The Arminian Dilemma

[Skandelon]

Where there is no condemnation by sin there is no need of a Savior, an Atonement, the Cross or salvation.

Biblicist. Can you actually respond to my words instead of just saying the same stuff over and over while ignoring my posts, please?

Can you tell me what you mean by condemned:

Option 1: "In hell already or certainly bound for an eternal hell"
Option 2: "Bound to hell unless justified by grace through faith."

Thank you in advance for your clear and honest reply to this request.

 

[The Biblicist]

I don't even think you realize what you are claiming! This is the giving of the Ten Commandments as the OLD COVENANT. Israel in this same chapter has entered into this COVENANT relationship with God claiming they can do, keep the OLD COVENANT. You are arguing that fallen man CAN keep the Old Covenant for justification beause any man that can KEEP this covenant IS justifiied before God.

However, the scripture writers repudiate your claim:

Jn. 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?


Ac 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Rom. 3:19 ¶ Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

However, your interpretation of Deuteronomy 5 and similiar texts demands the very opposite as anyone capable of keeping the law IS justified in His sight.

Readers, this is what Arminians are forced to do to avoid this dilemma. They are force to embrace justification by works of the law which is a complete repudiation and denial of Jesus Christ and the cross.

Not one has been able to provide any evidence to overturn this OP. Romans 8:7-8 demands INABILITY to please God for all who are "in the flesh" as those "in the flesh CANNOT please God."

Winman has shot a hole in his own foot by admitting that all "in the flesh CANNOT please God" and thus every NARRATIVE illustration he provides to prove the contrary only proves his interpretation is false.

Van, is forced to embrace justfication by works to avoid the OP.

Skan, must repudiate the necessity of the cross as he denies any condemnation previous to salvation, thus gutting justification, and mercy and salvation of any meaning or necessity.

 

[The Biblicist]

Biblicist. Can you actually respond to my words instead of just saying the same stuff over and over while ignoring my posts, please?

Can you tell me what you mean by condemned:

Option 1: "In hell already or certainly bound for an eternal hell"
Option 2: "Bound to hell unless justified by grace through faith."

Thank you in advance for your clear and honest reply to this request.

To reduce ourselves to this, is so absurd that I can hardly believe you are sincere but only seeking an avenue of escape. But, I will answer you, but not by the abritrary options you provide which by design and wording is to force your own preconceived conclusion.

Your options are trying to force the definition of "condemnation" to be restricted only to ultimate or final consequences.

However, before anyone is actually condemned to hell they are FIRST condemned by the law as sinners and consequentially condemned to be worthy of the wrath BEFORE made subject to eternal wrath. Hell is the final aspect of condemnation due to previously being condemned as a sinner and worthy of such wrath.

Eph. 2:2 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.:

Wrath was justifed before we were saved! Wrath cannot be justified without first due process of law and condemnation under Law. That wrath is based upon mankinds violation of Genesis 2:17 as one human nature acting in unision in ONE MAN.

 

[preacher4truth]

Not one has been able to provide any evidence to overturn this OP. Romans 8:7-8 demands INABILITY to please God for all who are "in the flesh" as those "in the flesh CANNOT please God."

Winman has shot a hole in his own foot by admitting that all "in the flesh CANNOT please God" and thus every NARRATIVE illustration he provides to prove the contrary only proves his interpretation is false.

Van, is forced to embrace justfication by works to avoid the OP.

Skan, must repudiate the necessity of the cross as he denies any condemnation previous to salvation, thus gutting justification, and mercy and salvation of any meaning or necessity.

:thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs:

Yes. I see again the error of skan and others in their false doctrine of no one is lost until they reject the Gospel of Christ. People are lost NOW, the world is condemned NOW (which is why we preach) not only after rejection of the Gospel. Persons have argued his errant side on here, that they aren't lost until they reject, so I told them (in the past) to quit preaching to them and they'll be OK. Emphasis on the quit preaching part.

 

[The Biblicist]

:thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs:

Yes. I see again the error of skan and others in their false doctrine of no one is lost until they reject the Gospel of Christ. People are lost NOW, the world is condemned NOW (which is why we preach) not only after rejection of the Gospel. Persons have argued his errant side on here, that they aren't lost until they reject, so I told them (in the past) to quit preaching to them and they'll be OK. Emphasis on the quit preaching part.

