Featured The Abomination Of Desolation

“What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.” Ecc 1:9

There are elements of Antichrist in Nero, but he was merely a prefigurement of the future final Antichrist of prophecy.

In these prefigurements, we get a clearer picture of what the future Antichrist will be like.

Scripture has many recurring narratives in it.

 

Rev 11:15 doesn't say "1,000 years". However, I think you could be right. They do both seem to describe the kingdom of God, which will last forever.

 

Agreed. However, that doesn't change the fact that AD 70 was judgement on Israel that brought about the end of the old covenant.

Each of us have posted things to prove our case many times, and neither of us is going to budge. Clearly, we are at an impasse.

In Daniel 12:11, the AOD could be either "set up" or "put in place". In either case, this doesn't necessarily mean a statue. The Roman army was put in place in AD 70, which definitely fulfilled Daniel 11:31.

No, I look back to the original language. If the word is "oikumene" (also translated as "the land"), I see where else this word is used. The context and other uses tell us the meaning - e.g. "the land" of the Roman empire.

I just believe Gentry over you. I believe Jesus over everyone else.

Of course I check out Scripture and history for myself. That is why I am so convinced of the truth of Preterism.

Rev 8:8 was fulfilled in AD 70. In your zeal to interpret everything in Revelation literally, you fail to recognize symbolic prophecies.

 

Or our impasse will continue until you accept the undeniable facts that have been presented that prove Preterism.

"The land" wouldn't make sense unless it referred to specific land - i.e., the Roman Empire or Israel.

As an honorable man of God, you would never state something you just made up. However, I believe you don't understand prophetic Scripture as well as you think. While you recognize some symbolism, you fail to recognize a lot of it, so you try to make impossible events to be literal.

Again, I take the words of Jesus over all others. Partial Preterist (Gentry, DeMar, et al) understand what Jesus said, and what prophecy actually points to - and it's not the "futurist" fantasies that you are stuck on. I compare everything I read or hear to Scripture. The "Futurist" view doesn't pass the "truth" test. Admittedly, there are some issues I have questions about in the Preterist view, but I know the view well enough to trust that it's true.

 

Keeping in mind that most of Revelation is a vision, why do you insist that symbolic "pictures" are to be taken literally?

To turn this around, why do you believe Darby, Scofield, Missler, et al? Those who teach the "Futurist" view change the meaning of what Jesus and the prophets said. You insist that "this generation" means "that generation"; "soon" means "quickly", "near" means "certain", "at hand" means "will be at hand". Yet, Preterists are accused of not taking the Bible literally. The truth is that it's Futurists who do not take Scripture literally. We also recognize a lot of symbolic language in the Old Testament, and know that it's perfectly logical to see the same type of symbolic language in the New Testament.

I'm sure you've studied Revelation many times, and I assure you that I have too. Long before I switched to the Preterist view, I already believed the fantastic imagery in Revelation was symbolic. As you stated earlier, a symbol points to something greater than itself, which I've always agreed with. DeMar and Gentry showed me what the symbols in Revelation, the Olivet Discourse, etc. point to.
You are stuck on the detail of when the Beast and False Prophet were thrown alive into the Lake of Fire. I don't know the details well enough to provide a solid answer. However, I know that everything else in Revelation is centered around the Jewish Wars and the AD 70 destruction of Jerusalem. I don't have to change language or invent a gap between Daniel's 69th & 70th Weeks to find it. Truthfully, I'm not worried about that detail, as I am sure the Holy Spirit will reveal it to me eventually, just as He has revealed the proper way to study Biblical prophecy.

No disrespect intended, but from my perspective, it's those who cling to the Futurist view in the face of such overwhelming evidence of the Preterist view who are truly foolish and blind.

 

That's one of your favorite defenses, but it really isn't true. History and Scripture prove Preterism. The only safety net for Futurism is that we can't "disprove" something that is supposedly in our future. It's just as much fantasy as Star Trek. Entertaining, but fictitious.

Quite the opposite. Revelation is a series of visions of events which would destroy the world if they were literally true. Scripture records the miracles of Balaam's donkey, resurrection of Lazarus, etc. The sun didn't just appear to temporarily reverse its course, but literally happened. None of those events were visions, but are Biblical history. Prophecy is filled with symbolic language. We know that God never literally rode a cloud (Isaiah 19:1). God doesn't literally have chariots like a whirlwind (Jer 4:13). The moon has never literally become blood (Joel 2:31) On the last one, even you admit this probably means that it just looked like blood. I disagree, but the point is that we both know this did not literally happen.

Prophecy books are big sellers for Christians. We could say the same for LaHaye, Hitchcock, and lots of others. Would you say the same regarding any other authors when they write books concerning doctrines which you disagree with? Are you opposed to all Christian authors writing commentaries to support their views, or just the views you disagree with?

I notice you avoid the issue of how Futurists change the meaning of words to make them fit your viewpoint. Did the Holy Spirit tell you to believe Chuck Missler and Mark Hitchcock over what the Scripture actually says? I just turn your arguments around.

The fact that all you've seen is eisegesis, opinion, & guesswork is because that's all you choose to see. I'm sure we would probably agree on most other doctrines, but we will always disagree on our views of eschatology. I doubt you will ever change your view, and I assure you that I am 100% convinced of the Partial Preterist view.

