The Apostle Paul's referenes to Holy Spirit baptism

[DHK]

You focusing on one verse and forcing it to apply to your faith alone presuppositions does not mean that I do not believe what it says, I just do not hold it mean what you assume it means, salvation by faith alone.

Salvation is by faith and faith alone. It always has been. It is never by works. Baptism is a work. As long as you believe that baptism is a requirement for salvation then you believe in a salvation by works, and that the blood of Christ is not sufficient to atone for our sins. You see what aberrant doctrine this is?

Note how Abraham was saved:
Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
--Abraham was saved by faith alone. He believed God, and therefore was made righteous. Not one of his works were attributed to making him righteous, not one. It was his faith alone.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
--The same passage makes it even more clear. Only to the one that believes will he be counted righteous; never to the one who does good works. Baptism is a good work. It has nothing to do with salvation.

Do you hold to the idea that men where saved in a different manner in the O.T. than in the N.T.?

All are saved by faith and faith alone, as demonstrated above.

How about the Apostles who were baptized by John which was a baptism of repentance in water for the forgiveness of sins (Mark 1:4; Luke 3:3

Is it your idea that Peter and John and the rest of the Apostles were all unsaved men following Jesus with the ability to perform miracles at the same time? Only one of the disciples was said to be unsaved, and that is Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition. He was pointed out by Christ himself as unsaved. The baptism of John never saved anyone. Your implication is that Christ was unsaved and needed to be baptized. That is blasphemy, isn't it?
John baptized because they had repented; because they were saved.
The same is true today in the NT church.

Where they saved then or were they not saved until the day of Pentecost when they received the Holy Spirit just as Cornelius did?

They were saved when they believed in Christ by faith. That was before Pentecost. A Jewish festival didn't save anyone. That historical event known as Pentecost was the beginning of the Church Age. At that time the Holy Spirit began to permanently indwell believers. The believers (such as Mary and the apostles) were already saved. Or don't you believe Mary was saved. Was she an unbeliever, JM??

If baptism was not essential for Cornelius why does Peter "COMMAND" them to be baptized?

Because it is a command of Jesus; so is prayer, the Lord's Supper, reading the Bible, searching the Scriptures, etc. All are commands. All are not necessary to salvation.

Since people go two years without being baptized why does Peter make it so important that they obey the "COMMAND" then?

The world was smaller then. The apostles were present right there and then. We have six billion people on this world today, and of the Christians that do disciple others after they are saved, not all of them (if any) are of the same calibre as Peter, James, John or even Paul. So, if a person is not taught in the Scriptures as well as Peter or Paul would have taught them, why are you so judgmental? If a new believer is not baptized right away is it your right to stand in the place of God, and judge that person? That is what the Bible condemns--that judgemental spirit of yours:

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

One scripture does not reveal all there is to know about salvation.

You are the one using just one or two Scriptures while ignoring the totality of Scriptures, the entirety of the teaching of the Bible.

 

[Darron Steele]

You focusing on one verse and forcing it to apply to your faith alone presuppositions does not mean that I do not believe what it says, I just do not hold it mean what you assume it means, salvation by faith alone.

Well, I focus on this verse because it clearly refutes your position. There is a reason you want to get away from it so bad.

There is a reason you want to get away from it. You teach that there is at least one scenario where a believer on Jesus Christ does not receive remission of sins.

If someone was to tell me about a believer on Jesus Christ died without biblical baptism, and asked me if s/he was saved, I would reply "Acts 10:43 says about Jesus Christ `every one that believeth on him receives remission of sins.'" If that same person came to you, you would say the likes of `no.' If s/he repeated that the deceased person was a believer on Jesus Christ, you would still hold that s/he did not receive remission of sins.

Scripture explicitly says about Jesus Christ at Acts 10:43 "every one that believeth on him |receives| remission of sins" (ASV|ESV|ASV). You teach the direct negation: that what this says, is not the case.

Fact is, a statement and its direct negation cannot both be true. Your position is the direct negation of an explicit statement of Scripture. Scripture is true: Acts 10:43 "every one that believeth on him |receives| remission of sins" (ASV|ESV|ASV) -- baptized or not, whatever or not.

