Not sure if you saw it due to the need to expand, but the point was...
Not any different than the mixing of exhortation and warning in Chapter Ten.
God bless.
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The Assembling of the Brethren (Hebrews 10:25)
- Thread starter Darrell C
- Start date
Not sure if you saw it due to the need to expand, but the point was...
Not any different than the mixing of exhortation and warning in Chapter Ten.
God bless.
23-15?
Everyone's a critic, lol.
Corrected it.
I know v.25 is to an assembly that has both believers and those who have a potential for returning to the Law.
The (Covenant of) Law and the New Testament are contrasted numerous times throughout Hebrews, that is a theme that remains constant.
And the forsaking of the assembling of the brethren would be accomplished by those that return to the Law in preference to the New Covenant.
This is the primary context of Chapter Ten. Atonement and remission of sins under New Covenant Standard through the offering of Christ, as opposed to the provision of the Law.
And the same group that is told...
Hebrews 10:15-18
King James Version (KJV)
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
...is also the same group that is told...
Hebrews 10:26-29
King James Version (KJV)
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
The audience is first and foremost Hebrew, and to say they are all saved assumes quite a bit, plus throws us into reconciling this with other teachings in Scripture which teach the Security of the Believer.
The same sacrifice, John, is in view in both sections, the first declaring the eternal efficacy of Christ's Sacrifice in regards to Atonement and remission of sins, the second declaring the sole efficacy.
What is in view is that those who do forsake the assembling of the brethren reject, as it is stated in v.29...Christ, the New Covenant, and the Ministry of the Comforter. If they draw back...they have no sacrifice they can turn to.
It's not really that difficult, really. It is simply seeking to place v.25 back into it's true context, which is not, in my view, a warning that can apply to believers. In fact, it has it's primary application to those who were actually under the Law.
When we evangelize people we do not warn them about turning back to other sacrifices. We do not, as the writer begins in v.1 have to explain to them that the sacrifices of the Law cannot take away sins.
Have you ever had to witness to someone who offered up sacrifice according to the Law? And I mean literal death of animals with the purpose of attaining to the atonement and remission of sins provided by the First Covenant.
Hebrew believers.
But we see the same thing in a number of places:
How about the Galatians, who were being influenced by Judaizers?
Galatians 3
King James Version (KJV)
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Similar warning not to be trusting in something other than Christ for salvation.
And not sure why this section didn't come up when I quoted the last portion. I really don't like the expanding feature. Makes it tough to break up a quote. Had this on another forum and had to go to another forum to get the functions I needed.
God bless.
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Agreed, but let's put it in terms that are not separated here: does a born again believer trod underfoot the Son of God, count the Blood of the Covenant whereby He was sanctified unholy, do despite (resist) the Spirit of Grace, and ultimately draw back unto perdition?
We realize that a believer can get to the point where he forsakes the assembling of the brethren, and to be honest, I know a few people where I cannot really blame them. Knew a guy who had a Pastor and a Deacon sleeping with his wife. But on the negative side, there are some I believe who have done this, for example, out of grief. Know an atheist on one forum that was a faithful attendee whose son was killed in an accident. He became enraged with God and forsook the assembling. While we do not know if he was saved and is just a believer in total rebellion, or if he was never saved, but the point is that the forsaking of the assembling of the brethren is different in both of those examples, and Hebrews 10 does not apply to both of them.
One is a believer in rebellion, the other, most likely...someone who was likely never saved.
Now we narrow the focus to the warning which makes it clear in view in the warning is a rejection of Christ on a salvific level...not one of chastisement.
We see the rejection of the Law contrasted with the rejection of Christ, the New Covenant, and the Holy Ghost, not a matte of simply not going to Church.
Hebrews 10:26-29
King James Version (KJV)
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
I've included a link to Strong's to show that it is rejection in view.
I agree, but which of them were saved believers guilty of rejecting Christ, the New Covenant, and the Holy Ghost?
And I would disagree: rather...emphasize the importance of relationship with Christ, rather than relationship with the Body.