I must confess that I need to act in a way that permits those who are wrong to feel free to admit they are wrong. I apologize to one and all for not providing that atmosphere. I am just a sinner saved by grace and I am what I am by the grace of God and there go I but by the grace of God. So there is absolutely nothing I have any right to boast in.

 

[Skandelon]

However, before anyone is actually condemned to hell they are FIRST condemned by the law as sinners

Oh, so you mean by 'condemned' that they are 'guilty of sin?' Then we are in agreement. I thought you meant hell, or final judgement where one is ultimately condemned...or the 'non-elect' of your system which would be 'certainly bound to hell without hope of escape.' But if you just mean they are sinful, then there is no disagreement.

and consequentially condemned to be worthy of the wrath

Again, no disagreement here. Law breakers are certainly worthy or deserving of wrath, as I've said numerous times.

Hell is the final aspect of condemnation due to previously being condemned as a sinner and worthy of such wrath.

Which man IS ABLE to escape by grace through faith, right?

Wrath was justifed before we were saved!

Agreed.

See, that was worth the clarification.

Men are sinners who deserve wrath, which is something we both affirm. But does God choose to pour out his wrath on mankind, or on his Son? Does God provide a way to fulfill that which the law demands through faith in His son?

 

[The Biblicist]

Men are sinners who deserve wrath, which is something we both affirm. But does God choose to pour out his wrath on mankind, or on his Son? Does God provide a way to fulfill that which the law demands through faith in His son?

Rom. 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Progressive hardening is the wrath of God revealed from heaven. Being turned over to such things IS God's wrath being experienced here and now.

Jn. 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


The wrath of God IS already abiding on sinners and unbelievers.

No believer is exempt from the temporal aspects of God's wrath (hardening, sin, sickness, war, hate, death etc.) but are saved from eternal wrath in hell.

 

[preacher4truth]

I must confess that I need to act in a way that permits those who are wrong to feel free to admit they are wrong.

Don't hold your breath.

I apologize to one and all for not providing that atmosphere.

That is way above your pay grade and everyone else's. We can't even provide such an atmosphere, we can only preach, correct, instruct, rebuke. God does as He wills through that. We are only called to be faithful in our preaching.

I am just a sinner saved by grace and I am what I am by the grace of God and there go I but by the grace of God. So there is absolutely nothing I have any right to boast in.

I'm not certain what exactly your point is in all of this. I will say this though, some simply do not get 'not of yourselves' and preach man's ability which is contrary to biblical salvation.

 

[The Biblicist]

I'm not certain what exactly your point is in all of this. I will say this though, some simply do not get 'not of yourselves' and preach man's ability which is contrary to biblical salvation.

I don't want to provide additional reasons to reject truth. The truth can be served in love or in an unloving way and the latter is held against me by God but not the former.

 

[preacher4truth]

Rom. 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Progressive hardening is the wrath of God revealed from heaven. Being turned over to such things IS God's wrath being experienced here and now.

Jn. 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


The wrath of God IS already abiding on sinners and unbelievers.

No believer is exempt from the temporal aspects of God's wrath (hardening, sin, sickness, war, hate, death etc.) but are saved from eternal wrath in hell.

We see his error crystal clear. Mankind is condemned already, but skan opposes that and has a different message altogether.

 

[preacher4truth]

I don't want to provide additional reasons to reject truth.

But you do this whenever you exegete Scripture. I don't see your above position supported by Scripture. We are to preach in season, out of season.

The truth can be served in love or in an unloving way and the latter is held against me by God but not the former.

True. But the motive is in our conscience, and is called into question by the opponents. I don't have a guilty conscience about it. Truth has always been opposed, and those who present and preach it have always been judged, opposed, and maligned for doing so.

 

[Yeshua1]

Why do you stop short at Deu 5:29? Why don't you read two verses later?

Deu 5:31 But as for thee, stand thou here by me, and I will speak unto thee all the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which thou shalt teach them, that they may do them in the land which I give them to possess it.

This doesn't sound like God is saying the Jews were unable to keep his commandments to me, it sounds like the very opposite, that God is going to give Moses all his commandments so that he may teach the people, THAT THEY MAY DO THEM.