Do you hold to the idea that men where saved in a different manner in the O.T. than in the N.T.?

I suppose.

How can one be saved by faith upon Jesus Christ if Jesus Christ had not been born yet? To me, it is a no-brainer.

How about the Apostles who were baptized by John which was a baptism of repentance in water for the forgiveness of sins (Mark 1:4; Luke 3:3).

Yep; the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins -- not baptism for the remission of sins.

Read it: you will see "repentance for the remission of sins” (KJV).

In ancient Judaism, baptism signified conversion. When a man converted to Judaism, he was circumcised. Then, he was baptized. You can read about it in the Talmud. Per Scripture, circumcision made one a Jew.

John called Jews to convert to "repentance for the remission of sins" (KJV).

There is nothing in Scripture that states that unless a person is baptized, s/he will not be saved. You depend upon inference for your teachings. However, your inferences run contrary to a direct statement of Scripture, so they must be in error.

Where they saved then or were they not saved until the day of Pentecost when they received the Holy Spirit just as Cornelius did?

If baptism was not essential for Cornelius why does Peter "COMMAND" them to be baptized? Since people go two years without being baptized why does Peter make it so important that they obey the "COMMAND" then?

Because the Lord ordained baptism of converts.

Do you only do what you have to do in order to be saved -- and nothing else?

Is that the only reason you can imagine to do what the Lord wants -- to get salvation for yourself in exchange?

Have you no concept of doing things to serve Jesus Christ just for the principle of serving Him?

I hope `no' on all of these.

I believe strongly in prompt, unconditional baptism of converts. Still, however strongly I feel about doing baptism the Bible way, I cannot teach things about baptism that are not `square' with Scripture, such as what you teach.

One scripture does not reveal all there is to know about salvation.

Agreed -- but no Scripture can be thrown out either.

That one verse is enough to refute your teaching. There are others, but this one is most direct. If just one verse refutes your teaching, your teaching is refuted.

You teach that there is at least one scenario where a believer on Jesus Christ does not receive remission of sins.

Scripture explicitly says about Jesus Christ at Acts 10:43 "every one that believeth on him |receives| remission of sins" (ASV|ESV|ASV). You teach the direct negation: that this is not the case.

If your position is correct, then the Bible has a direct contradiction within it: it would teach a statement and simultaneously its direct negation. If your position is correct, then the Bible is untrustworthy.

Fact is, a statement and its direct negation cannot both be true. Your position is the direct negation of an explicit statement of Scripture. Scripture is true in every subject is addresses. Scripture says of Jesus Christ at Acts 10:43 "every one that believeth on him |receives| remission of sins" (ASV|ESV|ASV) -- baptized or not, whatever or not.

 

[Olivencia]

JSM17,

The Gentiles were COMMANDED to be water baptized? And you use this as proof they still weren't yet saved?

This has already been addressed here - see #1. In fact, why don't you go through all of them one by one.


http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=58561

 

[JSM17]

The Bible clearly affirms that the only power that can forgive man's sins is the blood of Jesus. His death paid the penalty for our sins (Ephesians 1:7; Romans 5:6-9; Hebrews 9:14; 1 Peter 1:18,19; Rev. 1:5).

Consider a sinner who has never been cleansed by Jesus' blood. If he is to be pardoned, there must be some point at which that cleansing power applies to him personally and forgives him. Something must happen in his life as an essential condition (or conditions) in order for God to grant him forgiveness.

Many Passages Teach We Are Saved by Faith.
John 3:16 - Whoever believes on Jesus should have eternal life.

Romans 1:16 - The gospel is God's power to save all who believe.

Romans 5:1,2 - By faith we are justified and have access to grace.

Ephesians 2:8 - By grace are you saved through faith.

But No Passage Says We Are Saved by Faith Alone.

