The Antichrist - Revealed Before Or After The Rapture?

[Palatka51]

Observations:

1. These are believers who died during the tribulation period.

2. They came from all nations, not just Israel.

So you are now saying that there is another way to salvation than by grace?

Again this is against Biblical teaching. By grace alone can man be saved. This is the way it has ever been. All that say that Israel is saved and the nations that endure tribulation are outside the Church if the Church is removed before the great tribulation.

Now let's address the use of the word "crap". Is this a Philadelphian response? If I am in error surely one would use more brotherly words to teach and exhort.

What's "crap" is to think the church will be subject to God's wrath]

Yes! But saying that God will pull the Church out of the world is giving Satan the victory over the Church. That is a bunch of crap to be blunt. The Church will be on earth until Jesus Christ returns at which time there will be a general resurrection and judgment, Satan and his followers will be cast into the lake of fire, and the redeemed will enter the New Heavens and earth to dwell with the Triune God throughout eternity.
Yesterday 08:26 PM

Gentlemen, May I humbly be wrong in my studies, for your sakes. I sincerely pray that the Lord will show me where I am. However, it seems that the Word just completely opens up from beginning to end.

Jesus said that it would be as it was in Noah's day. How was it then?

Noah was harassed then when the Ark was finished (the object of the grace of God's salvation) Noah was called into it. As soon as Noah was told to go in to it, God shut the door. No more refuge of grace and all flesh died in the earth under the wrath of God. Genesis, chapters 6-8.

Lot was called out of Sodom just as the fire came and destroyed all the cities of the plain. The citizens of the city sought to do harm on Lot and the Angels. Genesis chapter 19.

22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot’s wife.

In both cases few were removed before wrath was brought. In the pre-trib scenario it is as if the whole world is taken in the rapture. When in actuality few will be. Not because many will be lost but that those, that did not fall away, have been killed for their faith in Christ.

Remember Lot's wife? Many will fall away just as God is removing His Church from this world. How will this happen? Many will have been so trusting in a pre-trib rapture that they will feel as though Jesus has left them. Then in blind helplessness turn toward a false salvation in the Beast.

In both cases no one was saved after the saint was removed. Pre-tribbers believe that there will be multitudes saved after the Church is removed. However the Word tells us that none will repent.

10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

God even puts an Angel in the air to preach the gospel but no one repents.

No one not no one will be saved out of the wrath of God.

If I have therefore placed the Word of God in association with "crap" then He will be my judge and I know just how terrible that is. Meanwhile I will accept any apologies from any one of you that thinks this is "crap." Else if in the case that this servant is not in error then the word "crap" becomes someones self judgment. raying: raying: raying: raying:

 

[Palatka51]

The "gates" which Jesus mentioned refers to siege weapons that were called "gates".

These "gates" were huge stairways, on wheels, that would be rolled up to a wall of a city. Once close, the "gate" at the top would open and the invading army would pour in.

If you watched the movie "The Lord of the Rings, the Return of the King", you will remember the siege of the great city. You will also remember the huge staircases that were pushed up to the walls to allow the invading army to enter.

That is a siege "gate", and that is the kind of gate Jesus was referring to when He said the "gates of hell" shall not prevail against the church.

Hope that helps

peace to youraying:

And in that movie were not the citizens removed into the keep to be kept safe while their saviors met the battle with fearlessness? Then Gandolf rode in on a white horse and vanquished the foes. The gates did not complete their purpose and as thus did not prevail.

Thanks for the correction and for the grace you used to do so. :thumbs:

Your Brother in Christ;

Mel

 

[Allan]

The "gates" which Jesus mentioned refers to siege weapons that were called "gates".

These "gates" were huge stairways, on wheels, that would be rolled up to a wall of a city. Once close, the "gate" at the top would open and the invading army would pour in.

If you watched the movie "The Lord of the Rings, the Return of the King", you will remember the siege of the great city. You will also remember the huge staircases that were pushed up to the walls to allow the invading army to enter.

That is a siege "gate", and that is the kind of gate Jesus was referring to when He said the "gates of hell" shall not prevail against the church.

Hope that helps

peace to youraying:

Sorry JD but you are absolutely WRONG on this.

