The 1000 years

[Ed Edwards]

Amy.G: // Aren't we (the body of Christ) the temple? //
// Is Christ not already Priest, King, prophet and judge? //

Yes 'we' are. And your question is?

of 6 Billion people on earth:
4 billion don't worship the same God we do
1 Billion of those worship a god called Allah
1 Billion of the 2 Billion that do worship the same God as we are members of the RCC - with very few of 'we' in it.
Maybe there are 200 Million real Messanic folk like you and I.
This is only about 3% (narrow is the path) of the world population to whom Messiah Jesus is Priest, King, prophet and judge.
This 3% is the now living 'like the body of Messiah', 'like the temple' of God.

The other 97% of the earth's population are 'the world'. The worldly Jews will build a temple, because they want to. The worldly Jews will rebuild the temple as soon as they are allowed by the Allah worshipers. The Temple must be built in Jerusalem and at the right place on 'Temple Mount'. We Messianic people know that Messiah Jesus is the perfect and complete.

 

[Amy.G]

[

Ed Edwards]

Caution: WRONG STATEMENT:
The 'day of the Lord' like other occurrences of 'day of the Lord' is when Jesus Comes again (AKA: Second Coming, advent, rapture, resurrection, etc). Then the universes are trashed to make way for it being restored. Note that according to this a-mill theory, the 20th chapter of Revelation needs to be trashed, 1,000 years worth of history trashed

The "day of the Lord" is the wrath and judgment of God, not the rapture, although He will rapture believers before He pours out His wrath.

1Th 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

The day of the Lord is clearly wrath and destruction on the unbelieving world. It will come unannounced.

Correct interpretation: 'day of the Lord' = the 1,000 year long (Millennial) Messianic Kingdom when Messiah Jesus shall reign on earth on David's throne. The ',' here is the Millennial Messianic Kingdom, just like in Revelation 20. Yep, the Millennial Messianic Kingdom is like a comma in 2 Peter 3:10

How can the day of the Lord be the 1000 year period where Christ rules and all is well and people live in righteousness (at least that's how I understand the pre-trib/pre-mil position) when the Bible says it is a day of destruction?

I know it complicates one's pet Eschatology theory, but how does your Eschatolgy help you in your works-witness to other people?

That is an interesting question. For pre-tribbers, the rapture takes out believers, but unbelievers will have another chance to repent during the tribulation. For A-mils, there will be no other chance when Christ returns, because He won't be coming back a third time. I think the A-mil position is the better one for motivating people to repent NOW.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Amy: // For pre-tribbers, the rapture takes out believers, but unbelievers will have another chance to repent during the tribulation. //

There are those pre-tribs who believe that though people might 'have another chance' to repent during the tribulation - they will not.

Rev 9:18-21 (KJV1611 Edition):
By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone which issued out of their mouthes.
19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tailes: for their tailes were like vnto serpents, and had heads, and with them they doe hurt.
20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues, yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship deuils, and idoles of golde, and siluer, and brasse, and stone, and of wood, which neither can see, nor heare, nor walke:
21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

note that idolatry, murder, sorcery, fornication and theft is the most popular sins today

 

[Ed Edwards]

Figure it out for yourself.

---------------------------
Word study day of the Lord and related phrases:


I: 27 each day of the Lord found:

Isa 13:6 (HCSB): Wail! For the day of the Lord is near.
It will come like destruction from the Almighty.

Isa 13:9 (HCSB): Look, the day of the Lord is coming-
cruel, with rage and burning anger-
to make the earth a desolation
and to destroy the sinners on it.

La 2:22 (HCSB): You summoned my attackers on every side,
as if [for] an appointed festival day;
on the day of the Lord's anger
no one escaped or survived.
My enemy has destroyed
those I nurtured and reared.

Eze 7:19 (HCSB): They will throw their silver into the streets,
and their gold will seem like something filthy.
Their silver and gold will be unable to save them
in the day of the Lord's wrath.
They will not satisfy their appetites
or fill their stomachs,
for these were the stumbling blocks
that brought about their iniquity.