Some Things that are Essential to Salvation

God's grace (Ephesians 2:4-10; 1:7; Titus 2:11,12; Acts 15:11)

Jesus' death and resurrection (Ephesians 1:7; Romans 5:6-10; 1 Peter 1:18,19; Revelation 1:5; 1 Corinthians 15:17; 1 Peter 3:21)

The gospel (Romans 1:16; 1 Peter 1:23-25; Acts 11:14; James 1:18,21; 1 Corinthians 15:1,2; John 8:31,32)

Learning God's will (Acts 11:14; John 6:44,45; Romans 10:17; 1:16; 1 Corinthians 1:21)

Faith (see the verses listed above)

Love (1 Corinthians 16:22; 13:1-3; Galatians 5:6; 1 John 4:7,8)

Hope (Romans 8:24)

Repentance (2 Corinthians 7:10; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 17:30; Luke 13:3,5; 2 Peter 3:9)

Obedience (Hebrews 5:9; Romans 6:17,18; 1 Peter 1:22; Acts 10:34,35; 2 Thessalonians 1:8,9; Galatians 5:6; James 2:14-26)

Confession of Christ (Romans 10:9,10; Matthew 10:32)

Baptism (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21; Romans 6:3-7; Galatians 3:26,27; Colossians 2:12,13)

Faithfulness (Matthew 10:22; Revelation 2:10; 1 Corinthians 15:58; Matthew 28:20; Titus 2:11,12; 1 John 2:1-6)

Church membership (Acts 2:47; 20:28; Ephesians 5:23,25)

 

[Darron Steele]

...

Some Things that are Essential to Salvation

God's grace (Ephesians 2:4-10; 1:7; Titus 2:11,12; Acts 15:11)

Jesus' death and resurrection (Ephesians 1:7; Romans 5:6-10; 1 Peter 1:18,19; Revelation 1:5; 1 Corinthians 15:17; 1 Peter 3:21)

The gospel (Romans 1:16; 1 Peter 1:23-25; Acts 11:14; James 1:18,21; 1 Corinthians 15:1,2; John 8:31,32)

Learning God's will (Acts 11:14; John 6:44,45; Romans 10:17; 1:16; 1 Corinthians 1:21)

Wow! This last one is a loo-loo.

You know the whole will of God? That is some pretty heady stuff. You know, with you and I being mortals, and God being God, I do not think either you or I can know the whole will of God.

Never mind that some of the passages you cite have nothing about the subjects you allege they do.

For instance, about this latter subject, NOT EVEN ONE of the passages had anything to do with learning God's will, let alone for salvation.

Are you fraudulently citing passages in hopes that the reader will not check? I do not say that lightly, but it looks very suspicious. Are you too unquestioningly referring a list someone else gave you?

Faith (see the verses listed above)

Love (1 Corinthians 16:22; 13:1-3; Galatians 5:6; 1 John 4:7,8)

Hope (Romans 8:24)

Repentance (2 Corinthians 7:10; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 17:30; Luke 13:3,5; 2 Peter 3:9)

Obedience (Hebrews 5:9; Romans 6:17,18; 1 Peter 1:22; Acts 10:34,35; 2 Thessalonians 1:8,9; Galatians 5:6; James 2:14-26)

Confession of Christ (Romans 10:9,10; Matthew 10:32)

Baptism (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21; Romans 6:3-7; Galatians 3:26,27; Colossians 2:12,13)

Faithfulness (Matthew 10:22; Revelation 2:10; 1 Corinthians 15:58; Matthew 28:20; Titus 2:11,12; 1 John 2:1-6)

Church membership (Acts 2:47; 20:28; Ephesians 5:23,25)

You know, I have seen a whole bunch of these.

First of all, you separate obedience, repentance, and faith -- you even separate faithfulness from faith. If believing on Jesus Christ does not automatically include repentance and obedience and faithfulness, then "faith" is meaningless. I will not entertain your cheapening of faith.

As for all of these other passages about specific works beyond faith, NOT EVEN ONE of them says the likes of `unless you get this-or-this done, you will not be saved.'

NOT EVEN ONE says `If a person who believes on Jesus Christ fails to get such-and-such done, then s/he will not receive remission of sins.'

On the other hand, Acts 10:43 explicitly says of Jesus Christ "every one that believeth on him |receives| remission of sins" (ASV|ESV|ASV).