That certainly sounds like God believes they can do the commandments to me.

Now, that said, the scriptures are clear that no man has, or ever will keep all the commandments except Jesus Christ, but that is not addressing ability, but merely the pure fact that no man has ever kept all the commandments. The two should not be confused, they are entirely different issues.

I have never jumped off a ten story building, but that does not prove I am unable to do so.

God provided for us while we were yetsinners, and weak and helpless to keep the Law, to save us thru jesus death, as he was our propiation and our substitute, and ALL we had to do was call upon Him to save us, which we did when the Spriit enabled us to do such!

Father sent the Son, Son died for sins of His own, the Spirit grants to those to get saved the means to do what God requires...

Isn't God great!

 

[Skandelon]

Rom. 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

The part in blue would suggest that wrath is not for those who do accept the truth, but only for those who 'trade the truth in for lies.'

The wrath of God IS already abiding on sinners and unbelievers.

ON unbelievers...those who trade the truth of God in for lies, but to those who do believe and repent their sins are forgiven and they are clothed in the RIGHTEOUSNESS of Christ. They are justified, meaning they fulfill the demands of the law, something that would have to be IMPOSSIBLE for everyone for your point regarding inability to be valid.

 

[Skandelon]

We see his error crystal clear. Mankind is condemned already, but skan opposes that and has a different message altogether.

That depends on what one means by 'condemned,' as we already clarified.

 

[preacher4truth]

That depends on what one means by 'condemned,' as we already clarified.

Jesus meant all are on their way to hell prior to hearing His Gospel. You have a different and opposing message than He.

 

[Skandelon]

Jesus meant all are on their way to hell prior to hearing His Gospel.

I agree with this. Thank you for helping me. Hopefully Biblicist will see it this way too. :thumbs:

 

[Yeshua1]

That depends on what one means by 'condemned,' as we already clarified.

All have sinne din Ada, ansd the Lord reckpned his gulit upon us all, so what other meaning can there be but that God finds us already guilty/condemned, and whose ONLY hope is found in his grace and mercy?

 

[preacher4truth]

I agree with this. Thank you for helping me. Hopefully Biblicist will see it this way too. :thumbs:

Actually you don't agree with this. Nice grab for recovery though.

As said, in your message none are lost until rejecting Christ. In Scripture? All are lost and under wrath prior to this. We've been on this merry go round of yours in the past.

 

[The Biblicist]

The part in blue would suggest that wrath is not for those who do accept the truth, but only for those who 'trade the truth in for lies.'

Here is a teachable moment, listen and learn. Sin ultimatley is derived from the heart motive for all that you think, say or do. The only motive that is not sin is to think, say and do ALL FOR THE GLORY OF GOD - and all have come short of the glory of God beginning with their entrance into the world.

Anyone can easily see that infants and children are SELFISH in motive and everythng is centered around self and NOTHING is thought, said or done for the glory of God.

Mankind lost this pure motive in the fall and fell into sin. Hence, all mankind suppresses righteousness AS SOON AS THEY ARE BORN by the very motive that rules their lives. So you have no escape route from this text as there is no human being living that comes into this world with the right heart motive which is the root and essence of sin in all that man thinks says or does and that is why Jesus said "There IS none righteous" - the only exception to this universal and absolute statement is "but God." You don't believe this nor do your arminian friends.

ON unbelievers...those who trade the truth of God in for lies, but to those who do believe and repent their sins are forgiven and they are clothed in the RIGHTEOUSNESS of Christ. They are justified, meaning they fulfill the demands of the law, something that would have to be IMPOSSIBLE for everyone for your point regarding inability to be valid.

No human being comes into this world as a believer and so from infant forward all are unbelievers and the proof they are under the wrath of God from birth is they all suffer the consequence of wrath for sin - death.

 

[The Biblicist]

I agree with this. Thank you for helping me. Hopefully Biblicist will see it this way too. :thumbs:

Why? Because ALL are condem.ned already or you could not say "ALL are on their way to hell already." But you don't believe this so why pretend you do. Your reponse to Romans 1:18 and John 3:36 demonstrates you don't believe that