Eze 13:5 (HCSB): You did not go up to the gaps or restore
the wall around the house of Israel so that it might stand in battle
on the day of the Lord.

Ho 9:5 (HCSB): What will you do on a festival day,
on the day of the Lord's feast?

Joe 1:15 (HCSB): Woe because of that day!
For the day of the Lord is near
and will come as devastation from the Almighty.

Joe 2:1 (HCSB): Blow the horn in Zion;
sound the alarm on My holy mountain!
Let all the residents of the land tremble,
for the day of the Lord is coming;
in fact, it is near-

Joe 2:11 (HCSB): The Lord raises His voice
in the presence of His army.
His camp is very large;
Those who carry out His command are powerful.
Indeed, the day of the Lord is terrible and dreadful -
who can endure it?

Joe 2:31 (HCSB): The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the great and awe inspiring day of the Lord comes.

Joe 3:14 (HCSB): Multitudes, multitudes
in the valley of decision!
For the day of the Lord is near
in the valley of decision.

Am 5:18 (HCSB): Woe to you who long for the day of the Lord!
What will the day of the Lord be for you?
It will be darkness and not light.

Am 5:20 (HCSB): Won't the day of the Lord
be darkness rather than light,
even gloom without any brightness in it?

Ob 1:15 (HCSB): For the day of the Lord is near,
against all the nations.
As you have done, so it will be done to you;
what you deserve will return on your own head.

Zep 1:7 (HCSB): Be silent in the presence of the Lord God,
for the day of the Lord is near.
Indeed, the Lord has prepared a sacrifice;
He has consecrated His guests.

Zep 1:8 (HCSB): On the day of the Lord's sacrifice
I will punish the officials, the king's sons,
and all who are dressed in foreign clothing.

Zep 1:14 (HCSB): The great day of the Lord is near,
near and rapidly approaching.
Listen, the day of the Lord-
there the warrior's cry is bitter.

Zep 1:18 (HCSB): Their silver and their gold
will not be able to rescue them
on the day of the Lord's wrath.
The whole earth will be consumed
by the fire of His jealousy.
For He will make a complete,
yes, a horrifying end
of all the inhabitants of the earth.

Zep 2:2 (HCSB): before the decree takes effect
and the day passes like chaff,
before the burning of the Lord's anger overtakes you,
before the day of the Lord's anger overtakes you.

Zep 2:3 (HCSB): Seek the Lord, all you humble of the earth,
who carry out what He commands.
Seek righteousness, seek humility;
perhaps you will be concealed
on the day of the Lord's anger.

Zec 14:1 (HCSB): A day of the Lord is coming when your plunder will be divided in your presence.

Mal 4:5 (HCSB): Look, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.

Ac 2:20 (HCSB): The sun will be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and remarkable day of the Lord comes;

1Co 5:5 (HCSB): turn that one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

1Th 5:2 (HCSB): For you yourselves know very well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.

2Th 2:2 (HCSB): not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the day of the Lord has come.

2Pe 3:10 (HCSB): But the day of the Lord will come like a thief; on that day the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, the elements will burn and be dissolved, and the earth and the works on it will be disclosed.


II: 3 each day of Christ found:

Php 1:6 (HCSB): I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Php 1:10 (HCSB): so that you can determine what really matters and can be pure and blameless in the day of Christ,

Php 2:16 (HCSB): Hold firmly the message of life. Then I can boast in the day of Christ that I didn't run in vain or labor for nothing.


III: 3 each day of God found:

Job 20:28 (HCSB): The possessions in his house will be removed,
flowing away on the day of God's anger.

2Pe 3:12 (HCSB): as you wait for and earnestly desire the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be on fire and be dissolved, and the elements will melt with the heat.

Re 16:14 (HCSB): For they are spirits of demons performing signs, who travel to the kings of the whole world to assemble them for the battle of the great day of God, the Almighty.


IV: 7 each day of judgment found:

Mt 10:15 (HCSB): I assure you: It will be more tolerable
on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town.

Mt 11:22 (HCSB): But I tell you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you.

Mt 11:24 (HCSB): But I tell you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom on the day of judgment than for you."