 

[JSM17]

For instance, about this latter subject, NOT EVEN ONE of the passages had anything to do with learning God's will, let alone for salvation.

Learning God's will (Acts 11:14; John 6:44,45; Romans 10:17; 1:16; 1 Corinthians 1:21)

Acts 11:14

14 who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.'
NKJV

Your right, Cornelius did not learn God's will through the preaching of Peter and he certainly did not hear words for salvation.

John 6:44-45

44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
NKJV

Do we learn that it is God's will for Him to draw us to Christ, is coming to Him have anything to do with salvation?

Rom 10:17

17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
NKJV

Rom 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
NKJV

You say that this passage has nothing to do with salvation.

1 Cor 1:21

21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
NKJV

Not only do these passages teach one about the will of God these passages speak about salvation as well, but we will let others see that. They do not need you or me to tell them, they can read them for themselves.

 

[DHK]

Learning God's will (Acts 11:14; John 6:44,45; Romans 10:17; 1:16; 1 Corinthians 1:21)

Acts 11:14

14 who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.'
NKJV

Your right, Cornelius did not learn God's will through the preaching of Peter and he certainly did not hear words for salvation.

John 6:44-45

44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
NKJV

Do we learn that it is God's will for Him to draw us to Christ, is coming to Him have anything to do with salvation?

Rom 10:17

17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
NKJV

Rom 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
NKJV

You say that this passage has nothing to do with salvation.

1 Cor 1:21

21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
NKJV

Not only do these passages teach one about the will of God these passages speak about salvation as well, but we will let others see that. They do not need you or me to tell them, they can read them for themselves.

I didn't know all those Scriptures and/or knowledge before I was saved, and I got saved without that knowledge. So according to you, am I still unsaved?

 

[Darron Steele]

For instance, about this latter subject, NOT EVEN ONE of the passages had anything to do with learning God's will, let alone for salvation.

Learning God's will (Acts 11:14; John 6:44,45; Romans 10:17; 1:16; 1 Corinthians 1:21)

Acts 11:14

14 who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.'
NKJV

Your right, Cornelius did not learn God's will through the preaching of Peter and he certainly did not hear words for salvation.

According to you, we have to learn God's will for salvation.

There is not one verse that teaches that we have to learn the will of God in order to be saved. You quoted it, and there are no words to the effect of what you allege.

It does not say anything like `who will reveal the will of God to you in order that you may do part of what it takes in order to be saved.

It says "who will tell you the words by which you and your household will be saved" (NKJV).

Your other misapplications of Scripture are similar. You claim that they say things they do not.

Interestingly, this account narrates an event. In this event, the sermon included about Jesus Christ "every one that believeth on him |receives| remission of sins" -- Acts 10:43 (ASV|ESV|ASV). This is a teaching that you deny.

No matter how much you unwittingly try to make Scripture appear to contradict itself, it does not. No passage of Scripture teaches the direct negation of Acts 10:43: regarding Jesus Christ "every one that believeth on him |receives| remission of sins" (ASV|ESV|ASV).

 

[JSM17]

So we can all assume that you both came to know what God wanted you to know about salvation and His Son and forgiveness of sins by some other means than by God revealing His will to you through scripture?

Now you say we do not have to strive to understand (learn) God's will.

To believe is to learn to understand his will, I of course never said you have to have a complete understanding.


If you knew anything about God it was because God revealed it to you.

 

[DHK]

So we can all assume that you both came to know what God wanted you to know about salvation and His Son and forgiveness of sins by some other means than by God revealing His will to you through scripture?

Now you say we do not have to strive to understand (learn) God's will.

To believe is to learn to understand his will, I of course never said you have to have a complete understanding.


If you knew anything about God it was because God revealed it to you.

The only thing that "God" revealed to me before I was saved was some simple truths that don't go too much farther than the truths mentioned in John 3:16.
You wrongly infer that one has to master the Bible before he can be saved. If that were the case then heaven will be an empty place, for no one would ever be saved. We are all still learning the Bible, and will never stop learning.
I was saved, and then was not baptized until two years later; but I was still saved nevertheless. I don't submit to your judgment (thankfully) but to God, and to the witness of His Spirit who does witness and has witnessed all this time that I am his child. I have never doubted my salvation.

