no text says "the Law of God is nailed to the Cross" no not even Col 2:14.
What we find in Col 2 is that "our certificate of debt" is paid at the cross. When someone pays the debt that that law demands -- that is the definition of "law that is UPHELD" not law being abolished.
Point of clarification
You are correct that no text says the "Law of God is nailed to the cross". Col 2:14 reads: "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;".
Paul then goes on to explain the effect of this by saying:
"16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."
Thanks for the opportunity to make it even more clear.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Matt 7 says "Judge not that you be not judged" this is the Gopsel pre-cross and as we see in Col 2 it is the same Gospel post-cross.
Judging others was never the basis for obeying the commandments of God.
As you note the Col 2 article nailed to the cross "our certificate of debt" (NASB) is comprised of specific decrees against each one of us stating what we owe for violating the law of God. The second death - payment for our sins.
That payment is made at the cross - and so the Law is upheld.
To ignore the payment demanded by the Law is to abolish the law and declare that the penalty it demands can be swept away - ignored. So the payment was made - and oh at what cost!!
in Christ,
Bob
Judging others was never the basis for obeying the commandments of God.
As you note the Col 2 article nailed to the cross "our certificate of debt" (NASB) is comprised of specific decrees against each one of us stating what we owe for violating the law of God. The second death - payment for our sins.
That payment is made at the cross - and so the Law is upheld.
To ignore the payment demanded by the Law is to abolish the law and declare that the penalty it demands can be swept away - ignored. So the payment was made - and oh at what cost!!
in Christ,
Bob
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
1. It is hard to write a good poll.
My statement includes this poll (chide, chide).
There is not the choice I whould have liked:
The 10 Commandments are
reduced to 7 that are still binding
FOR GENTILES.
2. The 10 Commandments are
for Jewish/Israeli.
The 7 commandments (short list)
of Noah is for gentiles.
(missing includes the Sabbath Day
observances).
Here is an outline of the Seven Noahide Laws
according to Wikipedia article on "Seven
Laws of Noah" found here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah
# 3 Subdividing the Seven Laws
* 3.1 Prohibition against idolatry
* 3.2 Prohibition against blasphemy
* 3.3 Prohibition against murder
* 3.4 Prohibition against theft
* 3.5 Prohibition against sexual immorality
* 3.6 Prohibition against eating the limb of a living animal
* 3.7 Establish courts of justice
My statement includes this poll (chide, chide).
There is not the choice I whould have liked:
The 10 Commandments are
reduced to 7 that are still binding
FOR GENTILES.
2. The 10 Commandments are
for Jewish/Israeli.
The 7 commandments (short list)
of Noah is for gentiles.
(missing includes the Sabbath Day
observances).
Here is an outline of the Seven Noahide Laws
according to Wikipedia article on "Seven
Laws of Noah" found here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah
# 3 Subdividing the Seven Laws
* 3.1 Prohibition against idolatry
* 3.2 Prohibition against blasphemy
* 3.3 Prohibition against murder
* 3.4 Prohibition against theft
* 3.5 Prohibition against sexual immorality
* 3.6 Prohibition against eating the limb of a living animal
* 3.7 Establish courts of justice
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I have studied both sides of the issue so thoroughly I could debate either one, and have on this Board more than a few times.
Yet I am not fully convinced either way now. The Bible seems riddled with condradictions. Don't keep the commandments, do keep the commandments, keep them in spirit, how to keep the 4th commandment in spirit. Impossible.
When the Bible refers to "the commandments", does that mean the 10 commandments or just a generalization of all of the commandments we are to obey.
I am so confused!!
:tear: I give up
Yet I am not fully convinced either way now. The Bible seems riddled with condradictions. Don't keep the commandments, do keep the commandments, keep them in spirit, how to keep the 4th commandment in spirit. Impossible.
When the Bible refers to "the commandments", does that mean the 10 commandments or just a generalization of all of the commandments we are to obey.
I am so confused!!
:tear: I give up
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
When in doubt -- "ask the Bible".
Ask the Bible for the term "Seven commandments".
Count the number of times the bible mention that -
Ask the Bible about "Nine Commandments" to see how often that get's mentioned.
Ask the Bible about "Ten Commandments" to see how many times that term is used.
Then after all of that -- "Go with what the Bible says - not with what is popular in your neighborhood".
in Christ,
Bob
Ask the Bible for the term "Seven commandments".
Count the number of times the bible mention that -
Ask the Bible about "Nine Commandments" to see how often that get's mentioned.
Ask the Bible about "Ten Commandments" to see how many times that term is used.
Then after all of that -- "Go with what the Bible says - not with what is popular in your neighborhood".
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The pre-Cross teaching on the Commandments –
Notice that when speaking to a non-Christian – non-follower, the reference “the commandments” is still fully understood.