Mt 12:36 (HCSB): I tell you that on the day of judgment people will have to account for every careless word they speak.

2Pe 2:9 (HCSB): then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,

2Pe 3:7 (HCSB): But by the same word the present heavens and earth are held in store for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

1Jo 4:17 (HCSB): In this, love is perfected with us so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; for we are as He is in this world.

---------------------------

I think there is one definition of Day of the Lord that fits all cases:

'Day of the Lord' - a time in which God intervenes in the affairs of Mankind.

Here is my Pre-trib, pre-mill time line of our future:

---------------------------
Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues -- you are here
1. rapture/resurrection
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. physical/literal MK=millennial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth
---------------------------

During 1,2,3,4 the Lord intervenes directly.
The Tribulation Period Judgments are the Day of the Lord
In 2 Peter 3:10 we saw that the Millennial Messanic Kingdom Age is the 'Day of the Lord'.
What other parameters of the 'Day of the Lord' do we see here?

 

[Ed Edwards]

1Th 5:2 (HCSB): For you yourselves know very well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night

IMHO this is a prophecy of the pre-Tribulation rapture/resurrection. Here the 'day of the Lord' is when the Lord takes the Saints home to be with Him forever more.

 

[Marcia]

Amy, I think Mr. Edwards has studied this topic quite thoroughly and carefully. Even if one disagrees, one cannot dismiss him as having jumped to conclusions!

I happen to agree with Mr. Edwards.

I recommend that to understand this better, it would be good to study Daniel first, and then Revelation. Kay Arthur's study books on Daniel and Revelation are good and will help you to see the prophecies in Daniel and how they line up with Revelation. It is time consuming but well worth it. A small group I was in about 2 or 3 yrs. ago did this and it was very rewarding. It is fascinating to see how detailed the prophecies are in Daniel.

I feel like I have forgotten many of the details and need to do it again, but it did instill in me a stronger belief in the pre-mill pre-trib rapture position.

Another helpful book might be "Revelation: Four Views: A Parallel Commentary" by Steve Gregg, which is the book of Revelation giving the 4 main interpretations of the text.

 

[Amy.G]

Thanks Ed and Marcia. I have always been taught the pre-trib view, but to my shame I have never studied it out for myself. I have determined to do just that recently, hence all my questions.

I know God put it in His book for us to learn and understand, so that is what I'm trying to do.

I love Kay Arthur. I will check into her books on the subject. :thumbs:

Thanks to all who have responded to my questions. :godisgood:

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Amy.G: // Aren't we (the body of Christ) the temple? //
// Is Christ not already Priest, King, prophet and judge? //

Yes 'we' are. And your question is?

of 6 Billion people on earth:
4 billion don't worship the same God we do
1 Billion of those worship a god called Allah
1 Billion of the 2 Billion that do worship the same God as we are members of the RCC - with very few of 'we' in it.
Maybe there are 200 Million real Messanic folk like you and I.
This is only about 3% (narrow is the path) of the world population to whom Messiah Jesus is Priest, King, prophet and judge.
This 3% is the now living 'like the body of Messiah', 'like the temple' of God.

The other 97% of the earth's population are 'the world'. The worldly Jews will build a temple, because they want to. The worldly Jews will rebuild the temple as soon as they are allowed by the Allah worshipers. The Temple must be built in Jerusalem and at the right place on 'Temple Mount'. We Messianic people know that Messiah Jesus is the perfect and complete.

GE:
How refreshing to find something to agree on with you, Ed Edwards!

May I though suggest two alterations?
Move the 3% decimal two digits back to get a wee bit better idea of the true numbers!

And add as a final word, 'temple':- "Jesus is the perfect and complete Temple", because He is the only Temple of and for true Christians.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Elder Gerhard Ebersoehn: // And add as a final word, 'temple':- "Jesus is the perfect and complete Temple", because He is the only Temple of and for true Christians. //

Amen, Brother Elder Gerhard Ebersoehn -- you can Preach that!