 

[JSM17]

You wrongly infer that one has to master the Bible before he can be saved.

You show me one post were I said or infer that one has to master the bible before he can be saved, if not then hold your tongue with false accusations.
You assume thats what I believe, but you are wrong.

John 3:16

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
NKJV

If I gave this verse and only this verse to people who do not even know that there is a God they could not be saved with this verse alone apart from other scripture. You assume that all people who even read scripture have proven to themselve that it is even infallible.

Know you sound like those "All I need is John 3:16" people, how lame.

 

[Darron Steele]

According to you, we have to learn God's will for salvation.

There is not one verse that teaches that we have to learn the will of God in order to be saved. You quoted it, and there are no words to the effect of what you allege.

It does not say anything like `who will reveal the will of God to you in order that you may do part of what it takes in order to be saved.

It says "who will tell you the words by which you and your household will be saved" (NKJV).

Your other misapplications of Scripture are similar. You claim that they say things they do not.

Interestingly, this account narrates an event. In this event, the sermon included about Jesus Christ "every one that believeth on him |receives| remission of sins" -- Acts 10:43 (ASV|ESV|ASV). This is a teaching that you deny.

No matter how much you unwittingly try to make Scripture appear to contradict itself, it does not. No passage of Scripture teaches the direct negation of Acts 10:43: regarding Jesus Christ "every one that believeth on him |receives| remission of sins" (ASV|ESV|ASV).

So we can all assume that you both came to know what God wanted you to know about salvation and His Son and forgiveness of sins by some other means than by God revealing His will to you through scripture?

Now you say we do not have to strive to understand (learn) God's will.

To believe is to learn to understand his will, I of course never said you have to have a complete understanding.


If you knew anything about God it was because God revealed it to you.

No; I did not have to "strive" to understand God's will about salvation.

It is not hard. The Bible refers to the process of salvation, from the human end, being very simple. The Bible refers to "the simplicity and the purity that is toward Christ” (ASV) at 2 Corinthians 11:3.

Now, if your position is correct, we have no reason to trust the Bible about salvation. You teach that if a person who believes on Jesus Christ fails to be baptized, then s/he will be unsaved.

That position would require this: `NOT everyone that believeth on Him receives remission of sins.'

The Bible says of Jesus Christ "every one that believeth on him |receives| remission of sins" (ASV|ESV|ASV) at Acts 10:43.

If your position is correct, then this portion of Scripture is bogus, and we have no reason to trust Scripture. I reject the latter premises.

I learned about salvation in one sitting with the Scriptures. I did not have to "strive" to learn about salvation; I just had to read it.

It says of Jesus Christ at Acts 10:43 "every one that believeth on him |receives| remission of sins" (ASV|ESV|ASV). It is quite simple to me.

 

[DHK]

You show me one post were I said or infer that one has to master the bible before he can be saved, if not then hold your tongue with false accusations.
You assume thats what I believe, but you are wrong.

John 3:16

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
NKJV

If I gave this verse and only this verse to people who do not even know that there is a God they could not be saved with this verse alone apart from other scripture. You assume that all people who even read scripture have proven to themselve that it is even infallible.

Know you sound like those "All I need is John 3:16" people, how lame.

I can expound from that verse what one needs to know in order to be saved. There is not much more beyond that one verse that a person needs to be saved. I didn't say that all that I have to do is quote that verse; but rather expound or explain the truths behind that verse. One preacher preached every Sunday morning for an entire year on John 3:16. Its truths are plenteous.

