Calvinists admit only two kinds of call from the gospel to man-the common and the effectual. [...] The common call consists of the preached word, addressed to men's ears and souls, together with (in most, at least), the common convincing operations of the Holy Spirit. This call is made generally to the whole human race in Scripture, and specifically to each adult to whom the gospel comes. The effectual call, we hold, consists of these elements, and also of a work of the Holy Spirit, "whereby convincing us of our sin and misery, enlightening our minds in the knowledge of Christ, and renewing our wills, He doth persuade and enable us to embrace Jesus Christ freely offered to us in the gospel."
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That doesn't fit your claim that "they deny the working of the Holy Spirit...to those who are not His elect" at all.
Ok, that wasn't too hard. Thank you for clarifing your position. I recently had a conversation with a theology professor from SWBTS who discribed it a bit differently from the Calvinistic perspective. Most of the Calvinist I have read and talked to don't affirm a "genernal calling" of the Holy Spirit, but only a "general calling" of the gospel. But that is good to know.
I believe it was you who took issue with the verse out of Rev. 22:17 which Speaks directly of the "general call" of the Holy Spirit, and you seemed to discredit that as being a truely geniune general call to all men by asserting:
quote:
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Originally posted by Brother Bill:
"The Spirit of the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life."
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Npety's response:
That describes Calvinism perfectly. Him who hears. Whoever is thirsty. Whowever wishes. The questions you have not answered from scripture are: Who hears, and how? Who is thirsty, and why? Who wishes, and why?
Calvinist, including you here, seem to assert by saying "him who hears" is only the elect? Am I correct in my understanding?
Assuming that I'm understanding your position, which is that there are two distinct callings of the Spirit: general and effectual; I have a few questions for you:
1. Where in scripture does it teach of an "effectual calling" for anyone but the apostles?
(For example, we spoke about Eph. 3:7 as Paul's effectual calling to apostleship, which happened at the same time as his salvation. We see something similar in Galatians 1:15 and 2:8. )
Also, I know that John 6 is a popular passage for Calvinist support of effectual callling, but once again it does not apply here. Why, you ask?
Paul carefully explains in Romans that Israel (Jews) is being hardened for the ingrafting of the Gentiles and only the Remnant will be chosen out of Israel to carry out God's plan of redemption to all mankind. Jesus also speaks of this when he tells the disciples that his message is veiled to Israel, which is why he speaks in parables to them. Which, btw, is interesting to me that Christ would feel it necessary to veil his message or actively hardened Jews if the "general calling" of the gospel isn't enough to convince them anyway. There is no doubt that Christ was toning down his message because it wasn't the proper time, but there is also the obvious teaching of God's hardening of the Israelites.
Keeping this ACTIVE HARDENING in mind is essential to understanding Jesus' teaching in John 6. His audience is Israel, the hardened ones, and he is saying to them that none of you can be my apostles unless the Lord has given you to me for that purpose. You are being hardened, all of you expect the REMNANT who are being "enabled." Calvinist insist on appling this very unique situation in History to their soteriology of all mankind. But if you notice the way the Bible speaks of the Gentiles reception to the gospel and willingness to listen (which is even better that to merely hear), you can see that these verses do not apply to all saints in the same way. Paul clearly laid out for us in Acts 28:25b-28:
"The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your forefathers when he said through Isaiah the prophet: 'Go to this people and say, You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be even seeing but never perceiving. For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Other wise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!"
You asked: Who hears, and how? Who is thirsty, and why? Who wishes, and why?
Who are the ones who will hear? The gentiles will not only hear they will listen! Why? They are not hardened by God. And the geniune call of the Spirit through the message of the Gospel is the power of God unto Salvation to everyone who hears it; first to the Jews and then to the GENTILES.
Who are the ones who thirst? The gentiles for they have not been hardened. They aren't so consumed with their own righteousness that they can't see the righteousness that God has made known.
Who are those who wish? The Gentiles for they realize they are sinners by the call of the spirit and the revelation of the Gospel to repentance and faith. To whom is forgiven much, loves much.
Second Question:
2. Where does the Bible speak of Gentiles being "individually chosen" by God?
Once again I am well aware of the fact that God CHOSE or ELECTED to reveal the gospel of faith and repentance to the Gentile nations. But the verses that Calvinists use to support individual election of Gentile souls can just as easily (if not more easily) be applied to God's general choosing to allow Gentiles access to covevant with HIM.
2 Thess. 2:13 is a prime example: Paul is addressed a primarily Gentile audience while being imprisioned for being an Apostle of Christ to the Gentiles. What do you think are the issues on his mind? The MYSTERY we spoke of in Ephesians. The Gentiles were chosen by God to be grafted in and the Jews hate this message! Even some of the Jewish "believers" called Judiazers are hammering Paul on this issue. He is not thinking about a Calvinism verses Arminian debate, he is thinking about a divine mystery which is commonly accepted among us today, but it was a HUGE DEAL to the people of the 1st century. In that context Paul says,
"We ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth."
LET'S BREAK THIS DOWN:
Most likely considering the context of Paul's life he is saying, "We thank the Lord that his plan from the beginning (which was once a mystery) was to choose you (the Gentiles) to be saved."
By what means?
"Through the sanctifing of the Spirit."
What are the means to that?
"belief in truth"
What are the means to that?
"He called you to this"
Now HERE is the real question. By what means does HE CALL THEM? "through our gospel."
What? The means that he called the Gentiles to salvation wasn't his "effectual calling" but his "general calling" of the gospel presentation, that doesn't support the Calvinistic line of thought. Hmmm.
What you Calvinists call "Total Depravity" should be called "Total Hardening" because the verses you use to support the inablity of one to come to Christ is directly related to the Hardening of Israel and has absolutely nothing to do with the "Man's Inability" to respond to the geniune call of the Spirit and the Gospel.
Poor hermeneutics always lead to poor theology.
Third question:
3) Why even have a general call of the Spirit and the gospel in your system? What purpose do they serve? They can't save anyone and they obviously just provide confusion to your system of belief, why are they both included?
With Respect,
Bro. Bill