The 1000 years

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I happen to be one of the pre-tribbers who believe there will be a chance to repent...albeit with a huge price (martyrdom). Unless one is a calvinist, and believes the Gospel can be preached to people who have not been given the ability to repent and be saved, the following is quite powerful:

2Pe 3:9 (HCSB)The Lord does not delay His promise, as some understand delay, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance.

Rev 14:6 (HCSB)Then I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, having the eternal gospel to announce to the inhabitants of the earth--to every nation, tribe, language, and people.
Rev 14:7 He spoke with a loud voice: "Fear God and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come. Worship the Maker of heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water."

GE:
Why would the 'second coming of Christ' not answer these Scriptures fully and finally? The 'eternal Gospel' has been proclaimed since God announced it in Eden, and the same one shall be proclaimed until Jesus returns again.

So what 'CHANCE' are you talking about? We have ALL had our 'chance' in Adam and spoiled it thoroughly so that anyone saved from among the gross of us the lost, shall be saved by grace. That's no 'chance' to be saved, that's to be saved, brother!

 

[webdog]

GE:
Why would the 'second coming of Christ' not answer these Scriptures fully and finally? The 'eternal Gospel' has been proclaimed since God announced it in Eden, and the same one shall be proclaimed until Jesus returns again.

So what 'CHANCE' are you talking about? We have ALL had our 'chance' in Adam and spoiled it thoroughly so that anyone saved from among the gross of us the lost, shall be saved by grace. That's no 'chance' to be saved, that's to be saved, brother!

The "chance" I'm speaking of is after the rapture, pre-tribulation. The Gospel will continue to be preached during the tribulation period, and people will still be coming to Christ.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

There is no such thing as a 'rapture' in the Scriptures. So there can be no 'tribulation' for the saved after Jesus will have come. WHEN He comes again, ALL the dead shall be raised -

“The First Resurrection Thousand Years”

Resurrection, Saints and Wicked​

The Saints –

Their Past:

in Revelation 20:4c –
“They lived / came to life”-‘edzehsan’

parallel with their Past

in John 5:24-25c –
“Now” ... “they shall live”- ‘dzehsohsin’

(“Blessed and holy he that hath Part In The First Resurrection – on such the second death hath no power ...” Rv20:6a)

Their Future:

in John 5:28-29a =
“The hour is coming in which all the dead that are in the graves shall hear His Voice, and shall come forth: They that have done good, unto the resurrection of Life”

parallel with their Future

in Revelation 20:7-15 –
“And when the thousand years were expired ... I saw a white throne and Him that sat upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away ... I saw the dead stand before God; and the books were opened. And another Book was opened, The Book of Life ... the sea gave, and hell delivered up the dead ... and the dead were judged ... according to their works” ...


The Wicked –

“The rest of the dead”, ‘on such as the second death hath power...”, Rv20:7-10, 14-15 –

Their Past:
in Revelation 20:5a –
“They lived not”-‘ouk edzehsan’

parallel with their Past

in John 5:24-25 –
They had no Part In The First Resurrection. Omission; they had no part in Jn5:24-25. No parallel found!

Their Future:

in John 5:28-29b –
“The hour is coming in which all the dead that are in the graves shall hear His Voice, and shall come forth ... they that hath done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

parallel with their Future

in Revelation 20:7-15,
“And when the thousand years were expired ... I saw a white throne and Him that sat upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away ... I saw the dead stand before God; and the books were opened. And another Book was opened, The Book of Life ... the sea gave, and hell delivered up the dead ... and the dead were judged ... according to their works ... And whosoever was not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire ... And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.” “After this I saw a new heaven and a new earth.”

 

[Amy.G]

The "chance" I'm speaking of is after the rapture, pre-tribulation. The Gospel will continue to be preached during the tribulation period, and people will still be coming to Christ.

Who is going to preach the gospel when all that are left behind are unbelievers?

 

[webdog]

Who is going to preach the gospel when all that are left behind are unbelievers?

The two witnesses, the 144k and the angel in Rev. 14:6, and those saved by the preaching of all three. You have to remember, all media, Bibles, literature are not raptured along with believers.