Elder Gerhard Ebersoehn speaking of the relative number of Real Christians (on the Lord's list) alive in today's world: // Move the 3% decimal two digits back to get a wee bit better idea of the true numbers! //

Sorry, The 3% figure fits to many different scriptures.

Jesus says: Matthew 7:13-14 (NIV):
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

My 3% is a small number (200 Million Real Christians alive today out of 2 Billion named 'Christians') as is Elder Gerhard's number of 0.03% (200,000)

Here is the scene in Heaven just after the pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection of the Saints: Revelation 7:9 (NIV):
After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

Yet Revelation mentions the number 200 Million - a multitude one can count. Those round the throne include all the Real Christians, the Real Jews(Israeli), and others who believed in Messiah Jesus before or after His birth. That is all the Real Messianic persons that lived throughout History up to the time of the pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection.

So sorry, I'm going to go with the smallest number of now living Saints that can be Real Messianic persons is 200 Million (3% of the 6 Billion persons alive today). The mileage of others will vary.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Ed Edwards:
"My 3% is a small number (200 Million Real Christians alive today out of 2 Billion named 'Christians') as is Elder Gerhard's number of 0.03% (200,000)"

GE:
Kindly note: I am mr nobody from nowhere or better from worse, from South Africa, or better still from worse, kicked out of the SDA church when young still and that tells the whole story -- mr nobody, please and thanks.

I reckoned a number of two digits back; 20,000 maybe? When Elijah thought he was the only, there were 7000. When Abraham thought maybe there's a hundred, there were Lot and ?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Ed Edwards:
"The 3% figure fits to many different scriptures"

Saying this, you make of it a serious matter. Which Scriptures? 'The Revelation' Nowhere! Setting figures is as bad as setting dates -- which I have seen you doing.

 

[webdog]

Thanks Ed and Marcia. I have always been taught the pre-trib view, but to my shame I have never studied it out for myself. I have determined to do just that recently, hence all my questions.

I know God put it in His book for us to learn and understand, so that is what I'm trying to do.

I love Kay Arthur. I will check into her books on the subject. :thumbs:

Thanks to all who have responded to my questions. :godisgood:

John MacArthur and Chuck Swindoll are also eschatologically sound :thumbs:

 

[webdog]

Amy: // For pre-tribbers, the rapture takes out believers, but unbelievers will have another chance to repent during the tribulation. //

There are those pre-tribs who believe that though people might 'have another chance' to repent during the tribulation - they will not.

Rev 9:18-21 (KJV1611 Edition):
By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone which issued out of their mouthes.
19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tailes: for their tailes were like vnto serpents, and had heads, and with them they doe hurt.
20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues, yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship deuils, and idoles of golde, and siluer, and brasse, and stone, and of wood, which neither can see, nor heare, nor walke:
21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

note that idolatry, murder, sorcery, fornication and theft is the most popular sins today

I happen to be one of the pre-tribbers who believe there will be a chance to repent...albeit with a huge price (martyrdom). Unless one is a calvinist, and believes the Gospel can be preached to people who have not been given the ability to repent and be saved, the following is quite powerful:

2Pe 3:9 (HCSB)The Lord does not delay His promise, as some understand delay, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance.

Rev 14:6 (HCSB)Then I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, having the eternal gospel to announce to the inhabitants of the earth--to every nation, tribe, language, and people.
Rev 14:7 He spoke with a loud voice: "Fear God and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come. Worship the Maker of heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water."

 

[Amy.G]

John MacArthur and Chuck Swindoll are also eschatologically sound :thumbs:

Thanks! I am aware of JM's views, but I've not read Chuck Swindoll's. I'll check him out.

I hope you all understand that I am not advocating any particular view. I just want to understand, if that's even possible. I surely don't think it's something that should divide us. :saint:

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

Thanks Ed and Marcia. I have always been taught the pre-trib view, but to my shame I have never studied it out for myself. I have determined to do just that recently, hence all my questions.

I know God put it in His book for us to learn and understand, so that is what I'm trying to do.

I love Kay Arthur. I will check into her books on the subject. :thumbs:

Thanks to all who have responded to my questions. :godisgood:

God's best to you as you study. I, too, was always taught the pre-trib, pre-mill view of the end times. I had no idea that there were even other views out there.

