The Arminian Prayer

[Monergist]

Saw this on another board...

The Arminian Prayer by Joe Garnett
Joe Garnett
Jun 30, 2002

The Arminian Prayer
by Joe Garnett

It appears to me that those who adhere to Arminianism pray Calvinistic prayers. This is most assuredly not proper. Thus I have constructed a prayer for Arminians that is in line with their theology. It is most important that one give thanks unto him that is due thanksgiving.


God, I thank you that You provided salvation for every person and that everyone has the equal opportunity to that salvation. And I thank You for my salvation. Actually, I thank me some for my salvation because You gave us all the freedom to choose. Yes, God, every man You gave the freedom to choose or reject You. I chose You and I'm sure You're happy that I did.

After You provided salvation for everybody it is good that somebody responds to it. I responded to it and I thank You. Well, really, it was my choice so I don't thank You for my response. I'm sure You're grateful to me that I responded. If I and some others had not chosen to respond You would not have any children and that would be too bad. So I know that You're delighted with those of us that had the good sense to do what is right, to love You and choose You.

Everybody could have chosen You, but I'm the one who did. It is just too bad that those other people were not as clever as I am. God, I'm sure You're disappointed in them. But don't take it too hard. You still have us that had the brains to appropriate Your salvation. God, I'm obliged for Your part in my salvation. And though You have never said so, I'm sure You are appreciative to me for my part as well. There is no doubt that when I get to heaven You will let me know how grateful You are. We've worked this out together for our mutual benefit. I thank You and You thank me. How nice.

We are a real team.

And God, I especially thank You that I am not like those self-righteous Calvinist. Well, actually, You didn't have anything to do with that so I don't thank You. It was my choice to believe what I believe so I'm sure You are happy with me. Imagine me thinking that You were so egotistical as to do all the choosing Yourself. How unfair! Those Calvinist are so self-righteous to think that You would just save them while they do nothing but sin. But I'm not like that. I know I made the right decision when I chose You, God, and You can take great joy in it.

To God be all the glory... Well, a little of it anyway.

Amen.

Taken from HERE

 

[Gershom]

Please.

 

[Ray Berrian]

This was not a sincere prayer from anyone, not even Joe Garnett. He is expressing a lot of 'over the top' half truth mantras that are not worthy of consideration. Prayer is not preaching or talking about theology though I have heard some saints pray this way in public. God knows all truth and about His plan of salvation, He does not need to be reminded.

Brother, Joe, if he is a Christian needs to spend hours of study in the Word so he is not quite so bias and opinionated.

His half truths are not truths at all; and by this I mean they are untruths and falsehoods. These wrong statements are hardly the gifts of the Spirit flowing from his heart.

 

[Ray Berrian]

I believe I should have said 'fruit of the Spirit' rather than gifts of the Spirit. Are these fruit not love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance? [Galatians 5:22]

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

Monergist - Thanks for sharing - it was hilarious.

 

[acts17_11]

Monergist,
Do you not love? If you do please show that love in your posts. We (me included) need to stop attcking different views and those who hold them. And remember we "ain't got it right" ourselves fully. Our Lord loves even the unredeemed "for God so love the world..." And that is with or without your permission.


By His Grace Alone,
Michael
www.friendship-piqua.org

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Monergist;
I read in the Bible that we are to Love our neighbors. What an expression of the opposite of that.

 

[Monergist]

Originally posted by acts17_11:
Monergist,
Do you not love? If you do please show that love in your posts. We (me included) need to stop attcking different views and those who hold them. And remember we "ain't got it right" ourselves fully. Our Lord loves even the unredeemed "for God so love the world..." And that is with or without your permission.


By His Grace Alone,
Michael

Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
Hi Monergist;
I read in the Bible that we are to Love our neighbors. What an expression of the opposite of that.

I want to do a three things here. (1) is to critique the assertion that we should not 'attack' other views, (2) is to defend the use of satire & (3) is to evaluate whether or not I demonstrate love.

1.

We (me included) need to stop attacking different views and those who hold them.

Surely you will agree with me that Christianity is exclusive in its claims and its demands. By nature it is confrontational; it confronts our sin, our self righteousness, our pride, our wordly thinking. It confronts false religion, false gods, ungodly culture, and indeed every false way.

Michael, I took the liberty to hit the link in your post, and then I clicked the link "WHAT WE BELIEVE." There I saw a Doctrinal Statement which appears to state certain principles as being true. (And a pretty good doctrinal statement at that-- though as a Presbyterian who holds to historical Reformed theology I have to demure at a few points.) By stating these principles as true, it is strongly implied that opposing views are false, and that those who hold them, to one degree or another, hold to error. (I see no disclaimer in the statement that says "

And remember we "ain't got it right" ourselves fully.

" Is your doctrinal statement 'unloving?' I don't think so.

The idea that we should not attack error is not a distinctly Christian idea, rather it is an influence that comes from our post-modern culture that rejects any idea of absolute truth. They say we should not criticize other beliefs, because all beliefs are equally valid (except those that make exclusive assertions."

I am convinced that the Arminian system is a false system which creates a false god; and since it is a false way, (to use the strong language of scripture) I 'hate' it. I 'hate' it because it demeans the glory of God and exalts man. I 'hate' it because it makes the cross insufficient and, taken to its logical conclusion, creates a system of works salvation. I 'hate' it because it destroys Grace. I 'hate' it because it is the theology of Roman Catholicism, because its tenets have sought to destroy the sufficiency of scripture and exalt itself against God.

2. I hope that it is obvious that the 'prayer' was a piece of satire. I think that the author's purpose must have been to "jolt" us a little and cause us to think? Is it proper to use such a manner? I intend to let scripture answer that question.

Consider some Bibilical examples. Consider Elijah's words on Mount Carmel:

1Ki 18:27 And at noon Elijah mocked them, saying, "Cry aloud, for he is a god. Either he is musing, or he is relieving himself, or he is on a journey, or perhaps he is asleep and must be awakened."

Consider Ezekiel's words concerning the sins of his people:

Eze 23:19 Yet she increased her whoring, remembering the days of her youth, when she played the whore in the land of Egypt Eze 23:20 and lusted after her paramours there, whose members were like those of donkeys, and whose issue was like that of horses.

These are just a couple of examples from the O.T., now lets look to the N.T.

John the Baptist said to his detractors:

Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Paul used satire to make his contempt known for Annanias:

Act 23:3 Then Paul said to him, "God is going to strike you, you whitewashed wall! Are you sitting to judge me according to the law, and yet contrary to the law you order me to be struck?"

Even our Lord's words were biting at times:

Mat 16:2 He answered them, "When it is evening, you say, 'It will be fair weather, for the sky is red.' Mat 16:3 And in the morning, 'It will be stormy today, for the sky is red and threatening.' You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times.
Mat 16:4 An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah." So he left them and departed.

Luk 12:1 In the meantime, when so many thousands of the people had gathered together that they were trampling one another, he began to say to his disciples first, "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

The number of examples are too many to post.

Sometimes our Lord said some rather 'un-Christ-like' things, as did Elijah, Paul and others. I guess someone might say "Well, you're not Elijah, pal!" That point would be well taken. But their example still holds true.

Having said that, I recognize that there is a real danger in speaking the truth in an un-loving way. There is a knowledge that "puffs up." I really don't want to be that kind of person. My desire is to have the kind of love that "rejoices in the truth" and yet to "hate every false way."

My suggestion to those who are offended by this post to do this: Show how it is wrong. Show how the freedom of man to accept or reject God does not give some credit to the man who chooses to 'accept' Him. Show how God is not relieved that someone chooses to accept His offer. Show how God is not disappointed that some choose to reject Him. These are the real issues.

3. My first reaction was to want to jump in and defend myself against the challenge that I show love. But I have to ask, do I measure up according to God's standards. This board is replete with Arminians 'attacking' Calvinism and Calvinists. Should I not dig up and quote a few of those to show a defense for myself?

God's requirement is that I love my neighbor as myself. I have to admit that I fall very short. On the surface, my own pride leads me to think that I do pretty good. But I must compare myself to God's Word to make my determination, not to what others do (or for that matter, what others think about what I do).

If I offended a brother or sister by my post, I must apologize. But lets remember that iron sharpens iron, and get on with dicussing the real issues.

Last, I would ask that anyone still having a problem with the tone or the content of my posts to please PM me, and lets work it out.


Peace

 

[Turpius]

gotta have a sense of humor in these parts.

 

[gb93433]

Ever see any calvinists pray arminian prayers that is if they are evangelistic.

I like to ask a pure calvinist why would he want to pray if everything has already been decided? His prayers are worthless if that is the case. Why would he need to ask God for wisdom if God will do whatever he wants with no response needed on his part because his response is already robotized. If everything is decided then why evangelize? God doesn't need you if everything has already been decided without you having any part.

I have actually heard calvinists tell me they are not sure they are saved. One was a preacher/pastor at the age of about 75.

 

[Timtoolman]

Calvinist dogma, you got to laugh at em! They distort meaning of words and do not listen to those who disagree. They judge peoples hearts and use a lot of clintionize. .........IMHO



Tim

 

[Monergist]

Originally posted by gb93433:
Ever see any calvinists pray arminian prayers that is if they are evangelistic.

I like to ask a pure calvinist why would he want to pray if everything has already been decided?

That shows a lack of undertsanding of what Calvinists believe. We believe that God has not just appointed the end, but the means to the end. The means include prayer, faithful witnessing, preaching, etc. We are not fatalists. We believe that everything has been determined, but that not fate but the providence of a wise God brings all things to pass. The wonder of it all is that He uses such sinful creatures as Himself to bring about His purposes.

I know that it has been pointed out many times, but it needs to be said again, that many of the most powerful preachers that have had a great heart for winning souls have been solis Calvinists.

His prayers are worthless if that is the case. Why would he need to ask God for wisdom if God will do whatever he wants with no response needed on his part because his response is already robotized. If everything is decided then why evangelize? God doesn't need you if everything has already been decided without you having any part.

His prayers are not worthless. If He is praying for sinners to be converted, He is praying in accordance with God's will. How could that be useless?

The main reason we evangelize is because God commands it. Again, this too shows a misunderstanding of Calvinism. I wonder if you are not confusing it with hyper-calvinism, which is not calvinism at all. God has ordained that the elect be saved and he has ordained that it be brought about by the preaching of the gospel.

I have actually heard calvinists tell me they are not sure they are saved. One was a preacher/pastor at the age of about 75.

People of varying theological positions all struggle with assurance of salvation, or the lack of it. Generally speaking, the problem is not as prevalent among calvinists because our assurance is grounded in what Christ has done, not what we have done. Again, it seems that you may be confusing calvinism with hyper-calvinism, as lack of assurance tends to be much more of a problem there

 

[Monergist]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
Calvinist dogma, you got to laugh at em! They distort meaning of words and do not listen to those who disagree. They judge peoples hearts and use a lot of clintionize. .........IMHO



Tim

I guess there would be nothing wrong with a little word-definition drill.

Let's start with the word "DEAD"-- as in "when you were once DEAD in trespasses and sins."
^
^
^
^
^
^
^
^

Calvinst meaning of the word DEAD- It means dead.

Your turn now. What does DEAD mean?


Next we can do PREDESTINED, FOREKNEW, ELECT. etc.

 

[acts17_11]

Monergist;
Please note I am a moderate Calvinist who is a member of an Armenian church. You know that if you read our churches doc. statement. (by the way, I am the webmaster and discipleship teacher in our church). I am here to say that my church is a godly church with many great Christian men and women. They (the leadership) don't agree with me in every aspect of theology nor I them. However we are not that different at all. Christ's Lordship is not diminished at all. Nor do they credit man with the salvation given to us by grace. Our nature is not incorrectly stated from the pulpit. And I have seen God work through many in our church rather Calvinist or Armenian. Starting to think God really don't care what tag we give ourselves as much as He looks at our heart. (That might even be biblical) But what He does care about is the love we show toward one another.

The examples you gave of sarcasm by followers of Christ were all directed toward haters of God. And all had a measure of opportunity for repentance along with it.

My brother I trust your love for our Lord in true. But you must know from this fellow Calvinist that Armenians also love our Lord as well. And I find that a person who's heart is perfect toward God will see who they are and who God is in a very real and sober manner. god does not need us to force in word or other manner good theology. He call us to be a living sacrifice for Him.

By His Grace Alone,
Michael
www.friendship-piqua.org

 

[Timtoolman]

Tim [/qb][/QUOTE]I guess there would be nothing wrong with a little word-definition drill.

Let's start with the word "DEAD"-- as in "when you were once DEAD in trespasses and sins."
^
^
^
^
^
^
^
^

Calvinst meaning of the word DEAD- It means dead.

Your turn now. What does DEAD mean?

What spiritual death is that man cannot commune or please God.
Not that man cannot respond to God. Of course the calvinist def. would also mean that in Romans when we are dead to sins then we are unable to sin or respond to God.


Next we can do PREDESTINED, FOREKNEW, ELECT. etc. [/QB][/QUOTE]

Your choice?

 

[Monergist]

DEAD means "your choice?"

 

[Monergist]

OOPS! Never mind --I see it. My bad.

 

[Timtoolman]

Tim [/qb][/QUOTE]I guess there would be nothing wrong with a little word-definition drill.

Let's start with the word "DEAD"-- as in "when you were once DEAD in trespasses and sins."
^
^
^
^
^
^
^
^

Calvinst meaning of the word DEAD- It means dead.

Your turn now. What does DEAD mean?

What spiritual death is that man cannot commune or please God.
Not that man cannot respond to God. Of course the calvinist def. would also mean that in Romans when we are dead to sins then we are unable to sin or respond to sin.


Next we can do PREDESTINED, FOREKNEW, ELECT. etc. [/QB][/QUOTE]

Your choice?

 

[Monergist]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:

What spiritual death is that man cannot commune or please God.
Not that man cannot respond to God. Of course the calvinist def. would also mean that in Romans when we are dead to sins then we are unable to sin or respond to God.

Something DEAD by nature cannot respond to anything UNDER ITS OWN POWER. How can it, if it is dead?

Remember, it has been said that it is calvinists who change meanings of words. I merely stated that dead means, -well---- dead. Please show how the definition of dead should include the capabilty to respond.

 

[Timtoolman]

Simply the death the bible talks of. Adam and Eve both knew, talked and resnded with God. So that kind of nixes that we are talking about the death of the body. However that def doesn't follow through for spiritual death or we would not be able to respond to sin after we are saved. Can't have it both ways.

Sorry so short, on the road with my ipaq. Pecking is timee consuming . Should have brought my keyboard .