The Apostle Paul's referenes to Holy Spirit baptism

[Darron Steele]

I thought a different translation might help clarify this matter.

Rom 6:16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed,
Rom 6:18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. (ESV)​

So, JSM17, I see you are back.

Just out of curiosity: did you make any effort to debate those who do not adhere solely to believer's baptism by immersion?

 

[JSM17]

Just out of curiosity: did you make any effort to debate those who do not adhere solely to believer's baptism by immersion?

I have spoken with these people in the past, I use to be one myself.

Did you miss me? I have been dealing with life apart from the forums, but I missed them, so I thought I would drop back by. I tried to set aside my views on baptism and to view it through the eyes of many other people and I just cannot see it.

Baptism in water is for the remission of sins. We are buried in baptism into the LORD'S death, we are buried, sins are forgiven by the blood which was shedd on the cross in His death. We are raised to a newness of life by the Spirit of GOD.

It is not by baptism alone, and baptism is not a work in which man came up with to merit salvation.Even Martin Luther figured this out. The man that said we are saved by faith alone could see that obeying baptism fro the forgiveness of sins did not remove faith in salvation.

 

[DHK]

It is not by baptism alone, and baptism is not a work in which man came up with to merit salvation.Even Martin Luther figured this out. The man that said we are saved by faith alone could see that obeying baptism fro the forgiveness of sins did not remove faith in salvation.

Document your information concerning Martin Luther, otherwise they are just baseless ramblings. Luther believed no such thing, unless you are referring to his beliefs when he was still an unsaved Catholic. Is that the belief you are referring to?
Here is what Luther wrote in his preface to the Book of Romans:

In chapters 1 to 3, St. Paul has revealed sin for what it is and has taught
the way of faith which leads to justice. Now in chapter 4 he deals with
some objections and criticisms. He takes up first the one that people raise
who, on hearing that faith make just without works, say, “What? Shouldn't
we do any good works?” Here St. Paul holds up Abraham as an example.
He says, “What did Abraham accomplish with his good works? Were they
all good for nothing and useless?” He concludes that Abraham was made
righteous apart from all his works by faith alone. Even before the “work”
of his circumcision, Scripture praises him as being just on account of faith
alone (cf. Genesis 15). Now if the work of his circumcision did nothing to
make him just, a work that God had commanded him to do and hence a
work of obedience, then surely no other good work can do anything to
make a person just. Even as Abraham's circumcision was an outward sign
with which he proved his justice based on faith, so too all good works are
only outward signs which flow from faith and are the fruits of faith; they
prove that the person is already inwardly just in the sight of God.

(Master Christian Library. "Preface to the Book of Romans," Martin Luther. p. 11.)

Baptism is an outward sign. He explains that in chapter six. It is well known that Luther preached and taught that a man is justified by faith and faith alone.

 

[JSM17]

affirm that Baptism is no human trifle, but that it was established by God Himself. Moreover, He earnestly and solemnly commanded that we must be baptized or we shall not be saved. No one is to think that it is an optional matter like putting on a red coat. It is of greatest importance that we hold Baptism in high esteem as something splendid and glorious. The reason why we are striving and battling so strenuously for this view of Baptism is that the world nowadays is full of sects that loudly proclaim that Baptism is merely an external form and that external forms are useless.... Although Baptism is indeed performed by human hands, yet it is truly God’s own action (1978, pp. 98-99).

But our know-it-alls, the new spirit people, claim that faith alone saves and that human works and outward forms contribute nothing to this. We answer: It is of course true that nothing in us does it except faith, as we shall hear later. But these blind leaders of the blind refuse to see that faith must have something in which it believes, that is, something it clings to, something on which to plant its feet and into which to sink its roots. Thus faith clings to the water and believes Baptism to be something in which there is pure salvation and life, not through the water, as I have emphasized often enough, but because God’s name is joined to it.... If follows from this that whoever rejects Baptism rejects God’s word, faith, and the Christ who directs us to Baptism and binds us to it (1978, pp. 101-102).

Luther, Martin (1978), Luther’s Large Catechism, (Saint Louis, MO: Concordia).


In the second place, since we know now what Baptism is, and how it is to be regarded, we must also learn why and for what purpose it is instituted; that is, what it profits, gives and works. And this also we cannot discern better than from the words of Christ above quoted: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. Therefore state it most simply thus, that the power, work, profit, fruit, and end of Baptism is this, namely, to save. For no one is baptized in order that he may become a prince, but, as the words declare, that he be saved. But to be saved. we know. is nothing else than to be delivered from sin, death, and the devil, and to enter into the kingdom of Christ, and to live with Him forever.

But if they say, as they are accustomed: Still Baptism is itself a work, and you say works are of no avail for salvation; what then, becomes of faith? Answer: Yes, our works, indeed, avail nothing for salvation; Baptism, however, is not our work, but God's (for, as was stated, you must put Christ-baptism far away from a bath-keeper's baptism). God's works, however, are saving and necessary for salvation, and do not exclude, but demand, faith; for without faith they could not be apprehended. For by suffering the water to be poured upon you, you have not yet received Baptism in such a manner that it benefits you anything; but it becomes beneficial to you if you have yourself baptized with the thought that this is according to God's command and ordinance, and besides in God's name, in order that you may receive in the water the promised salvation. Now, this the fist cannot do, nor the body; but the heart must believe it.