However you said in a previous quote:

Some Things that are Essential to Salvation

God's grace (Ephesians 2:4-10; 1:7; Titus 2:11,12; Acts 15:11)

Jesus' death and resurrection (Ephesians 1:7; Romans 5:6-10; 1 Peter 1:18,19; Revelation 1:5; 1 Corinthians 15:17; 1 Peter 3:21)

The gospel (Romans 1:16; 1 Peter 1:23-25; Acts 11:14; James 1:18,21; 1 Corinthians 15:1,2; John 8:31,32)

Learning God's will (Acts 11:14; John 6:44,45; Romans 10:17; 1:16; 1 Corinthians 1:21)

Faith (see the verses listed above)

Love (1 Corinthians 16:22; 13:1-3; Galatians 5:6; 1 John 4:7,8)

Hope (Romans 8:24)

Repentance (2 Corinthians 7:10; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 17:30; Luke 13:3,5; 2 Peter 3:9)

Obedience (Hebrews 5:9; Romans 6:17,18; 1 Peter 1:22; Acts 10:34,35; 2 Thessalonians 1:8,9; Galatians 5:6; James 2:14-26)

Confession of Christ (Romans 10:9,10; Matthew 10:32)

Baptism (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21; Romans 6:3-7; Galatians 3:26,27; Colossians 2:12,13)

Faithfulness (Matthew 10:22; Revelation 2:10; 1 Corinthians 15:58; Matthew 28:20; Titus 2:11,12; 1 John 2:1-6)

According to your post one needs to be faithful in order to be saved. It is an essential. Let's just examine one verse out of that list. (Mat.28:20)

Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

There is no false accusation here.
What did you say to me:
Here it is again:

You show me one post were I said or infer that one has to master the bible before he can be saved, if not then hold your tongue with false accusations.
You assume thats what I believe, but you are wrong.

No, you are wrong. You have said that a person has to know all things that Jesus has commanded the disciples to teach in order to be saved. One has to master the NT in order to be saved. The NT must be absolutely mastered, especially the direct teachings of Jesus, if you want to take that verse absolutely literal. But in application it means the teachings of the entire NT. You have said it yourself. It is necessary to master the teachings of the NT (to have faithful obedience) before one can be saved. This is from your quote. You have placed this as a requirement under the label of:
Some Things that are Essential to Salvation

That is not what the Bible teaches!!

 

[JSM17]

No, you are wrong. You have said that a person has to know all things that Jesus has commanded the disciples to teach in order to be saved. One has to master the NT in order to be saved. The NT must be absolutely mastered, especially the direct teachings of Jesus, if you want to take that verse absolutely literal. But in application it means the teachings of the entire NT. You have said it yourself. It is necessary to master the teachings of the NT (to have faithful obedience) before one can be saved. This is from your quote. You have placed this as a requirement under the label of:
Some Things that are Essential to Salvation

Nice strawman! You really knocked him down good.

Sorry I did not say that one "has to know all things that Jesus has commanded the disciples to teach in order to be saved" .

I said that faithfulness is essential for salvation.

 

[DHK]

Nice strawman! You really knocked him down good.

Sorry I did not say that one "has to know all things that Jesus has commanded the disciples to teach in order to be saved" .

I said that faithfulness is essential for salvation.

Which according to the verses that you quoted in support of faithfulness (Mat 28:20--"observing all things whatsoever I have taught you"), requires a knowledge of all things that Christ has taught. You have stated that one must have a knowledge of all things that Christ has taught in order to be saved. There is no getting around that. That is what your post teaches.

 

[JSM17]

Which according to the verses that you quoted in support of faithfulness (Mat 28:20--"observing all things whatsoever I have taught you"), requires a knowledge of all things that Christ has taught. You have stated that one must have a knowledge of all things that Christ has taught in order to be saved. There is no getting around that. That is what your post teaches.

requires a knowledge of all things that Christ has taught.

I did not say this you did. Now you are putting words into my mouth.

Is there no faithfulness in coming to salvation? YOU SAY NO, I SAY YES.

You can keep pointing to the post and saying I said this or that but I am telling you thats not what I said and the readers can see as well that I did not. Swatting at Gnats.

Here is DHK's attempt to make something out to be that which it is not:

According to your post one needs to be faithful in order to be saved. It is an essential. Let's just examine one verse out of that list. (Mat.28:20)

Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

There is no false accusation here.
What did you say to me:
Here it is again:
Quote:
You show me one post were I said or infer that one has to master the bible before he can be saved, if not then hold your tongue with false accusations.
You assume thats what I believe, but you are wrong.