And that is my primary beef with the use of this verse, John. It is never placed in the broader context, it is served up, every time I have ever heard it mentioned, in a context of "You have to go to church."
While I am a firm believer that we have a responsibility to go so we may worship God, and can grow and be edified by attendance, the last thing I am going to do is unintentionally feed the very thing that the Writer warns about...which is attendance which is not genuine.
Would you agree that many have the misconception that going to church is something that they have to do in regards to salvation? That is obscures the fact that salvation is through that which the writer has a focus on...the offering of Christ?
Some manuscripts have Christos while others have kyrios.
And while we can call The Day of the Lord the Day of Christ and understand this is acceptable, the distinction is, I think, pretty important.
That's what I have been saying, John, that the audience is both, but that the warning applies only to unbelievers, because they cannot tread underfoot the Son of God, count the Covenant He was sanctified an unholy thing, and do despite unto the Spirit of Grace, and finally draw back to perdition.
Believers believe to the saving of the soul, and the warning is for those who have not. Who are in danger of drawing back unto perdition.
Thus in the poll I have selected that the forsaking of the brethren applies to unbelievers only.
God bless.
It is very relevant because we do not see Scripture given exclusively to saved people.
It is my view that the entire Old Testament was given to people who were not eternally redeemed and did not have their sins atoned for until Christ died (Hebrews 9:12-15).
But I agree, it is not telling lost people to live good lives, but to evidence genuine salvation by heeding the exhortations given by the Writer.
If one forsakes the assembling of the brethren, based on this text...they have good reason to question the validity of their salvation. And those who neglect so great a salvation will not...escape.
Escape what?
Well, just what he stated in the preceding verse...a just recompense of reward. And we know what the reward was for rejecting the Law (which is yet another contrast between the Law and the New Covenant).
In Chapter 10 the rejection of Christ, His Sacrifice, and the Spirit of Grace (the Comforter) will be punished more severely than rejecting Moses' Law (the First Covenant).
We know that there were many disciples who partook of the loaves, who did so for the physical provision provided them.
John 6:26-27
King James Version (KJV)
26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
John 6:66
King James Version (KJV)
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Now did Christ exhort these people to live good lives?
The answer would have to be yes, because Christ did not reveal the Mystery of the Gospel to the multitudes He preached to, and His preaching was according to the Law, which does indeed instruct even the lost...to live good lives.
In Hebrews chapter Three you can find an entire generation of unbelievers who received the Word of God and the Covenant of Law. The warning of the Writer, and ultimately God, is...don't be like them. Don't be unbelieving.
Continued...
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Who had eternal salvation in the Old Testament?
Who that has received eternal life through Christ do not still offer up filthy rags? We have to distinguish between the temporal and eternal.
I did not bring a context of "lost people living good lives" into the discussion, you did. Not forsaking the assembling of the brethren is irrelevant to salvation from the eternal perspective. To equate assembling as a "good work" is the corollary, is it not? Isn't that equally works-based?
And I will say that based on Romans 1 we know that those who are not exposed to the Gospel are not without hope. We Gentiles in the Old Testament that are obedient to the revelation God provides every man in his heart:
Romans 1:18-21
King James Version (KJV)
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
We see Gentiles who are obedient to that which is revealed outside of direct revelation (and here that would be the Oracles of God given unto Jews):
Romans 2:10-15
King James Version (KJV)
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)
It is just my view that God justly judges all men according to the revelation He has provided them, and this in direct relation to how they have responded to that revelation.
Continued...
Not entirely true, based on Romans 1 and 2.
That applies to that guy in deepest, darkest Africa that always comes up in Sunday School Classes, lol: "What happens to the guy in deepest darkest Africa...that has never heard the Gospel?"
He will be judged according to his response to the revelation God has provided him. Paul speaks of the internal witness, the testimony of Creation, and direct revelation (the Word of God).