Unfortunately, many churches do that -- and not only on this subject. It's not that they only teach "their side" of the issue (of course they should), but they act like that other views don't even exist. I think that really does a disservice to their congregants. Instead, I think a much better approach is to share the other views and then explain why their view is the best/correct interpretation. (Of course, I'm not talking about the essentials of the faith.)

 

[Amy.G]

God's best to you as you study. I, too, was always taught the pre-trib, pre-mill view of the end times. I had no idea that there were even other views out there.

Unfortunately, many churches do that -- and not only on this subject. It's not that they only teach "their side" of the issue (of course they should), but they act like that other views don't even exist. I think that really does a disservice to their congregants. Instead, I think a much better approach is to share the other views and then explain why their view is the best/correct interpretation. (Of course, I'm not talking about the essentials of the faith.)

You have hit the proverbial nail on the head. I would like to hear all the different views and biblical support for each view.
Unfortunately, the majority of responses I've gotten have been of the pre-trib views that I have always been taught.
I had no idea that this subject was so unstudied. And I include myself in that statement. I think it's important to study all views (with prayer) and not be intimidated by what we find. This is the only way I know of to get to the truth.

Please feel free to share your views with me and all others who are reading.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Quote:
"I would like to hear all the different views and biblical support for each view. "

GE:
It's impossible. So you'll never come to a certain persuasion.

My advice - if asked - would be only what I have experienced myself - Learn from the Bible and the Bible only, then / while checking whether YOU / I are / am right against the reformers and puritans - those who only in history, have made or revealed the difference between error and truth.
Next, ask the all important question: Which is the simplest 'doctrine' and relies on faith most of all rather than ingenious inventions of men's own minds.

And the outcome as sure as you live shall be one: A-millennianism.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I always found secondary questions, like, The advent of Christ must mean the end of all sin and issues of sins. ONLY A-millennianism is able to accommodate that condition. All the other 'pre-mil', 'post-mil', 'pre-mil-trib' and stuff just cannot help but prolong and extend sin and sin-issues .... ad infinitum, and divest Christ in his return of the power and authority to amke and end or new beginning properly. I get VERY impatient with such feeble ignorant attempts at a better solution than God's solution to the sin-problem.

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

Quote:
"I would like to hear all the different views and biblical support for each view. "

GE:
It's impossible. So you'll never come to a certain persuasion.

My advice - if asked - would be only what I have experienced myself - Learn from the Bible and the Bible only, then / while checking whether YOU / I are / am right against the reformers and puritans - those who only in history, have made or revealed the difference between error and truth.
Next, ask the all important question: Which is the simplest 'doctrine' and relies on faith most of all rather than ingenious inventions of men's own minds.

And the outcome as sure as you live shall be one: A-millennianism.

Even though GE and I agree on the topic, I kindly disagree on this -- instead, I recommend that you read other viewpoints as well -- staying of course within the bounds of orthodox (small "o") Christianity. Read what other men & women of God believe (and why). Once I started reading, I was simply amazed at the divergent beliefs out there -- by sincere, Bible believing Christians. There's a lot more out there than Hal Lindsey.
God's best, FOS

 

[BobRyan]

Even though GE and I agree on the topic, I kindly disagree on this -- instead, I recommend that you read other viewpoints as well -- staying of course within the bounds of orthodox (small "o") Christianity. Read what other men & women of God believe (and why). Once I started reading, I was simply amazed at the divergent beliefs out there -- by sincere, Bible believing Christians. There's a lot more out there than Hal Lindsey.
God's best, FOS

Seems to me that the Bible is pretty clear --

Jesus is REAL - we see Him in Rev 19

The second coming is real -- we see it in Rev 19.

The 1000years is REAL -- we see it in Rev 20

The lake of fire and GWT judgment is REAL - we see it too in Rev 20

And Matt 24 is clear "AFTER the tribulation of those days" he gathers his elect to himself.

With the Bible so clear - Where is the confusion?:thumbs:

in Christ,

Bob