 

[webdog]

There is no such thing as a 'rapture' in the Scriptures. So there can be no 'tribulation' for the saved after Jesus will have come. WHEN He comes again, ALL the dead shall be raised -

“The First Resurrection Thousand Years”​

Resurrection, Saints and Wicked

​

The Saints –

Their Past:

in Revelation 20:4c –
“They lived / came to life”-‘edzehsan’

parallel with their Past

in John 5:24-25c –
“Now” ... “they shall live”- ‘dzehsohsin’

(“Blessed and holy he that hath Part In The First Resurrection – on such the second death hath no power ...” Rv20:6a)

Their Future:

in John 5:28-29a =
“The hour is coming in which all the dead that are in the graves shall hear His Voice, and shall come forth: They that have done good, unto the resurrection of Life”

parallel with their Future

in Revelation 20:7-15 –
“And when the thousand years were expired ... I saw a white throne and Him that sat upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away ... I saw the dead stand before God; and the books were opened. And another Book was opened, The Book of Life ... the sea gave, and hell delivered up the dead ... and the dead were judged ... according to their works” ...


The Wicked –

“The rest of the dead”, ‘on such as the second death hath power...”, Rv20:7-10, 14-15 –

Their Past:
in Revelation 20:5a –
“They lived not”-‘ouk edzehsan’

parallel with their Past

in John 5:24-25 –
They had no Part In The First Resurrection. Omission; they had no part in Jn5:24-25. No parallel found!

Their Future:

in John 5:28-29b –
“The hour is coming in which all the dead that are in the graves shall hear His Voice, and shall come forth ... they that hath done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

parallel with their Future

in Revelation 20:7-15,
“And when the thousand years were expired ... I saw a white throne and Him that sat upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away ... I saw the dead stand before God; and the books were opened. And another Book was opened, The Book of Life ... the sea gave, and hell delivered up the dead ... and the dead were judged ... according to their works ... And whosoever was not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire ... And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.” “After this I saw a new heaven and a new earth.”

Well, I believe in the "blessed hope", and the rapture as outlined in 1 and 2 Thessalonians. The rapture will have occured well before Rev. 20, btw.

 

[Amy.G]

The two witnesses, the 144k and the angel in Rev. 14:6, and those saved by the preaching of all three. You have to remember, all media, Bibles, literature are not raptured along with believers.

Oops. I forgot about those.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

webdog:
"the rapture as outlined in 1 and 2 Thessalonians."

GE:
It is not; such thing is not mentioned in any one or more words "in 1 and 2 Thessalonians".
You won't find the idea of a 'rapture' in Christian thought before the nineteenth century, [inflammatory language deleted]
It since has become [inflammatory language deleted], that wars against all Christian Faith of the past.

You are being taken along with it [personal attack removed]
The Word of God says, "He shall not come to again deal with sin" --- everybody will have had his 'chance' to speak in your idiom, when Christ shall have come again and ALL the dead shall be raised --- [questioning of one's salvation is against BB]

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Amillennialism, itself is a simple position that, it teaching: There are two peoples on earth - Saved and Unsaved. When Jesus will come. He will judge all-Saved on His right hand, unsaved on his left side. The righteous will enter eternal life. The wicked will go enter eternal punishment.

I do not believe Jesus gave complex and deep teaching to his disciples, such as - Matthew chapter 13; Matthew chapter 24-25; John 5:27-29; 6:39,40,44,54('last day'), etc. I believe Christ gave simple and clear teaching, so, that, He wants disciples and all Christians to understand his teachings.

I have been read several amill sites. I feel that one amill site is very clear and simple. So, I would like you to read site - http://www.angelfire.com/nt/theology/Amil.html

It is good. I like it.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[webdog]

webdog:
"the rapture as outlined in 1 and 2 Thessalonians."

GE:
It is not; such thing is not mentioned in any one or more words "in 1 and 2 Thessalonians"....
You won't find the idea of a 'rapture' in Christian thought before the nineteenth century,
It since has become ... that wars against all Christian Faith of the past.
You are being taken along with it...
The Word of God says, "He shall not come to again deal with sin" --- everybody will have had his 'chance' to speak in your idiom, when Christ shall have come again and ALL the dead shall be raised ...

You won't find "The Trinity" in any portion of Scripture, yet we know that is true. The argument the phrase "the rapture" is not found is a strawman. What is your source the rapture was not taught before the 19th century? I hear that false argument quite often with no sources suppporting it. It is clear Paul teaches a rapture in both his letters to the Thessalonians, so that is WAY before the 19th century.

If I'm not mistaken, you have questioned my salvation, which is against BB rules. I would suggest you do not continue doing so. I AM sure which resurrection I will partake in, and one's eschatalogical view does not determine this. I would hope you would understand that.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Now that you cannot present Scripture, you resort to irrelevant comparisons.
And besides, it is your opinion that "You won't find "The Trinity" in any portion of Scripture". There to the contrary IS NTHER way than 'in the Scriptures' to "know that is true".

