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The Army's hard sell

carpro

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Originally posted by King James:
Then it's not really "freedom" now is it? How can you call someone who may not even believe in a war, who does not want to give their life for it, who pays their TAXES a coward or a freeloader?

Freedom isn't free and you pay for it with blood or tax dollars. If I agree with a war I would fight. If I don't, no "patriot" blowhard with a loud mouth and a bullying spirit would make me. THAT would not be "freedom". I understand that you don't see that...
So you would leave the country you claim to love so much if they were in a fight you didn't agree with?

You take your name much too seriously.

But there are always those like you who talk a good fight but have never seen a battle worth fighting for themselves as long as others are willing to do it for them.

It's not about money . It's about sacrifice. As an acclaimed Christian, you should know a little something about the sacrifice of others on your behalf.

But apparently , it's a one way street to you.
 
O

OCC

Guest
1. Yep. If they are going to infringe on my freedom like a bunch of communistic dictators you bet I would. Didn't your "forefathers" leave a country that tried to enforce certain things on them? Oh yes, I believe it was over taxes, etc.

2. Thank you. It only took me a few seconds to come up with it.

3. Ad hom attack. I don't ask anyone to go fight for me if I don't believe the war is just. They do that of their own free will. I forgive you for your ad hom attack though...you can't help it.

4. You're right it's about sacrifice. Sacrifice cannot be FORCED! Another ad hom attack. You assume that I know nothing about the sacrifice of others on my behalf. My grandfather was in WW2 and I resent your comment. But I forgive you...you can't help it.

5. Another ad hom attack. :rolleyes:
 

ASLANSPAL

New Member
I could start a topic on Savage a totally rip him a part but I am hoping for some repentance from
those who listen to this hate monger.


The Savage nation is the fascist nation:
the quotes are out there on this reprobate!
He cannot be defended or his resume glossed over
his is a real fascist...period.

http://www.epuget.com/page.asp?pid=1134


even conservatives who are smart are turning
against him...
http://www.chronwatch.com/content/contentDisplay.asp?aid=11557

For some reason he hates women:
http://www.michaelsavagesucks.com/sound/savagewomen1.ra

Their is tons of stuff on this guy that confirms
he leans towards fascism or fascism lite.

TBCNo2HateSavageSm.jpg


He wants McCarthyism resurrected
http://www.savagestupidity.com/soundbites/10-4-2002/we_need_another_brave_senator_mccarthy_history_proven_loyal_patriot.mp3

Savage: Family Friendly!!??
http://www.onlinejournal.com/Media/071605Garrett/071605garrett.html
 

Hardsheller

Active Member
Site Supporter
Originally posted by King James:
Then it's not really "freedom" now is it? How can you call someone who may not even believe in a war, who does not want to give their life for it, who pays their TAXES a coward or a freeloader?

Freedom isn't free and you pay for it with blood or tax dollars. If I agree with a war I would fight. If I don't, no "patriot" blowhard with a loud mouth and a bullying spirit would make me. THAT would not be "freedom". I understand that you don't see that...
Well those Patriot blowhards can take your tax dollars and support the war. And if they so choose they can restart the draft and put you in prison if you refuse to serve.

And you can scream "I want my freedom" every day in the chow line in prison as loud as you want to and they'll jerk you out of the chow line and put you in solitary confinement where you can contemplate your navel a while.

With Freedom comes responsibility.
With Democracy comes obligation to participate and serve your country.
 

Carpenter

Member
I am currently an Army recruiter and have been since September 20th 2001. I have watched and felt the effects of the constant barrage of media "assumptions" over the past four years. Yes, we are having much more difficulty in bringing qualified individuals into the Army and it is a direct result of a biased media who are undermining U.S. efforts to develop a safer world for our children to grow up in. I want my four year old daughter to be able to grow up in a world where she doesn't have to be afraid to visit other places without being blown up. All the media cares about is developing controversay in order to grab ratings and sell papers.

What are we so afraid of!!! Guess what, if we are too afraid to stand up to the terrorists then they have already won. That is their goal, and the media is giving them exactly what they want...