It goes to the point concerning lost people being commanded of God, and taught to live good lives. No man is excused from the will of God, particularly if they have received direct revelation such as Israel did. Within Israel was both believing and unbelieving, and in a larger context we could rightly distinguish between those of that Age (and previous eras) and those in the Church, in that the Old Testament Saints were not made perfect in regards to remission of sins and they were not Baptized in the Holy Ghost.
The relevance then is that in regards to the Hebrew Audience (which is the correct designation for the audience), we would neglect an overview of Biblical Teaching to assume everyone addressed was saved. The warnings of Hebrews makes it clear that the Writer had concerns, even as Paul had for several audiences he wrote to (Corinthians, Galatians, for example). In First Corinthians Paul commands them to remove a sinning member from the Body, and rebukes them for not viewing it in the light it should have been.
Why not?
The same goal is in view in both, right? When you preach to the Congregation you do not assume everyone is saved, do you? Even if you know everyone, or even had led everyone to Christ yourself (which would not surprise me, lol, seeing you are a Missionary), would there never be occasion to question whether the professions are all genuine?
But I made it clear, I think we can assume tares in any given fellowship. Christ always taught a many/few ratio, and that there would be tares (indistinguishable from wheat) mixed in with the wheat.
I never said the assembly was one or the other, but, that this warning applies only to those who are not genuinely saved.
God bless.
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I agree completely.
And now perhaps you should go back and change your vote to #3: Both! And that means that we have no differences in interpretation here, which makes the whole thread moot! That is, unless you are going to say here the assembly in 10:25 is not a church. (Don't know that you would say that. Haven't figured your position out on that.)
However, if the assembly is not a church, what in the world is it? The Jewish Christians of the time would not be going to the synagogue except for evangelism. I see no other possible assembly in view in 10:25 other than the church
No, we don't know that actual disciples (as opposed to simply interested people) did this. In the context (John 6:22) we see that it is "the people," as distinct from "the disciples," who were following because of the loaves.
Yes, disciples, not outwardly unbelievers or even seekers. Christ had high standards for his disciples: Commitment unto death (Matt. 12:49-50), following the Word (John 8:31), love for other believers (John 13:35), bearing fruit (John 15:8).
Yes, because they were disciples, ostensibly believers.
Please give an example where Jesus told the unbelieving multitudes to live good lives. And your example cannot be the Sermon on the Mount, because it was to disciples as distinct from the multitudes (Matt. 5:1).
So the disciples that walked no more with Him did not receive His teaching, and we do not think that Christ exhorted these people to live good lives?
I would think that since His teachings were all based in the Law, which was for the purpose of men living according to God's will, this would be a moot point.
Agreed. He had high standards for all men.
Agreed:
Matthew 26:71-74
King James Version (KJV)
71 And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and said unto them that were there, This fellow was also with Jesus of Nazareth.
72 And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man.
73 And after a while came unto him they that stood by, and said to Peter, Surely thou also art one of them; for thy speech bewrayeth thee.
74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew.
Agreed:
Galatians 2:11-12
King James Version (KJV)
11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
Agreed:
Mark 9:37-39
King James Version (KJV)
37 Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me.
38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
Agreed:
John 15
King James Version (KJV)
15 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
John 16:29-32
King James Version (KJV)
29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?
32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
Continued...
Yet they chose to walk no more with Him.
They were disciples, but being a disciple does not impose eternal redemption.
Until Christ died these disciples were not born again believers, did not abide in Christ, did not produce fruit, and in fact did not even believe that Christ would rise again from the dead:
Luke 24:4-11
King James Version (KJV)
4 And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:
5 And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?
6 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,
7 Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.
8 And they remembered his words,
9 And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest.
10 It was Mary Magdalene and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles.
11 And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.
Sure:
Luke 3:7-17
King James Version (KJV)
7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
10 And the people asked him, saying, What shall we do then?
11 He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise.
12 Then came also publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, what shall we do?
13 And he said unto them, Exact no more than that which is appointed you.
14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.
We would not consider all of these people to be disciples of Christ, and we see they are taught to live good lives.
This is contrasted with John's Prophecy:
15 And as the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not;
16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.