I said show me one post were I said one must master the bible before he can be saved, he thinks that he has shown you one above, but I said no such thing. Instead of showing you a post where I state that one has to master the bible he shows you part of a post that says that one must learn to be faithful in order to be saved.

Once again I said learning or being faithful is essential to salvation. Nobody said anything about Mastering, can we move on.

 

[DHK]

Once again I said learning or being faithful is essential to salvation. Nobody said anything about Mastering, can we move on.

For an unsaved person this is impossible. For one to be faithful in order to be saved is an impossibility. When he hasn't even heard the gospel yet how can he be faithful to it? You have a religion of works and not of grace.

 

[JSM17]

For an unsaved person this is impossible. For one to be faithful in order to be saved is an impossibility. When he hasn't even heard the gospel yet how can he be faithful to it? You have a religion of works and not of grace.

To obey that in which God commands in order to receive salvation is faithfulness.

We obey from the heart.

Rom 6:17

17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.
NKJV

Were they saved before they were delivered? Did they need to be faithful to the doctrine that delivered them?

You have a religion of dead faith.

 

[Darron Steele]

Posted to DHK:

...
You have a religion of dead faith.

This is a personal insult.

As I assume you know, the term "dead faith" refers to James 2:26 "As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead” (TNIV). James 2 is a popular passage in the Churches of Christ, most commonly cited for self-congratulation and to revile `denominationalists' with the false accusation of teaching easy-believism. You being a Church of Christ polemicist, I think I am safe in assuming that you are well acquainted with the passage.

Basically, you just accused DHK of being someone who claims to be a believer on Jesus Christ but does nothing consistent with that claim.

These are strong words, especially coming from someone like you, who has insisted that a person can believe on Jesus Christ without repenting. If anyone has made faith on Jesus Christ into something meaningless, it is you.

Fact is, you have opened yourself up for personal criticism in BIG ways. I have shown you an explicit statement of Scripture that eliminates any possibility that believers on Jesus Christ can be unsaved: Acts 10:43 has "every one that believeth on him |receives| remission of sins" (ASV|ESV|ASV). I have stuck that verse in front of you persistently, and for all your attempts to
a) divert attention from that passage,
b) create apparent contradictions in Scripture,
that passage still does not go away. It is still brazenly obvious that your view is the direct negation of this explicit statement of Scripture. If I was to be reckless, I could easily accuse you of deliberately rejecting Scripture just because you do not want to concede being wrong. However, I have not done so, because I am giving you the benefit of the doubt, and continuing to assume you genuinely do not see the direct contradiction of your view with this explicit statement of Scripture. Before you again succumb to temptation toward personal attacks on `denominationalists,' you should remember the quiet courtesies that you have received here.

I cannot imagine what has possessed you to come to a board whose predominant membership is Baptists, and try to convince Baptists that they need to be baptized. To be a member of a Baptist congregation, you have to be baptized properly, that is, by immersion and as believers. Therefore, posting thread after thread telling Baptists that they need to be baptized seems like lunacy.

The Churches of Christ generally encourage a desire to debate outside church groups, and congratulate each other every time some member shares a `new' strategy. If you want a real challenge, try debating members of church groups that do not believe that the Bible way to do baptism is the only valid way to do baptism. I suspect you are here to argue because you want to argue with a group that has views about baptism similar to yours, and to have pride in `how well I am doing.'

However, please do not let your frustrations with debate lead you to personal insults. Fact is, DHK gave a valid criticism of your church group's teachings on salvation, which you also hold. I still spend time with the Churches of Christ, and his observation is very often correct. Religious precepts are things; people are people. For his legitimate criticism of your church group's teachings, you replied with a personal insult.

DHK and I do not agree on everything. In fact, I bet there are more than a few things we disagree over. However, I cannot imagine daring to allege that in his life, he does nothing consistent with faith on Jesus Christ.

There is no place for that sort of reckless accusation among any who would serve Jesus Christ. He called us to better, and there is no partiality with Him. If you cannot debate us without indulging in this sort of personal insult, please move on for both our benefit and yours.

 

[JSM17]

Rom 6:17

17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.
NKJV

Were they saved before they were delivered? Did they need to be faithful to the doctrine that delivered them?