What surprises me most is that arguments like yours and argumentors like you always just assume something false or weak about some basic doctrines of the Christian Faith so absolutely proven through thousands of years by the very best of Christian intelectuals and spritual integrity, and try to make others feel as though they agree with you that these doctrines are unsure.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Webdog:
"If I'm not mistaken, you have questioned my salvation, which is against BB rules. I would suggest you do not continue doing so. I AM sure which resurrection I will partake in, and one's eschatalogical view does not determine this. I would hope you would understand that."

GE:
My remark, "You are being taken along with it into an abyss of darkness - not up into the light and life of the second coming.
The Word of God says, "He shall not come to again deal with sin" --- everybody will have had his 'chance' to speak in your idiom, when Christ shall have come again and ALL the dead shall be raised --- beware of which resurrection you shall partake --- NOW!" --- if that is what you are alluding to, Has been put forward by me as an argument of the sort of a-millennianism - that "Today, if you hear His Voice, harden not your heart." Nothing of it was aimed at you, Webdog, in person.

[personal attack removed. Questioning one's salvation is against BB rules]
GE you would do well to refrain from such posting.

 

[Amy.G]

Here's a little information that might help us to understand the different end times views. This information comes from my book entitled "Rose Book of Bible Charts, Maps and Time lines. Great book by the way!

Historic Pre-mil (Covenant Pre-mil)
The earliest view held by early church fathers, Lactantius (AD 240-320), Irenaeus (AD 130-200), Justin Martyr (AD 100-165), and probably Papias (AD 60-130), a disciple of the apostle John.

Events in order:
Church age
tribulation (the church remains during this)
second coming of Christ
millennium
eternity

Dispensational Pre-mil
This view emerged in the 1800's among Plymouth Brethren and was/is held by John Nelson Darby, C.I. Scofield, Harry Ironside, Gleason Archer, Donald G. Barnhouse, Hal Lindsey, Chuck Smith, John MacArthur, Charles Ryrie, Charles Stanley, Norman L. Geisler, and Tim LaHaye.

Events in order:
Church age
rapture
tribulation
second coming
millennium
final judgment
eternity

A-mil
This view became popular in the fifth century and held by Martin Luther, John Calvin, J.I. Packer. Many A-mils believe Augustine was the first A-mil.
Events in order:
Church age/millennium/tribulation at the same time
second coming and final judgment
eternity

Post-mil
This view became popular in the 19th century and was held by Eusebius and Athanasius, Jonathan Edwards, Charles Spurgeon, and R.C. Sproul.

Events in order:
Church age (society gradually improves)
tribulation
millennium
second coming and final judgment


For the first 5 centuries of the church, the Historic Pre-mil view was held. Why should we change? Shouldn't we trust the early church fathers, since many of them studied under the apostles themselves?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Webdog:
"If I'm not mistaken, you have questioned my salvation, which is against BB rules. I would suggest you do not continue doing so. I AM sure which resurrection I will partake in, and one's eschatalogical view does not determine this. I would hope you would understand that."

GE:
My remark, "You are being taken along with it into an abyss of darkness - not up into the light and life of the second coming.
The Word of God says, "He shall not come to again deal with sin" --- everybody will have had his 'chance' to speak in your idiom, when Christ shall have come again and ALL the dead shall be raised --- beware of which resurrection you shall partake --- NOW!" --- if that is what you are alluding to, Has been put forward by me as an argument of the sort of a-millennianism - that "Today, if you hear His Voice, harden not your heart." Nothing of it was aimed at you, Webdog, in person.

[personal attack removed. Questioning one's salvation is against BB rules]
GE you would do well to refrain from such posting.

GE:
I'll try my best. I apologise unconditionally.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Here's a little information that might help us to understand the different end times views. This information comes from my book entitled "Rose Book of Bible Charts, Maps and Time lines. Great book by the way!

Historic Pre-mil (Covenant Pre-mil)
The earliest view held by early church fathers, Lactantius (AD 240-320), Irenaeus (AD 130-200), Justin Martyr (AD 100-165), and probably Papias (AD 60-130), a disciple of the apostle John.

Events in order:
Church age
tribulation (the church remains during this)
second coming of Christ
millennium
eternity

Dispensational Pre-mil
This view emerged in the 1800's among Plymouth Brethren and was/is held by John Nelson Darby, C.I. Scofield, Harry Ironside, Gleason Archer, Donald G. Barnhouse, Hal Lindsey, Chuck Smith, John MacArthur, Charles Ryrie, Charles Stanley, Norman L. Geisler, and Tim LaHaye.