Now, we see a few stragglers of John's here:
Acts 19
King James Version (KJV)
1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
These were disciples of John, and we see in Luke that Christ's ministry extended to people in that crowd.
Again, not even one of the disciples of Christ can be said to have fulfilled the "high standards" Christ imposed, either before Pentecost, or, arguably, after. Peter was in direct opposition to the Gospel itself, even though the Father had revealed to him that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God. RIght after making that declaration, we read...
Matthew 16:21-23
King James Version (KJV)
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
While we would view the 11 disciples of Christ as saved in an Old Testament perspective, we would not say they were born again believers (and if you care to debate that issue there is a thread already).
Continued...
Yet they chose to walk no more with Him.
They were disciples, but being a disciple does not impose eternal redemption.
Until Christ died these disciples were not born again believers, did not abide in Christ, did not produce fruit, and in fact did not even believe that Christ would rise again from the dead:
Luke 24:4-11
King James Version (KJV)
4 And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:
5 And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?
6 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,
7 Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.
8 And they remembered his words,
9 And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest.
10 It was Mary Magdalene and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles.
11 And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.
Sure:
Luke 3:7-17
King James Version (KJV)
7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
10 And the people asked him, saying, What shall we do then?
11 He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise.
12 Then came also publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, what shall we do?
13 And he said unto them, Exact no more than that which is appointed you.
14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.
We would not consider all of these people to be disciples of Christ, and we see they are taught to live good lives.
This is contrasted with John's Prophecy:
15 And as the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not;
16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.
Now, we see a few stragglers of John's here:
Acts 19
King James Version (KJV)
1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
These were disciples of John, and we see in Luke that Christ's ministry extended to people in that crowd.
Again, not even one of the disciples of Christ can be said to have fulfilled the "high standards" Christ imposed, either before Pentecost, or, arguably, after. Peter was in direct opposition to the Gospel itself, even though the Father had revealed to him that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God. RIght after making that declaration, we read...
Matthew 16:21-23
King James Version (KJV)
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
While we would view the 11 disciples of Christ as saved in an Old Testament perspective, we would not say they were born again believers (and if you care to debate that issue there is a thread already).
I would just ask...what happened to the multitudes when Christ was taken?
If not even His disciples remained loyal, or believed in the Resurrection...
Mark 16:10-14
King James Version (KJV)
10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
...why would we think a "multitude of disciples" were "saved?"
God bless.
I do see a weakness in the way it is asked, I should have asked "Who does the warning refer to."
I agree that the verse is given to the assembly, but, when we place it in the context of the Chapter, "Forsake not the assembling of the brethren corresponds to those who sin willfully, and reject Christ.
That doesn't apply to those who believe to the saving of the soul, primarily because in view is apostasy, not applicable to those who are already saved, who are the Church, not just the assembly.
Most assemblies are going to have tares to which this warning will be relevant to. If I asked you, John, how possible it was for you to forsake the assembling of the brethren and return to the sacrificial system of the Law, just how likely do you think that would be?
The weakness of the verse, though, is made clear by the two primary choices, which sets the context of the question: 1. believers that stop going to church, or 2. Unbelievers that reject Christ. This narrows the scope to those two choices.
So I cannot see this exhortation to refer to those who are not rejecting Christ, and cannot fulfill that which the writer speaks of, which is rejection of Christ, His Sacrifice, and resisting the Holy Ghost. Those assembled in this assembly, and any assembly, who is actually a member of the Church...
...simply cannot forsake the assembly under those terms.
God bless.
We don't have Internet at home, so I appreciate your patience in waiting for an answer.
So, Heb. 10:25 is to people who are very clearly saved or who are not saved but pretending they are. The writer of Hebrews could not tell who was who (as you and I cannot), so he gave a general warning to all who were assembling: don't stop assembling, because if you are not regenerate that would be disastrous.
Look, if I preach to a church full of outward Christians, I tell them how to live right. Whether or not they are true believers is not in view. If I preach to a crowd of lost people, I don't tell them how to live right. They can't. I tell them how to be saved.
But they were saved, not lost.