There is no lexicon that I can find which translates the Greek word "pylē" as a siege engine of any type. It is what it is - a 'gate'. This passage can be seen and is so in two different ways.
1. The gate of hell not prevailing against the building of Christ's Church is that Hell's gates can not hold on to it's prisoners that Christ calls out and into Himself.

2. Is still similar in meaning but that nothing that comes from out of Hell's gates can stop the salvation of it's prisoners that they come out of it and into Christ.


What you are refering to is actaully called a "seige tower" or a "beffroy" or also spelled "belfry" which is what it was called in the middle ages.

 

[Allan]

oops......

 

[Me4Him]

I am sorry, but that is just not Biblical. If you are without chastisement then you are a son void of love from his father.
Rev 3:19
19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Keep it in context, the church doesn't suffer the chastisement of the Tribulation period, one reason for the Pre trib rapture.

 

[Me4Him]

Me4Him: // http://www.daysofgod.com //

those charts are probably in the BB archives

the best place to find them would be in Google

Check my eschatology over here:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1338967#post1338967

You and I are pretty much in agreement, except for the following, if I'm reading you correct.

The third 'Kingdom of God' is the Millennial Messianic Kingdom with three different groups:

1. unsaved temporal bodies of gentile kingdoms selected in the Sheep & Goats judgment to remain on Earth

When Jesus returns to sit up the MK only the "LIVING" (wheat/tare) are judged/separated,

the "GOATS" stay dead and are not "resurrected" to stand Judgment until the GWT.


Only at the GWT are "GOATS" resurrected to stand in Judgment along with "SHEEP". (from the MK) (Sheep and Goat Judgment)

 

[canadyjd]

So you are now saying that there is another way to salvation than by grace?

Again this is against Biblical teaching. By grace alone can man be saved. This is the way it has ever been. All that say that Israel is saved and the nations that endure tribulation are outside the Church if the Church is removed before the great tribulation.

First of all, I have no idea how you come to the conclusion that I am saying there is another way to heaven other than grace.

Secondly, you are ignoring what the passage says. Rev. 7:9+ clearly identifies believers who died during the "great tribulation". If your response is, "Well, that can't be true because it conflicts with my understanding and that would mean people are saved contrary to grace..." then may I suggest your understanding is wrong...not scripture.

Now let's address the use of the word "crap". Is this a Philadelphian response?

FTR, I did not use the word.

peace to youraying:

 

[Palatka51]

FTR, I did not use the word.

peace to youraying:

FTR I did not say you did. The two that did were quoted in mine responses to them. You'll note that my reply to you in post #42 was very appreciative.

 

[Me4Him]

First of all, I have no idea how you come to the conclusion that I am saying there is another way to heaven other than grace.

Secondly, you are ignoring what the passage says. Rev. 7:9+ clearly identifies believers who died during the "great tribulation". If your response is, "Well, that can't be true because it conflicts with my understanding and that would mean people are saved contrary to grace..." then may I suggest your understanding is wrong...not scripture. FTR, I did not use the word.

peace to youraying:

Let me ask both you and Palatka51 a question.

Jesus ask: "can you drink of the cup I drink of"???

That cup was his death for our salvation, the same one he ask in the garden to be taken aways from him "if possible".

If being saved meant you had to literally die for Jesus's salvation as he had to die for your salvation,

would you do it???

Because Jesus has already suffer the "Chastisment" of our peace with God we only "Spiritually" crucify the "old man" or "Body of sin", we don't "literally die".

Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed,

Those in the trib will "literal drink of Jesus's cup", that is "literally die" for his salvation as he literally died for their salvation.

This "death of the flesh" is the "STRIPES" from God's "ROD" (AC) of "Chastisment".

Pr 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.

14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

Ps 89:20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:

Ps 89:30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;

31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;

32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.

With the exceptions of John, all of the apostles "literally drank of Jesus cup", or were killed for their belief.

Doesn't Grace mean being saved, regardless of whether we literally/Spiritual "Drank of Jesus's cup"??

 

[canadyjd]

Let me ask both you and Palatka51 a question.

Jesus ask: "can you drink of the cup I drink of"???