Events in order:
Church age
rapture
tribulation
second coming
millennium
final judgment
eternity

A-mil
This view became popular in the fifth century and held by Martin Luther, John Calvin, J.I. Packer. Many A-mils believe Augustine was the first A-mil.
Events in order:
Church age/millennium/tribulation at the same time
second coming and final judgment
eternity

Post-mil
This view became popular in the 19th century and was held by Eusebius and Athanasius, Jonathan Edwards, Charles Spurgeon, and R.C. Sproul.

Events in order:
Church age (society gradually improves)
tribulation
millennium
second coming and final judgment


For the first 5 centuries of the church, the Historic Pre-mil view was held. Why should we change? Shouldn't we trust the early church fathers, since many of them studied under the apostles themselves?

GE:
I agree, provided we limit the 'Church fathers' to the first century for REAL 'reason why'. Because I still maintain a-mil is the ONLY Scriptural --- exclusively.

 

[BobRyan]

You won't find "The Trinity" in any portion of Scripture, yet we know that is true. The argument the phrase "the rapture" is not found is a strawman. What is your source the rapture was not taught before the 19th century? I hear that false argument quite often with no sources suppporting it. It is clear Paul teaches a rapture in both his letters to the Thessalonians, so that is WAY before the 19th century.

The rapture is seen clearly in 1Thess 4 where the saints are caught up in the air to meet the Lord and as we are promised in John 14 are then taken WITH Christ to be WITH Him in His Father's house -- in heaven - Where HE has been preparing a place for us.

We are "gathered together to him" at that point.


On that we can agree completely.


My only argument is that the event takes place at the FIRST resurrection which as we see in Rev 19 and 20 is a Post-TRIB event.

Matt 24 also points to our gathering together to him as being "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days".

So -- rapture is real, resurrection is real, 2nd coming is real, and millenium is REAL.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Amillennialism, itself is a simple position that, it teaching: There are two peoples on earth - Saved and Unsaved. When Jesus will come. He will judge all-Saved on His right hand, unsaved on his left side. The righteous will enter eternal life. The wicked will go enter eternal punishment.

Yes but it ignores the 1000 years that comes before the casting of the wicked into the Lake of Fire.

Rev 19 - second coming
Rev 20 - first resurrection (resurrection of the saints and rapture)
Rev 20 - 1000 years
Rev 20 - wicked raised to life - Great White Throne Judgment -
Rev 20 - Lake of Fire

I have been read several amill sites. I feel that one amill site is very clear and simple. So, I would like you to read site - http://www.angelfire.com/nt/theology/Amil.html

It is good. I like it.

I thought there was some kind of rule here where you and I always agreed - :thumbs: :1_grouphug: guess not.:tonofbricks:


In Christ
Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

BobRyan:
"The rapture is seen clearly in 1Thess 4 where the saints are caught up in the air to meet the Lord "

GE:
Wrong, and not true, but false:
First: I will not tire to say it: There does not exist the concept or word of a 'rapture' "in 1Thess 4".
Two: It does not say "the saints are caught up in the air". You show it me! It says: "the saints are seized together in clouds to meet THE LORD in the air." It's two differences of a world's difference you 'rapturists' refuse to acknowledge because it simply spells the end of your rapturous adventures.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Bob Ryan:
"Yes but it ignores the 1000 years that comes before the casting of the wicked into the Lake of Fire."

GE:
It does not 'ignore' it! "The First Resurrection Thousand Years"="The Thousand Years First Resurrection"=ONE AND THE SAME! This is the Greek; this is the literal; this is the idiomatic; this is the ONLY correct!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

BobRyan:
"Rev 20 - wicked raised to life - Great White Throne Judgment":

GE:
False! False! False! You show me in 'Rev 20' "wicked raised to life".
You show me in 'Rev 20' the wicked ONLY raised;
You show me in 'Rev 20' "wicked raised to life"!

On the contrary:
The dead are judged according to the books, inter alia, "the book of life" - so the dead of this book too, are raised, at the end of the Thousand Years. "ALL the dead" are 'given' from the dead; that means the saved as well.

Two: The wicked are NEVER said to be raised "to life"! They are always said to be raised "from the grave" into "everlasting condemnation".

Three: The last verse of Rv20 describes death and hell ITSELF thrown into the lake of fire; here an end is made of it as though death and hell is the part of the wicked: "They had no part in the First resurrection" -- of life -- ever!