Wrong. They were disciples of John. And he was telling them what fruits would show repentance after they repented, not how to live before they repented.
None of this is relevant. I'm still waiting for you to show me where Christ preached living a good life to those who were not saved.
Again, irrelevant. Heb. 10:25 is to born again people or those who claimed to be born again but weren't (who might then apostasize, so a warning was also given.
Again, all of this is irrelevant. I've challenged you to show me where someone who is lost is told to live a right life. They can't. It's impossible. They must be told to repent (John or Jesus) or be saved (Acts).
So, Heb. 10:25 is to people who are very clearly saved or who are not saved but pretending they are. The writer of Hebrews could not tell who was who (as you and I cannot), so he gave a general warning to all who were assembling: don't stop assembling, because if you are not regenerate that would be disastrous.
But then you would not have been talking about 10:25, because there is no warning in that verse.
Look, Hebrews is to ostensibly saved people. Along the way the various warnings are given to those who claim to be saved but are not. As a preacher, that is what we do. We have to give general warnings to the whole crowd, because "Man looketh on the outward appearance, but God looketh on the heart." There is no way I can tell if my hearers are all truly saved. Only God knows that. So, like the writer of Hebrews, I give a general warning to both those who are truly saved and those who think they are but are not. Both kinds are in the assembly of 10:25, so the verse is to both. Vv. 22-24 are very clearly to people of faith, so it is poor hermeneutics to all of a sudden call v. 25 a verse to the lost with no warning or notice that now you are speaking exclusively to the lost.
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No worries, John, work at your own pace. I am sure you are quite busy with your work. That is something I need to get back to so will be departing from the forum again soon.
Time to find another field, lol.
And you are teaching lost people to live good lives, unless you are saying, "Now for those of you who are not Christians...this doesn't apply to you."
You don't do that, do you?
And when you preach, John, how often do you include the Gospel in your sermons? And when you do include the Gospel in a message, you are doing the same thing the writer of Hebrews is doing.
Have you ever warned in a message about false profession? Then you did exactly what the writer is doing.
That is a bit irrelevant, except to the street preachers.
I think most Pastors understand that the likelihood of false professors among the congregation is a very real possibility.
They were saved when they didn't even believe in Christ's resurrection?
These folk would not be saved according to New Covenant standard until they were Baptized with the Holy Ghost.
While we would not call all of them lost, because there are clearly members of the Elect in this group, even so they were not eternally redeemed believers...
...they were Old Testament unbelievers. That was the reason for posting the Scripture.
Judas was lost, no one debates that, not realistically, and Judas sat under Christ's teaching for three years. Do you think Judas was taught how to live a good life?
Show me one person that actually understood and believed the Gospel prior to Pentecost, John.
Continued...
And the fact is that John saved no-one.
Disciples of John still needed to be saved.
Acts 19 illustrates that:
Acts 19
King James Version (KJV)
1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Whether they were disciples of John or no, many of John's disciples were instructed to believe on Christ.
But let's look at your statement again:
The Pharisees were not disciples of John. It would not have been until they became disciples through obedience to his doctrine we could say that.
And how is one made a disciple? Is it not through the Doctrine of the One they seek to be a disciple of? To learn of?
C'mon, John, he did tell them how to live.
What they were doing was bad, what they needed to do was good.
Here is another similar example:
Matthew 23:24-26
King James Version (KJV)
24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Would you exclude that as saying...live a good life?
Continued...
How about to everyone that the Word of God was given to? The very Word of God that demands that men be in obedience to God's will, which results in a good life.
The relevance of the above passage is stated already. I can only suggest that you go back to see the context of the statement...
These were disciples of John, and we see in Luke that Christ's ministry extended to people in that crowd.
I seem to remember showing Christ ministering to John's crowd. Hate the collapse feature.
Instead of posting that Scripture again, I will simply reiterate the point that these were not people who were saved, they were merely John's disciples, and John did not save the first person, least of all himself. He died not sure if Jesus was the Christ or not.
And these people were taught how to live good lives in order to escape judgment for bad lives.