 

This is why private interpretation always turns into tribal legalism and the truth takes a holiday in the sun until the wrangling stops.

Gentlemen, consider both and.

Look at types, contexts and prefigurements together and you will see elements of both. Both future events and prefigurements taken place in times past.

 

Thank you for your input, Brother. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you are suggesting that we look for elements of truth in both views. That could be a problem, because these views are opposed to each other, and I don't believe they will have a double fulfillment.

While @robycop3 and I have always disagreed regarding the End Times, I don't believe either of us is legalistic about our views. Each of us take a different interpretation of the Scriptures in our pursuit of truth. We both recognize Antiochus IV Epiphanes as a "type" of Abomination of Desolation.

For my part, I had believed in the future fulfillment of these prophecies from the time I was saved (1978) until about 15 years ago. I believe I have studied and analyzed that view quite extensively, and I'm convinced it is wrong for reasons that I've posted. I'm not sure what else to do about our different views, as both cannot be right.

 

When interpretations are in contest, there is always legalism over words.

There is no doubt that Nero was Antichrist in type, like types before and types after. But there will be a final embodiment of Antichrist before the Kingdom of the Divine Will Reigns on earth as it is in Heaven.

Look at all the prefigurements in scripture before we see the actual figure emerge.

One figure will embody them all.

Moses, Elijah, David were prefigurements of Christ, not perfect prefigurements, as none are, but glimpses of the final figure of Christ.

So with Antichrist we see those prefigurements even in recent history.

Look to see who the Jews do accept as the Messiah, one who will come in his own name. This will be the man of sin, the figure of sin, the final figure of lawlessness.

The Jews did not accept Nero the prefigurement, but they will accept the Messianic figure that finally comes in his own name.

I know you are well studied brother, but do not take a hard position lest you do not see the recurring prophetic nature of Scripture.

The conclusions of lawyers can sometimes be far from the truth. We can win arguments in our heads that have no part with the truth.

So I only say, be open to a possibility, allow that “ we’ll see “ possibility.

At least have the wisdom of Gamaliel, if our interpretation of future events is false, it will fall to nothing. But if our interpretation is true, then there is nothing stopping those events from coming to pass.

Allow a possibility in God’s hands and God’s timing. The “ We’ll see” possibility.

 

Look at the Plagues of Egypt and the Plagues of the Apocalypse using typological analysis. Prefigurements, not perfect prefigurements. Pharaoh being the figure of Antichrist.

Every move of Pharaoh brings about the counter move of God.

In each type believers see a more complete final figure of Antichrist.

The parting of the Red Sea and God’s powerful deception, so the unrighteous are destroyed.

In typology we see scripture open up in many, many ways not seen before. Scripture has many depths.

 

I suggest that one should not take such a "hard stand" that these events must be in our future that you overlook even considering the evidence that they were fulfilled in the past.

I'm open to that idea as long as you are just as open to the possibility that these events were fulfilled in the past. We will probably never know for sure this side of Heaven.

I can appreciate Gamaliel's argument. Our views will not change what has been nor what will be. Having said that, we should not shy away from making our case for our views. I do not begrudge my brothers for teaching what they believe is true, and I hope to receive the same courtesy. After all, this is not an issue where the wrong view will cost one's salvation.

 

Rather than re-hash all the points again, I will just suggest that you pray and closely study Biblical prophecy. I mean REALLY study, without wearing your preconceived "Futurist" glasses that insist everything be interpreted literally and you can change the meaning of "time indicator" words and phrases. Poor interpretation of Scripture and wild speculation are what brought about the whole "Futurist" views of the"End Times".

 

Very good brother. You know, I believe these events were fulfilled in the past in prefigurement if you look at so many types throughout the ages. This is where people get caught up.

Pharaoh, Nebuchadnezzar, Antiochus Epiphanes, Nero, Khan, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, believers are given these as examples of what to look for so believers can recognise the final Antichrist figure that embodies them all and beyond.

The last Antichrist will be a messianic figure that will capture the heart of billions, but will have an element of all the prefigurements. After he is destroyed, then the Sabbath rest .

 

The idea that they had already been fulfilled had never occurred to me until around 15 years ago. However, I was willing to look into the claims of Preterism. If I had been as good a student of history as you are, I would have known about the Jewish Wars and the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 long ago. As it was, I only learned of this history as I studied the claims of Preterism. I was surprised to learn that the prophecies about the AOD, the Beast and the Great Tribulation were judgment on Israel. Furthermore, I learned that Jesus only "came" in the sense that He brought judgment on Israel. This is similar to how God "came" in judgment on nations in the Old Testament. After a lot of prayer and extensive study of prophecies, I realized the claims of Preterism are true.

The subject of this thread is the AOD, so I will make one more point. When talking to His disciples about these events, including the AOD, He made a reference to Daniel's prophecies. Jesus described how the one who studies Daniel will recognize the AOD. When we compare Daniel 11:31 with Luke 21:20, we see this literally fulfilled. Furthermore, when we compare Luke 21:20 with Matthew 24:15, we see this is about the same thing. When I compared Scripture with Scripture, it all became clear.

 

I am glad we can disagree on this and remain civil. Scripture is inspired, but our interpretations of Scripture are not. I must admit that I do wonder when governments talk about putting a chip into the hands of their citizens so they can prove they have been vaccinated against COVID-19. I could not obey such a command, as it's too similar to the mark of the beast in Revelation.