We can choose to let them continue terrorizing us and keep us afraid, or we can finally say enough is enough and put an end to it. It will not happen overnight, but we could certainly bring it to a close much quicker if this country was truly the UNITED STATES of America. The problem is we have way too many "Americans" who feel they should not have to absorb any of the cost of keeping our nation free. Thank God our country's founders didn't see it that way, or we wouldn't even be able to have this debate today.

As a citizen of the United States we inherit a responsibility to preserve our nation's freedom. Fortunately, and in extreme gratitude to those who have served in previous wars, we have had the luxury of deciding for ourselves whether or not we wanted to serve. We have become spoiled and detached from what set our country apart from the rest of the world. It is OUR responsibility to preserve our freedom now. Some of the most ridiculous answers I have received from potential recruits involved something similar to "My dad served, or my grandfather served, or someone else - thus my family did our part." We are not Christians because dad or granddad was, and we have not done our part for our nation just because someone else in the family did. If you do not want to accept the inherent responsibility of defending our ideals, then maybe you should look elsewhere for a country that suits your beliefs. But guess what? You won't find one. Then you need to ask yourself, what has the United States done differently than all of these other countries, despite our young 200+ year existence. Freedom. But how long will we remain free without the existence of a military? Somehow I don't believe there would be a Utopian world, or a United States for that matter.

So go ahead and keep thinking and "feeling" like military service should be just another option for those who want to do it. I am for an all-voluntary force as much as any else, and would love to see it continue. The quality of an all-volunteer force is much greater than a conscripted force. But, if we allow the propaganda to keeping filtering out of the news networks we will lose that luxury.

How much is the freedom you have in this country worth to you? This is ONLY MY OPINION: If it is not worth giving your life for, then you do not deserve it.
 

carpro

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Originally posted by Carpenter:
It is OUR responsibility to preserve our freedom now. Some of the most ridiculous answers I have received from potential recruits involved something similar to "My dad served, or my grandfather served, or someone else - thus my family did our part." We are not Christians because dad or granddad was, and we have not done our part for our nation just because someone else in the family did. If you do not want to accept the inherent responsibility of defending our ideals, then maybe you should look elsewhere for a country that suits your beliefs.


How much is the freedom you have in this country worth to you? This is ONLY MY OPINION: If it is not worth giving your life for, then you do not deserve it.
Well said.

As you can see by some of the prior discussion, there are always those that prefer someone else to shoulder their part of the load. If they don't get their way, they run and hide.

Thank you for what you are doing. And may God pour his blessings out upon you and your brothers in arms.
 
O

OCC

Guest
Originally posted by Hardsheller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by King James:
Then it's not really "freedom" now is it? How can you call someone who may not even believe in a war, who does not want to give their life for it, who pays their TAXES a coward or a freeloader?

Freedom isn't free and you pay for it with blood or tax dollars. If I agree with a war I would fight. If I don't, no "patriot" blowhard with a loud mouth and a bullying spirit would make me. THAT would not be "freedom". I understand that you don't see that...
Well those Patriot blowhards can take your tax dollars and support the war. And if they so choose they can restart the draft and put you in prison if you refuse to serve.

And you can scream "I want my freedom" every day in the chow line in prison as loud as you want to and they'll jerk you out of the chow line and put you in solitary confinement where you can contemplate your navel a while.

With Freedom comes responsibility.
With Democracy comes obligation to participate and serve your country.
</font>[/QUOTE]Nope. With freedom comes freedom...nobody can force you to fight a war you don't believe in. That is not freedom, no matter how you slice it. It is communist. I don't fall for that double speak propaganda.

I don't care if they restart a draft. I am 30 years old and I am a Canadian. And I am not "cannon fodder" for my government. I AM free.
 
O

OCC

Guest
"Well said.

As you can see by some of the prior discussion, there are always those that prefer someone else to shoulder their part of the load. If they don't get their way, they run and hide."

Ignorant ad hom attack. I was in the military myself (of my own free will). I don't want anyone to shoulder my load. If a war is unjust, my first allegiance is to Jesus Christ...not my government...and I will NOT be forced to take up arms for a war that I feel is unjust. Now...where is your allegiance?
 
O

OCC

Guest
"If you do not want to accept the inherent responsibility of defending our ideals, then maybe you should look elsewhere for a country that suits your beliefs."