That is simply irrefutable.
No, John, Hebrews, the entire Book...is to Hebrews. And many of the warnings and teachings are directly focused on those Hebrews embracing Christ and the New Covenant.
This Book does is not exclusively speaking about born again believers.
The warning in Hebrews 3 and 4 states "Don't make the same mistake the rebellious, unbelieving fathers made. Make sure you are not unbelieving."
Continued...
It's not relevant, John, you are ascribing the general population that sat under Christ's teaching as being born again believers, when not even those closest disciples were. They did not abide in Christ, they were scattered according to Prophecy, both Old Testament as well as Christ's own foretelling of events.
Judas was told how to live a good life, and in fact went out to preach to others how to live a good life.
He was lost.
John did not preach the Gospel.
Not even Christ preached the Gospel to the general populace, and when He did preach it to the disciples...they did not believe, Peter going so far as to rebuke the Lord.
You say it is impossible for the lost to live a good life, well, I agree in part, because if we are speaking about righteousness on an eternal level...no man can.
But it is a caricature of atheists to say they cannot live a good life on a temporal level. There are atheists that can understand what it means to love their neighbor, and born again believers that can't even love those openly professing Christ.
And how is telling someone they have to repent not teaching them to live a good life? lol
No, they are not clearly saved, or the writer wouldn't take the time to warn them not to forsake the assembling of the brethren.
I agree, so he made it clear that those who forsake the assembling of the brethren would be doing something...they shouldn't be doing, lol.
And that is the case I have presented all along.
God bless.
So when you tell your congregation "Don't forsake the assembling of the brethren" you are not warning them against a course of action they should avoid?
You call it a poor hermeneutic when you are saying two things at once.
Again, those who believe to the saving of the soul are not going to forsake the assembling of the brethren, reject Christ, count the Blood of Christ (His sacrifice, which is the primary intent of this chapter) an unholy thing, and do despite unto the Spirit of Grace.
We don't have the writer speaking first to the saved then switching context to throw in a warning to the unbelievers. It is a continuous message, indicated here...
Hebrews 10:26-29
King James Version (KJV)
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Just tell me this, John...what is the "For" in v.26 signifying?
God bless.
Sorry, I'm just going to answer this post. I believe the rest to be abandoning the OP. So I'm going to get back to straight exegesis.
"full assurance of faith"
"having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience"
"and our bodies washed with pure water." (baptism)
"And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:"
How in the world else could you talk about saved people in a more clear way than this?
Then comes v. 25. So the people in v. 25 are ostensibly saved people, and the author is exhorting them not to forsake the assembling. If they do, there is a danger that they were not saved in the first place, as seen by the warning which begins in v. 26.
I'm pretty much done here. It's very clear to me and I don't see much else to discuss. If you don't agree with what I've written in this post, I don't see what else there is to discuss. We then part in a friendly way from the subject, hopefully.
Sorry, I'm a grammar prof (Eng. 101 and Greek 101). The grammar of 10:25 is imperative not a warning. The warning comes after the "for" of v. 26. Warnings in Greek are "If...then" statements, not imperatives.
Of course "those who believe" can forsake the assembling, whether involuntarily (a paraplegic) or voluntarily (someone who becomes bitter). It happens all the time.
Aha. You admit he is speaking first to the saved. Note in vv. 22-23:
"full assurance of faith"
"having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience"
"and our bodies washed with pure water." (baptism)
"And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:"
How in the world else could you talk about saved people in a more clear way than this?
Then comes v. 25. So the people in v. 25 are ostensibly saved people, and the author is exhorting them not to forsake the assembling. If they do, there is a danger that they were not saved in the first place, as seen by the warning which begins in v. 26.
It signifies the warning coming to all, including the saved and the possibly unsaved. There is no way for the author to tell who is saved and who is unsaved, so the warning is to all.
I'm pretty much done here. It's very clear to me and I don't see much else to discuss. If you don't agree with what I've written in this post, I don't see what else there is to discuss. We then part in a friendly way from the subject, hopefully.