The Large Catechism
by Martin Luther
Translated by F. Bente and W.H.T. Dau
Published in:
Triglot Concordia: The Symbolical Books
of the Ev. Lutheran Church
(St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1921)
pp. 565-773

 

[Darron Steele]

Written originally to JSM17

If you want a real challenge, try debating members of church groups that do not believe that the Bible way to do baptism is the only valid way to do baptism. I suspect you are here to argue because you want to argue with a group that has views about baptism similar to yours, and to have pride in `how well I am doing.'

After his hiatus, I wrote

Just out of curiosity: did you make any effort to debate those who do not adhere solely to believer's baptism by immersion?

I have spoken with these people in the past, I use to be one myself.

Did you miss me? I have been dealing with life apart from the forums, but I missed them, so I thought I would drop back by. I tried to set aside my views on baptism and to view it through the eyes of many other people and I just cannot see it.

Baptism in water is for the remission of sins. ...

We share a similar experience.

I looked at the common Church of Christ view -- which is yours -- in December 1998. I even almost became convinced to it, but then realized something.

Here is what I realized: if the Bible teaches both
1) we are saved "through faith" and "not of works" (KJV) as Ephesians 2:8-10 teaches, and
2) that no one is saved until after s/he has completed the work of baptism,
then the Bible contradicts itself, and cannot be believed.

I realized that one of those premises could not be what the Bible teaches, or I would be better off not bothering with the Bible anymore. After research, I found that the Bible teaches #1 only after all, and that my trust in the Bible was not misplaced.

 

[DHK]

JSM17,
I would suggest to you that either Luther's comments were taken out of context, or more probably that his views changed over time. For the two passages obviously contradict each other and cannot be reconciled. When Luther was excommunicated from the RCC, he was still a Catholic. But over time his views changed. It seems apparent that his epistle to the Romans was one of his later works. The great thesis of Luther was that a man was justified by faith and not by works. This is what he is known for. So convinced was he of this truth that he wanted to exclude the Book of James from the canon of Scripture. Baptism is a work of man, not of God. Man does it; man receives it. It is a work that man does. What happens when one is baptized? He gets wet. That is all. H2O has nothing to do with salvation. It never has. Take heed from the words of Jeremiah.

Jeremiah 2:22 For though thou wash thee with nitre, and take thee much soap, yet thine iniquity is marked before me, saith the Lord GOD.

 

[JSM17]

Here is what I realized: if the Bible teaches both
1) we are saved "through faith" and "not of works" (KJV) as Ephesians 2:8-10 teaches, and
2) that no one is saved until after s/he has completed the work of baptism,
then the Bible contradicts itself, and cannot be believed.

I realized that one of those premises could not be what the Bible teaches, or I would be better off not bothering with the Bible anymore. After research, I found that the Bible teaches #1 only after all, and that my trust in the Bible was not misplaced.

I agree with Number one: We are saved by grace through faith, that not of ourselves. Not of works of merit.
Number two suggests that Baptism is the will of man a work unto man's pride and accomplishment. Luke 7:30 tells us different. Even those who refused the baptism of John were refusing the will of God. Johns baptism was ofr the remission of sins as well. Were those who were baptized by John clean after baptism? Were the sin actually forgiven at baptism? How does this compare to baptism today. If it is just getting wet then why did the Lord mke such a big deal out of it and why was Paul told to be baptized washing away his sins?

Baptism does not reject Ephesians 2:8, 9. You make Ephesians 2:8, 9 reject baptism.

 

[DHK]

Baptism does not reject Ephesians 2:8, 9. You make Ephesians 2:8, 9 reject baptism.

"Not of works"
Baptism is a work of man.

 

[Darron Steele]

We share a similar experience.

I looked at the common Church of Christ view -- which is yours -- in December 1998. I even almost became convinced to it, but then realized something.

Here is what I realized: if the Bible teaches both
1) we are saved "through faith" and "not of works" (KJV) as Ephesians 2:8-10 teaches, and
2) that no one is saved until after s/he has completed the work of baptism,
then the Bible contradicts itself, and cannot be believed.

I realized that one of those premises could not be what the Bible teaches, or I would be better off not bothering with the Bible anymore. After research, I found that the Bible teaches #1 only after all, and that my trust in the Bible was not misplaced.

I agree with Number one: We are saved by grace through faith, that not of ourselves. Not of works of merit.

Sorry, but the text does not have "of merit" -- you are adding to the Word, to use terminology you are familiar with.

Let me show you the necessary implication of your proposed addition up to 2:10:

`for by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works of merit, so that no one may boast himselfe. For in Christ Jesus, God made us new people unto good works of merit, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.'​

If your addition is valid, then God has "ordained" works whereby we can claim merit before Him.

Luke 17:10 shows that we will never have reason to boast of our own merits before the Lord. Therefore, your proposed addition is invalid.

The Bible says at Ephesians 2:8-10

“for by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may |boast himselfe. For |in Christ Jesus, God made us new people| unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them” (ESV|GenB|ICB|KJV).​

In this passage, "works" means exactly that -- "works" period. The passage should be taken at face value.

Baptism does not reject Ephesians 2:8, 9. You make Ephesians 2:8, 9 reject baptism.

I most certainly do not. The fact that Scripture teaches "by grace are ye saved, through faith" and "not of works" (KJV) does not eliminate our obligation to be baptized.

The idea so common in the Churches of Christ `If baptism does not cause us to be saved, then there is no reason to do it' is an unfortunate attitude. The attitude is `We will only do what we have to do to get salvation for ourselves.' This is a sad attitude.

We ought to do as the Lord called us to do out of desire to see Him served. The attitude ought to be `Lord, what would you have me do to please you?'

Ephesians 2:8-10 just makes it clear what does, and does not, cause us to be saved.