That cup was his death for our salvation, the same one he ask in the garden to be taken aways from him "if possible".....Because Jesus has already suffer the "Chastisment" of our peace with God we only "Spiritually" crucify the "old man" or "Body of sin", we don't "literally die"....

.....Those in the trib will "literal drink of Jesus's cup", that is "literally die" for his salvation as he literally died for their salvation.....

.....Doesn't Grace mean being saved, regardless of whether we literally/Spiritual "Drank of Jesus's cup"??

That makes no sense whatsoever and has nothing to do with the conversation.

peace to youraying:

 

[Ed Edwards]

I respond to #41 above at:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=54854&page=8

(9 years from being and 'elder') Brother Palatka51 is mentioned both :thumbs: and :tonofbricks:

I also respond to #42 above at the same place.

 

[canadyjd]

Sorry JD but you are absolutely WRONG on this.....

This passage can be seen and is so in two different ways.
1. The gate of hell not prevailing against the building of Christ's Church is that Hell's gates can not hold on to it's prisoners that Christ calls out and into Himself.

2. Is still similar in meaning but that nothing that comes from out of Hell's gates can stop the salvation of it's prisoners that they come out of it and into Christ.

Christ is calling people out of hell to salvation? What? I've never heard of such a thing. Do you mean that you believe people in hell get a chance to be saved?

I had a Greek prof. who was certain that Jesus, in Matt. 16, is referring to a siege tower. He told us that he had researched the word use and that it was common to refer to the towers as "gates" because they were used to breach the walls and enter the cities.

This makes perfect sense, IMHO, that the assault on the Christian Church is like the Roman army siege of a city.

Christ could have said the "hordes of Hell" cannot prevail against the church, or He could have said, "Satan and his demons coming out of hell" cannot prevail against the church, or He could have said, the world cannot prevail against the church.....but He said "the gates of Hell" shall not prevail against the church.

It doesn't make sense to me that gates leading to Hell can make an assault upon the church. How can a "gate" make an assault on the church?

It cannot, unless the "gate" is referring to a siege weapon.

peace to youraying:

 

[OldRegular]

Those in the trib will "literal drink of Jesus's cup", that is "literally die" for his salvation as he literally died for their salvation.

The above states that a person literally dies during the so-called seven year trib for "his" salvation. Please provide an identity for "his".

 

[Allan]

Christ is calling people out of hell to salvation? What? I've never heard of such a thing. Do you mean that you believe people in hell get a chance to be saved?

I had a Greek prof. who was certain that Jesus, in Matt. 16, is referring to a siege tower. He told us that he had researched the word use and that it was common to refer to the towers as "gates" because they were used to breach the walls and enter the cities.

This makes perfect sense, IMHO, that the assault on the Christian Church is like the Roman army siege of a city.

Christ could have said the "hordes of Hell" cannot prevail against the church, or He could have said, "Satan and his demons coming out of hell" cannot prevail against the church, or He could have said, the world cannot prevail against the church.....but He said "the gates of Hell" shall not prevail against the church.

It doesn't make sense to me that gates leading to Hell can make an assault upon the church. How can a "gate" make an assault on the church?

It cannot, unless the "gate" is referring to a siege weapon.

peace to youraying:

Then your Greek Prof. was incorrect in his research. These towers were not 'commonly called "gates",ever. ' it was not until the mid to late middle ages the term even began to be used. Did you Greek Prof. believe the church has always existed? If so then I can understand why he went looking for such a view to accodate this position. However the church was not in existence yet and still to be built.

Secondly, we are all "under" condemnation (though not condemned yet) and thus in a very real sense - in hell/seperated from God. The scriptures declare that we are called from 'darkness' into 'light' from one place or position into another. And no, I did not say nor insinuate that people in hell have a chance to be saved after going there.

However no matter if you agree with the second or not the Greek word here is NOT for a siege engine but is SPECIFIC to a regular common sense understanding of the word 'gate'. Again, this is not any kind of position which can be born out in scripture but brought up only from ones desire to read it into the wording. "Presupposition". As I said there is NO lexicon that agrees with your... prof.

 

[Me4Him]

However no matter if you agree with the second or not the Greek word here is NOT for a siege engine but is SPECIFIC to a regular common sense understanding of the word 'gate'. Again, this is not any kind of position which can be born out in scripture but brought up only from ones desire to read it into the wording. "Presupposition". As I said there is NO lexicon that agrees with your... prof.