Matt 19:17 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Christ condemns those who would break “the Commandments” of God for the sake of man-made tradition – and this is done while speaking to Jewish leaders and referencing the 5th commandment!
Christ’s followers continue to keep the Sabbath commandment and so we can see that they were obeying His command that they should “Love Me and Keep My Commandments” John 14:15 (which in fact is quoting from the 3rd commandment in Exodus 20)
Notice that when speaking to a non-Christian – non-follower, the reference “the commandments” is still fully understood.
Matt 19:17 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Christ condemns those who would break “the Commandments” of God for the sake of man-made tradition – and this is done while speaking to Jewish leaders and referencing the 5th commandment!
Christ’s followers continue to keep the Sabbath commandment and so we can see that they were obeying His command that they should “Love Me and Keep My Commandments” John 14:15 (which in fact is quoting from the 3rd commandment in Exodus 20)
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
WHY is it that Paul writes
Rom 3:31 NASB
"Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we Establish the Law"[/b] Rom 3:31 NASB
Rom 3:31 NKJV
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
Rom 3:31 NIV
31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
Rom 3:31 KJV
31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Rom 3:31 YLT
31 Law then do we make useless through the faith? let it not be! yea, we do establish law.
The Post-cross teaching of the apostles CONTINUES to support that importance of God’s Word – God’s Commandments – and obedience rather than rebellion.
I Jn 5:2-3
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Rev 12:17
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 14:12
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 22:14
14[b] Blessed are they that do his commandments,[/b] that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
I Jn 2:3-4
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.
Rom 3:31 NASB
"Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we Establish the Law"[/b] Rom 3:31 NASB
Rom 3:31 NKJV
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
Rom 3:31 NIV
31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
Rom 3:31 KJV
31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Rom 3:31 YLT
31 Law then do we make useless through the faith? let it not be! yea, we do establish law.
The Post-cross teaching of the apostles CONTINUES to support that importance of God’s Word – God’s Commandments – and obedience rather than rebellion.
I Jn 5:2-3
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Rev 12:17
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 14:12
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 22:14
14[b] Blessed are they that do his commandments,[/b] that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
I Jn 2:3-4
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Commandments of Christ vs Commandments of God??
Dividing scripture against scripture? God against God?
Matt 5:17-19
Matt 5
17 ""[b]Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets[/b]; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
18 ""For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law[/b] until all is accomplished.
19 ""[b]Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same[/b], shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but [b]whoever keeps and teaches them[/b], he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Matt 19:17 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
John 15:10-11 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
John 14:15 (quoting from the 10 commandments) “IF you love Me Keep My commandments”
I Jn 2:3-4
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.
Ephesians 6
1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right.
2 HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER (which is the first commandment with a promise),
3 SO THAT IT MAY BE WELL WITH YOU, AND THAT YOU MAY LIVE LONG ON THE EARTH.
It is left as an exercise for the reader to see that these are all references to the unity between the Word of God and the Word of Christ.. Commandments of God and Commandments of Christ – for the “The Lord your God is ONE” – the Triune God is not divided “Christ vs the Father”.
Dividing scripture against scripture? God against God?
Matt 5:17-19
Matt 5
17 ""[b]Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets[/b]; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
18 ""For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law[/b] until all is accomplished.
19 ""[b]Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same[/b], shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but [b]whoever keeps and teaches them[/b], he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Matt 19:17 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
John 15:10-11 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
John 14:15 (quoting from the 10 commandments) “IF you love Me Keep My commandments”
I Jn 2:3-4
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.
Ephesians 6
1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right.
2 HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER (which is the first commandment with a promise),
3 SO THAT IT MAY BE WELL WITH YOU, AND THAT YOU MAY LIVE LONG ON THE EARTH.
It is left as an exercise for the reader to see that these are all references to the unity between the Word of God and the Word of Christ.. Commandments of God and Commandments of Christ – for the “The Lord your God is ONE” – the Triune God is not divided “Christ vs the Father”.
Good advice Bob
Until I am fully convinced otherwise, our family will continue to strive to obey all of the 10 commandments. I feel it's better to be safe than sorry.
Edited to add: You quickly posted quickly a few more times, I'll go over your posts.
Until I am fully convinced otherwise, our family will continue to strive to obey all of the 10 commandments. I feel it's better to be safe than sorry.
Edited to add: You quickly posted quickly a few more times, I'll go over your posts.
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10 Commandments
The words "ten commandments" are not found in the Bible many times. Regarding the law God usually says OBEY ALL that I command you.
Deut. 5:33 Ye shall walk in all the ways which the LORD your God hath commanded you, that ye may live, and that it may be well with you, and that ye may prolong your days in the land which ye shall possess.
Deut. 6:24 And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day. 25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.