Ad hom attack on the level of a communistic dictator. I LIVE in a country that suits my beliefs. It is called Canada. We don't believe in hypocrisy. Being free means not being forced to DIE for an unjust cause. You can keep your allegiance to your country. Mine is first and foremost to Jesus Christ. That's the bottom line cuz I said so.
 

RockRambler

New Member
Sometimes standing up to your government is actually standing up for your country.


I found more courage in the ones during Vietnam who moved to Canada with the possibility of never seeing their families again, or to the ones willing to face a prison sentence for refusing to go to Vietnam, then I did those who hid out in Reserve and Guard Units.

Today's Guard and Reserve Units are much different because they know they will probably have to go. But during Vietnam, that was not the case. In fact I know of two local men who went into the Guard during Vietnam, then during the first Gulf War when they started activating Guard Units, they both became medically disabled real quick.
 

Bro. James

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
One of the obligations inherent to citizenship in a free society is participation in the defense thereof--what ever it takes--volunteers or conscripts.

Citizen soldiering is a tried and true principle. It keeps out the "mercenary" aspect and pumps up the patriotism--a necessary ingredient for survival.

Signed: a retired "Minuteman". I still keep my musket loaded and ready. I still know how to "lock and load" and "fire for effect".

Selah,

Bro. James

[ July 18, 2005, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: Bro. James ]
 
O

OCC

Guest
Disagree. Volunteers yes. Conscripts no. Conscription by it's nature eliminates "freedom". It is communist.
 

carpro

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Originally posted by RockRambler:
Sometimes standing up to your government is actually standing up for your country.


I found more courage in the ones during Vietnam who moved to Canada with the possibility of never seeing their families again, or to the ones willing to face a prison sentence for refusing to go to Vietnam, then I did those who hid out in Reserve and Guard Units.

Only the ones who stood their ground and fought for their beliefs, even if it meant jail time, are deserving of respect.

The ones that ran are cowards.
 
O

OCC

Guest
Originally posted by carpro:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by RockRambler:
Sometimes standing up to your government is actually standing up for your country.


I found more courage in the ones during Vietnam who moved to Canada with the possibility of never seeing their families again, or to the ones willing to face a prison sentence for refusing to go to Vietnam, then I did those who hid out in Reserve and Guard Units.

Only the ones who stood their ground and fought for their beliefs, even if it meant jail time, are deserving of respect.

The ones that ran are cowards.
</font>[/QUOTE]:rolleyes: slander...
 

NiteShift

New Member
Originally posted by King James:
It is good that you admitted to speaking in generalities. Conservatives lambast liberals who speak in generalities. :(

Maybe they did not have the resources or manpower but they sure fought hard and they didn't wait until a few years later to get involved. Why is it the U.S. waited a few years? With your help maybe the war would not have lasted as long and much less lives would have been lost. Maybe Hitler would not have been able to have so many Jews needlessly exterminated. To say we needed your help may be true...but it doesn't make you guys look too good...seein as the help took a few years to get there.
lol...Well first you say Europe didn't need American help, then you say Europe DID need our help and why did we take so long to get there? You're a slippery devil aren't you.
 
O

OCC

Guest
Nope brother, not a devil...I just play both sides of the debate...anything I can use.
It is reacting to what the other person says....hoping to catch them in some inconsistency. Granted the same happens to me too...but I try to find a way out.
 

Carpenter

Member
Then it's not really "freedom" now is it? How can you call someone who may not even believe in a war, who does not want to give their life for it, who pays their TAXES a coward or a freeloader?
Is having to pay TAXES considered true freedom? It seems that according to your logic that is a form of communism also, unless we are given a choice to pay or not...(like that will ever happen :rolleyes: )

I don't think we will truly see your version of FREEDOM until we all get to heaven.
 
O

OCC

Guest
No...I meant by paying taxes you are supporting your country and the government leaves you alone and thus you are free. But forced payment of taxes is nothing compared to forced giving of your life. The truth is we would never see an ultra conservative who doesn't complain about increased taxes while having no problem with sending other people's children to die.

Yeah we probably won't see my version of freedom until we all get to heaven.
 
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