Isa 14:17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? (sinners)

I'm in agreement with you.

The "gates of hell" could "correctly" be interpreted as:

Can't stay closed to keep people prisoners of sin. (hell)
Can't capture people back into hell. (OSAS)
Can't harm us "physically" unless God allows it. (Job)
Can't tempt above that we can bear.
Can't deceive.
Can't destroy the church. (body of Christ)
Can't have dominion over us.


"Can't Prevail" renders satan pretty much "helpless".

 

[Me4Him]

The above states that a person literally dies during the so-called seven year trib for "his" salvation. Please provide an identity for "his".

If it's "JESUS CUP" then who do you suppose "HIS CUP" belong too?? :jesus: :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Palatka51]

I recommend brother that you use the phrase 'some pre-tribbers probably believe ... ' when present a strarwman that you know how to burn. Your average for being right would go way up (well, for 'what pre-tribbers believe', not for what you believe )

What I or you believe does not matter. What is to come does. If there is a pre-trib rapture I will be in attendance. Should there not be a pre-trib rapture, I am prepared to suffer and to be caught up in Jesus' time (not mine nor yours).

BTW Ed, I am quoting from the KJV 2nd edition on Parson's Quick Verse 7.0.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by Me4Him

Those in the trib will "literal drink of Jesus's cup", that is "literally die" for his salvation as he literally died for their salvation.

Response by OldRegular
The above states that a person literally dies during the so-called seven year trib for "his" salvation. Please provide an identity for "his".

Response by Me4Him
If it's "JESUS CUP" then who do you suppose "HIS CUP" belong too?? :jesus: :smilewinkgrin:

What you are saying is beyond confusion so I will pose a couple of questions.

1. Are you saying that in the so-called seven year trib a person earns his own salvation by dying.
2. Are you saying that in the so-called seven year trib a person dies for Jesus' salvation?

Either one is nonsense and contrary to all Scripture. If you are implying #2 above that is blasphemous.

 

[Palatka51]

Let me ask both you and Palatka51 a question.

Jesus ask: "can you drink of the cup I drink of"???

That cup was his death for our salvation, the same one he ask in the garden to be taken aways from him "if possible".

If being saved meant you had to literally die for Jesus's salvation as he had to die for your salvation,

would you do it???

Because Jesus has already suffer the "Chastisment" of our peace with God we only "Spiritually" crucify the "old man" or "Body of sin", we don't "literally die".

Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed,

Those in the trib will "literal drink of Jesus's cup", that is "literally die" for his salvation as he literally died for their salvation.

This "death of the flesh" is the "STRIPES" from God's "ROD" (AC) of "Chastisment".

Pr 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.

14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

Ps 89:20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:

Ps 89:30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;

31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;

32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.

With the exceptions of John, all of the apostles "literally drank of Jesus cup", or were killed for their belief.

Doesn't Grace mean being saved, regardless of whether we literally/Spiritual "Drank of Jesus's cup"??

Are there not those that did drink of the cup Jesus drank? All of His disciples but John were martyrs. The Saints of the Church at Jerusalem were put to heavy persecution under Saul. Later Paul suffered for the name of Christ by beheading. Fox's Book of Martyrs gives account after account of the blood of Saints being spilled for the name of Christ. Does that mean they had any less grace than we have today because the suffered? No, they had the same as we.

It is only this generation that thinks they are exempt from any of the same worldly treatment of past generations that walked more closely to Christ than we, who today are walking closer and closer to the world. :tear:

 

[OldRegular]

Are there not those that did drink of the cup Jesus drank? All of His disciples but John were martyrs. The Saints of the Church at Jerusalem were put to heavy persecution under Saul. Later Paul suffered for the name of Christ by beheading. Fox's Book of Martyrs gives account after account of the blood of Saints being spilled for the name of Christ. Does that mean they had any less grace than we have today because the suffered? No, they had the same as we.

It is only this generation that thinks they are exempt from any of the same worldly treatment of past generations that walked more closely to Christ than we, who today are walking closer and closer to the world. :tear:

I agree!:tear: