That's the Spirit

I look in scripture and it tells me that everything was created for a purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil. I see guys like Judus. Was it ordained that Judus betray our Lord? Yet, doesn't Jesus say that it would have been better for him if he had not been born? What about Assyria, God calls them his messiah, because he ordained that they judge Israel for their sin. Yet, later on he destrys Assyria for what they did to Israel. If God can ordain these things, why can't he be right to give a call, (as a potter) to everyone (the clay) so that everyone is held culpable. Yet violates the will of some for His name sake, and let others perish like they want too. Arminians act as if their are those out there who struggle against God's will. As if there is someone out there saying, "I really want to be a christian, but God won't let me!" God gave the Israelites the law, yet before the law was given, he still held them to the righteousness that the law revealed. This is a paradox in itself. But one that is supported in scripture.

 

Npetreley, your ignorance is simply astounding.

God supplies the God-facts upon which man of his own free will decides for himself about God. It is not that difficult to understand.

Man makes decisions based on knowledge daily using his own free will; you know decisions, such as what will I wear today? what will I have for breakfast? with which personality trait will I drive to work today? How will I handle Deacon Hurley today? Wow, I just found a wallet with a lot of cash and an ID card, will I try to return it or just apply the finder's keepers principle. Every day every one of us uses our own free will to make decisions, some important, some mundane. But, we make those decisions based on knowledge we have including experience, moral knowledge, physical knowledge, etc. You simply cannot live life without free will.

You read the bible to gain knowledge which influences every decision you make. You do not read the bible to find out what to do in every situation you encounter, that is in part the purpose of prayer. Even prayer is a free will effort on you part, you choose what to pray about for yourself, and of course you may receive other influences in what and who to pray for, but you determine for the most part what you are going to say to God out of your own free will.

It's a shame you have not understood free will, all the time trying to make it something that Only God has, and that man cannot have. God made us that way, whether or not you choose to acknowledge it.

 

Yelsew stated -
"your ignorance is simply astounding."


translation -
"Hi pot, this is kettle, you black"


Yelsew, bible, bible, bible!

 

Here's what Paul, (who by the way was saved against the will he had which chose to be zealous for God and murder people who followed the way), had to say:

"Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God."

This shoots down your notion that we pray from our own will. Actually, I would say man can and does pray from his will, but that God only hears the prayer which is by the Spirit; which brings us back to the prayer of repentance which is led by the Holy Spirit.

That's the Spirit.

Bro. Dallas

 

Ok, that wasn't too hard. Thank you for clarifing your position. I recently had a conversation with a theology professor from SWBTS who discribed it a bit differently from the Calvinistic perspective. Most of the Calvinist I have read and talked to don't affirm a "genernal calling" of the Holy Spirit, but only a "general calling" of the gospel. But that is good to know.

I believe it was you who took issue with the verse out of Rev. 22:17 which Speaks directly of the "general call" of the Holy Spirit, and you seemed to discredit that as being a truely geniune general call to all men by asserting:

quote:
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Originally posted by Brother Bill:
"The Spirit of the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life."
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Calvinist, including you here, seem to assert by saying "him who hears" is only the elect? Am I correct in my understanding?

Assuming that I'm understanding your position, which is that there are two distinct callings of the Spirit: general and effectual; I have a few questions for you:

1. Where in scripture does it teach of an "effectual calling" for anyone but the apostles?

(For example, we spoke about Eph. 3:7 as Paul's effectual calling to apostleship, which happened at the same time as his salvation. We see something similar in Galatians 1:15 and 2:8. )

Also, I know that John 6 is a popular passage for Calvinist support of effectual callling, but once again it does not apply here. Why, you ask?

Paul carefully explains in Romans that Israel (Jews) is being hardened for the ingrafting of the Gentiles and only the Remnant will be chosen out of Israel to carry out God's plan of redemption to all mankind. Jesus also speaks of this when he tells the disciples that his message is veiled to Israel, which is why he speaks in parables to them. Which, btw, is interesting to me that Christ would feel it necessary to veil his message or actively hardened Jews if the "general calling" of the gospel isn't enough to convince them anyway. There is no doubt that Christ was toning down his message because it wasn't the proper time, but there is also the obvious teaching of God's hardening of the Israelites.

Keeping this ACTIVE HARDENING in mind is essential to understanding Jesus' teaching in John 6. His audience is Israel, the hardened ones, and he is saying to them that none of you can be my apostles unless the Lord has given you to me for that purpose. You are being hardened, all of you expect the REMNANT who are being "enabled." Calvinist insist on appling this very unique situation in History to their soteriology of all mankind. But if you notice the way the Bible speaks of the Gentiles reception to the gospel and willingness to listen (which is even better that to merely hear), you can see that these verses do not apply to all saints in the same way. Paul clearly laid out for us in Acts 28:25b-28:

"The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your forefathers when he said through Isaiah the prophet: 'Go to this people and say, You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be even seeing but never perceiving. For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Other wise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!"

You asked: Who hears, and how? Who is thirsty, and why? Who wishes, and why?

Who are the ones who will hear? The gentiles will not only hear they will listen! Why? They are not hardened by God. And the geniune call of the Spirit through the message of the Gospel is the power of God unto Salvation to everyone who hears it; first to the Jews and then to the GENTILES.

Who are the ones who thirst? The gentiles for they have not been hardened. They aren't so consumed with their own righteousness that they can't see the righteousness that God has made known.

Who are those who wish? The Gentiles for they realize they are sinners by the call of the spirit and the revelation of the Gospel to repentance and faith. To whom is forgiven much, loves much.

Second Question:
2. Where does the Bible speak of Gentiles being "individually chosen" by God?

Once again I am well aware of the fact that God CHOSE or ELECTED to reveal the gospel of faith and repentance to the Gentile nations. But the verses that Calvinists use to support individual election of Gentile souls can just as easily (if not more easily) be applied to God's general choosing to allow Gentiles access to covevant with HIM.

2 Thess. 2:13 is a prime example: Paul is addressed a primarily Gentile audience while being imprisioned for being an Apostle of Christ to the Gentiles. What do you think are the issues on his mind? The MYSTERY we spoke of in Ephesians. The Gentiles were chosen by God to be grafted in and the Jews hate this message! Even some of the Jewish "believers" called Judiazers are hammering Paul on this issue. He is not thinking about a Calvinism verses Arminian debate, he is thinking about a divine mystery which is commonly accepted among us today, but it was a HUGE DEAL to the people of the 1st century. In that context Paul says,

"We ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth."

LET'S BREAK THIS DOWN:
Most likely considering the context of Paul's life he is saying, "We thank the Lord that his plan from the beginning (which was once a mystery) was to choose you (the Gentiles) to be saved."
By what means?

"Through the sanctifing of the Spirit."

What are the means to that?

"belief in truth"

What are the means to that?

"He called you to this"

Now HERE is the real question. By what means does HE CALL THEM? "through our gospel."

What? The means that he called the Gentiles to salvation wasn't his "effectual calling" but his "general calling" of the gospel presentation, that doesn't support the Calvinistic line of thought. Hmmm.

What you Calvinists call "Total Depravity" should be called "Total Hardening" because the verses you use to support the inablity of one to come to Christ is directly related to the Hardening of Israel and has absolutely nothing to do with the "Man's Inability" to respond to the geniune call of the Spirit and the Gospel.

Poor hermeneutics always lead to poor theology.

Third question:
3) Why even have a general call of the Spirit and the gospel in your system? What purpose do they serve? They can't save anyone and they obviously just provide confusion to your system of belief, why are they both included?

With Respect,
Bro. Bill

 

DITTO Sturgman

 

Having reached the "age of infirmities", I can assure you that I fully understand what Paul is saying. Except when in intercessory prayer, I pray, using my own words for my own worship and petition. The Holy Spirit reminds me of the things that I don't have forefront in my will to pray for, thereby bringing those to the forefront of my will so that I will pray for them too! I have often been in prayer for extended sessions (hours instead of moments) because of the Holy Spirit.

Do I have something to boast about? Not at all, I am a bond-servant to the Lord Jesus Christ. I am nothing, worthy of nothing, but I have received the promise that I will be with my savior throughout eternity. Therefore my faith is based on nothing less than Jesus Love and Righteousness. My knowledge, however, comes from all of creation, and is not restricted to the bible. Yours too! whether or not you are willing to acknowledge it.

 

All Truth comes from the Bible, not human experience.

The Bible is not a Supreme Court which will/can and does change interpretation of the Law just because a group of men now believe something is out-dated.

Scripture is founded upon the fountainhead of truth God's Word.

Bro. Dallas

 

Npetreley,

I've noticed something about you. You dance around arguments. Besides your argument concerning the word "and" instead of "through" you fail to address anything. Your correct there is an "and" there. This doesn't hurt the translation I was presenting either way, we both believe that the work of the spirit comes before belief in the truth. The point you failed to see was the means by which the Spirit and the belief come.

"He called you THROUGH OUR GOSPEL" This is the part of the scripture that breaks down Calvinisms line of reasoning concerning the "effectual calling" of God.

Which, by the way, I've figured out that you have no idea what I'm refering to when I say "effectual calling," do you? This is a term that many of the more modern Calvinists (Sproul, MacArthur, Piper) use for "irresistable grace." Go back and read my arguments with that in mind and maybe they will make more sense to you. Or maybe not, you have a tendency to not understand arguments you don't agree with, don't you?

I know your going to make a rude comment, but there are several Calvinists on this board who don't agree with me, but at least they understand my arguments. So I wonder who it is that is confused here?

I have to run now, but I'll address your comments that pretty much just "blew off" my arguments concerning the hardening of Israel when I get a chance. Between now and then you might want to read up on that, you don't seem to have a very firm grasp on that. Even Calvinists write pretty extensively on it, so there is no reason for you not to know this stuff.

Bill

 

If you truly believe this, Your faith will never experience its full potential. You will always be held in check by the walls you build. If your faith is truly in Jesus Christ the one who created the heavens and the Earth and all that is in them, then you should also trust what he created.