Deut. 8:1 All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live,
Deut. 28:1 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:
If you need more "alls" read through Deuteronomy. In fact read it so you know all the commandments. :tonofbricks:
All means all. Not 7, 9, or 10. If you are going to do the law you had better do it all.
Here are a couple of more "alls".
Gal. 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal. 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. (OK, so it says whole, not all).
Now, look back in Gal. 4 and see the references to Mount Sinai, Hagar,
4:24 ...for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia,
4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son:
But, thank Jesus:
4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The words "ten commandments" are not found in the Bible many times. Regarding the law God usually says OBEY ALL that I command you.
Deut. 5:33 Ye shall walk in all the ways which the LORD your God hath commanded you, that ye may live, and that it may be well with you, and that ye may prolong your days in the land which ye shall possess.
Deut. 6:24 And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day. 25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.
Deut. 8:1 All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live,
Deut. 28:1 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:
If you need more "alls" read through Deuteronomy. In fact read it so you know all the commandments. :tonofbricks:
All means all. Not 7, 9, or 10. If you are going to do the law you had better do it all.
Here are a couple of more "alls".
Gal. 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal. 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. (OK, so it says whole, not all).
Now, look back in Gal. 4 and see the references to Mount Sinai, Hagar,
4:24 ...for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia,
4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son:
But, thank Jesus:
4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
trustitl said:
Better yet the words "Nine Commandments" and "Seven Commandments" are found exactly ZERO times! And this is what you would expect of man-made-tradition -- is it not? Is it really "persecution" to be aware of the fact that the zero-times belief and in some cases the zero-commandments belief simply is not found in scripture?
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Now to affirm the vast majority of those taking the poll who DO agree that the commandments ARE binding even today!
Ex 20
22 Then the LORD said to Moses, ""Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, "You yourselves have seen that I have spoken to you from heaven.
He also points out after listing THE TEN (that He calls THE TEN in chapter 4) that “God added NO more”.
10 Commandments
1) Called the "royal law" James 2:8.
2) Was spoken by God.
Deuteronomy 4:12, 13.
3) Was written with the
finger of God. Exodus 31:18.
4) Was placed in the ark.
Exodus 40:20, Hebrew 9:4.
5) Is to "stand forever and ever.
Psalms 111:7, 8.
6) Was not destroyed by Christ.
Matthew 5:17 & 18.
7) Written on stone “And God added no more” Deut 5:22
8) Continued in that UNIT in the NT (Eph 6:1-3) where the fifth commandment is the FIRST in that list ‘with a promise’.
Ex 20
22 Then the LORD said to Moses, ""Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, "You yourselves have seen that I have spoken to you from heaven.
He also points out after listing THE TEN (that He calls THE TEN in chapter 4) that “God added NO more”.
10 Commandments
1) Called the "royal law" James 2:8.
2) Was spoken by God.
Deuteronomy 4:12, 13.
3) Was written with the
finger of God. Exodus 31:18.
4) Was placed in the ark.
Exodus 40:20, Hebrew 9:4.
5) Is to "stand forever and ever.
Psalms 111:7, 8.
6) Was not destroyed by Christ.
Matthew 5:17 & 18.
7) Written on stone “And God added no more” Deut 5:22
8) Continued in that UNIT in the NT (Eph 6:1-3) where the fifth commandment is the FIRST in that list ‘with a promise’.
Here is a good way of saying all. And note that it is not just all 10 Commandments.
Matt. 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Bob, is right about the Sabbath. It is Saturday. But there is more to keeping the law than just 10 Commandments.:tonofbricks:
Matt. 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Bob, is right about the Sabbath. It is Saturday. But there is more to keeping the law than just 10 Commandments.:tonofbricks:
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Ed Edwards said:
Facinating news.
1. Genesis 2:3 says the Sabbath was made as a holy day for Adam.
2. Exodus 20 says that God's creation week activity established the Sabbath for mankind.
3. Mark 2:27 Christ said the "the Sabbath was made for mankind"
4. Isaiah 66 "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to Worship".
But as we note in your post -- the big news is that mankind is "just Jews" :applause:
You gotta wonder what the source of that news is!:wavey:
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Alcott said:
Interesting how the majority here found a place to vote for the commandments as still binding - and yet the minority claim that this poll can not really be taken??
As for the rule 8 "Whatever is not repeated get's deleted" in scripture... no text of scripture could survive such an "auto-delete" model.
But one has to be thankful that in the delete-scripture approach taken above the PRECROSS commandments (see the concept of exegesis) referrred to by Christ in the Gospels are still valid.
That is a big step "into the light" on this topic for those pursuing a "whatever not repeated get's deleted" approach to scripture. One has to wonder if the Ten Commandments would have survived the book of Job, or Jonah or Micah on such an "auto-delete" policy.
in Christ,
Bob
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