The Age of Accountability

[Matt Black]

Originally posted by John Gilmore:
koreahog,

10. The jailer and all his household were baptized, "having believed in God with his whole household" (Acts 16:34). The Bible doesn't specify the ages of those in his household, but they all believed in God.

Or "believing in God with all his house." KJV Those who follow a theology of no infant faith or baptism, infant faith but no baptism, or no infant faith but baptism, must conclude that there were no infants in the house. Those who follow a theology of infant faith and baptism admit the possibility of infants in the house.

 

[Matt Black]

John, Koreahog's is a better translation of this passage from the Greek than the KJV
Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[Matt Black]

Originally posted by John Gilmore:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Matt Black:
I didn't think this would descend to a lecture on the English language, but so be it!

'Repent' and 'believe' are ACTIVE verbs - they require action on the subject's part.

'I am' and 'be blessed' are PASSIVE verbs requiring no action on the subject's part

Yours in Christ

Matt

I don't want to get into English grammer either. Scripture makes it clear that man's role in salvation is purely passive. 2 Tim. 1:9. So verbs such as hear, believe, repent, be baptized, be born again, etc. must be understood in their passive sense. </font>[/QUOTE]

 

[John Gilmore]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
John, Koreahog's is a better translation of this passage from the Greek than the KJV
Yours in Christ

Matt

The KJV makes more sense. Joy comes from a current not a past faith.

 

[Matt Black]

Still inaccurate though...

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[Eric B]

Calvinists stray into Arminian territory and deny monergism when they say that man cooperates to obtain faith after the initial jump start (regeneration). Regeneration and faith occur simultaneously without the cooperation of man.

And Calvinists, at least the ones here, have agreed with that. They do not say man "cooperates", but that faith/repentance comes to them upon regeneration.

Where did Jesus proclaim the Good News of salvation by faith in Christ to the man? Jesus knew the thoughts of the man. The man wanted to judged by the law. Jesus showed him how he could inherit eternal life by keeping the law perfectly.

OK, I think you're right. I must have missed the context (was reading through a lot when I compiled the quotes). The point was making faith in Christ apart of the "Law". I am aware He was preaching the Law proper to the man for the reason you elaborated.

Another example is when the Jews who had been pricked in their heart asked, "What must we do?" Peter did not tell them to do anything, "Repent and be baptized."

So verbs such as hear, believe, repent, be baptized, be born again, etc. must be understood in their passive sense.

OK, where according to monergism, "hear", "believe", "repenmt", and "be born again" are things that just "come to" a person when he is suddenly, unconditionally "regenerated". But baptism, even in that passive sense, does not just happen to someone, instantly. One has to go and be baptized. And go down into the water with the baptizer.
—Unless of course, you understand the saving act of baptism as the spiritual baptism "by one Spirit into one body" (the conversion itself, by which you become apart of the Body of Christ) instantly upon regeneration.

 

[Matt Black]

Re your last paragraph, I agree completely. I fail to see how John can argue that 'baptise', 'repent' and 'believe' are passive. They all require human choice as a prerequisite: I chose to be baptised; no-one jumped me and forcibly dunked me. Similarly, I choose whether or not to believe Bush and Blair over the existence of WMDs in Iraq.

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[koreahog2005]

“having believed in God” (Acts 16:34, NASV)

“pepisteukos” in Greek

“pepisteukos” is a perfect active participle – “having believed”

 

[koreahog2005]

A couple of quotes to clarify the perfect active participle (“having believed”) used in Acts 16:34:

The Perfect Tense describes an action, or more correctly a process, that took place in the past, the results of which have continued to the present. It has no exact equivalent in English, but is usually translated by using the auxillary verbs “has” or “have.”

(Spiros Zodhiates, The Complete Word Study New Testament, page 867)

So, the joy and belief started in the past and continues in the present.

The Participle is a verbal adjective. As such, the participle may function as a verb, noun, or adjective in the sentence.

(Zodhiates, page 867)

 

[koreahog2005]

It's bedtime in Korea.

 

[John Gilmore]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
Re your last paragraph, I agree completely. I fail to see how John can argue that 'baptise', 'repent' and 'believe' are passive. They all require human choice as a prerequisite: I chose to be baptised; no-one jumped me and forcibly dunked me. Similarly, I choose whether or not to believe Bush and Blair over the existence of WMDs in Iraq.

Yours in Christ

Matt

But you are assuming free choice (or, the politically correct term, "free agency"). If free will is dead, then what I believe either comes from God or it comes from Satan. Belief is passive because there is no active will.

 

[Matt Black]

Yes, I freely chose to get baptised. And?

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[John Gilmore]

Similarly, there is no free choice in baptism. Either I believe God and desire baptism or I believe Satan and refuse baptism (or accept it for evil purposes). The little children who believe God desire baptism. Baptism is passive because there is no active will either to receive baptism or reject baptism.

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

Night...

 

[Matt Black]

Er...I know for sure that I freely chose baptism. And newborn infants can neither believe or desire baptism

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[koreahog2005]

The Active Voice represents the action as being accomplished by the subject of the verb.

(Zodhiates, page 862)

The Greek language is pretty precise. If the Bible says a person believes, then it is clear that the person is the one who is performing the action, i.e. believing. God gives us the ability to believe when we are under the special conviction of the Holy Spirit, but we are the ones who believe. If we are not the ones who believe, then the Bible would have described things differently. For instance, rather than saying, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved," Acts 16:31 would say, "Wait until God gives you belief, and you will be saved." Rather than saying, "Repent," Acts 2:38 would say, "Wait until God gives you repentance." Getting back to the topic of this thread, I've never seen an instance in the Bible where infants believe or repent.

 

[Matt Black]

Here, here. What Peter and Paul should have said in order to fall into line with John's soteriology is "You don't do anything to be saved. That's up to God. If He wants to save you, He will, if He doesn't, well, bad luck because it means for some reason that He doesn't really like you and there's nothing you can do about that."

Fortunately for us, and unfortunately for John, that wasn't the answer given

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[John Gilmore]

Matt Black,

[God] will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 1 Tim. 2:4.

koreahog,

Scripture does not say, "Wait until God gives you belief" because we are not saved because of any action on our part including patience. Salvation is purely passive. As 1 Cor. 4:7 states, "For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory as if thou hadst not received it?."

But some people do wish to glory as if salvation was their free choice. They reject scripture passages that teach infant faith (the ones I have already referenced). Infant faith destroys their glorying in their intellectual decision.

I reject and condemn as nothing but error all dogmas which extol our free will, as they directly conflict with this help and grace of our Savior Jesus Christ. For since outside of Christ, death and sin are our lords, and the devil our god and prince, there can be no power or might, no wisdom or understanding, whereby we can qualify ourselves for, or strive after, righteousness and life; but we must be blinded people and prisoners of sin and the devil's own, to do and to think what pleases them and is contrary to God and His commandments.Martin Luther

[ September 08, 2004, 05:51 AM: Message edited by: John Gilmore ]

 

[Matt Black]

So you're a universalist now?

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[John Gilmore]

Matt Black,

No, the reason few are chosen, although all are in unbelief and God will have all to be saved, is not revealed to us. Rom. 11:33.