The Assembling of the Brethren (Hebrews 10:25)

[Darrell C]

Sorry, I'm just going to answer this post. I believe the rest to be abandoning the OP. So I'm going to get back to straight exegesis.

The "rest" deals with the side issues that have arisen, the OP has been the focus in all of the posts.

Now, on to the exegesis.

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So when you tell your congregation "Don't forsake the assembling of the brethren" you are not warning them against a course of action they should avoid?
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Sorry, I'm a grammar prof (Eng. 101 and Greek 101). The grammar of 10:25 is imperative not a warning.

So because you are a grammar professor you can exclude v.25 from v.26?

The warning comes after the "for" of v. 26. Warnings in Greek are "If...then" statements, not imperatives.

But it does not connect his statements prior to that to what he states in v.26?

You call it a poor hermeneutic when you are saying two things at once.

And that is really the focus of the OP: you are saying that he is saying two things at once.

And I am saying that is not the case, the same audience is receiving one message, not two.

Again, those who believe to the saving of the soul are not going to forsake the assembling of the brethren, reject Christ, count the Blood of Christ (His sacrifice, which is the primary intent of this chapter) an unholy thing, and do despite unto the Spirit of Grace.
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Of course "those who believe" can forsake the assembling, whether involuntarily (a paraplegic) or voluntarily (someone who becomes bitter).

And I have asked you several times, John...

...can true believers trod underfoot the Son of God, count the Blood of the Covenant wherewith He was sanctified an unholy thing, and do despite unto the Spirit of Grace?

I am sorry that you are through with this discussion, but even more sorry you have not answered this question.

What you are saying is that there were those who were/had...

...full assurance of faith"
"having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience"
"and our bodies washed with pure water."...

That could end up rejecting Christ.

In view is rejection, and as pointed out several times already it is not just sin believers commit, but apostasy in view.

It happens all the time.

It never happens for those who are born again.

Those who forsake the assembling of the brethren in apostate manner were never saved to begin with.

Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

We don't have the writer speaking first to the saved then switching context to throw in a warning to the unbelievers. It is a continuous message, indicated here...
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Aha. You admit he is speaking first to the saved.

No John, I didn't, lol: We don't have the writer speaking first to the saved then switching context to throw in a warning to the unbelievers.

One audience, one message.

Note in vv. 22-23:
"full assurance of faith"
"having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience"
"and our bodies washed with pure water." (baptism)
"And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:"

Great, but note it all starts with the same warning given in Hebrews 3-4:


Hebrews 10:22

King James Version (KJV)

22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

If you don't see that as a warning, fine, perhaps we have a different view of what a warning is.

But what we can say is that in view is what I see as a warning and you see as an exhortation which has it's contrast with this...


Hebrews 10:39

King James Version (KJV)

39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

(see the link)

We see a similar statement in another warning given to the Hebrews (which does not either assume regenerate believers) here...


Hebrews 6:8-10

King James Version (KJV)

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.


And here:


Hebrews 3:12-14

King James Version (KJV)

12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;


And here:


Hebrews 2

King James Version (KJV)

2 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.

2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;

3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;


Characteristics of salvation does not mean the writer does not warn of the possibility of apostasy in those who were part of the Assembly. Again, it is no different than Christ's teaching in regards to tares among wheat.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Note in vv. 22-23:
"full assurance of faith"
"having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience"
"and our bodies washed with pure water." (baptism)
"And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:"


How in the world else could you talk about saved people in a more clear way than this?

Rather, how else could you better talk about the average congregation? Who would do well being warned they must draw near with a true heart, that they not draw back unto perdition.

Then comes v. 25. So the people in v. 25 are ostensibly saved people, and the author is exhorting them not to forsake the assembling.

Okay, lol, then we will agree this is an exhortation.

I notice you did not mention the exhortation to draw near with a true heart. Why is that?

If they do, there is a danger that they were not saved in the first place,

Not just a danger, but a likelihood. That is the entire point. He clarifies this in vv.26-29, by pointing out that those that rejected the First Covenant were punished, and those rejecting Christ, His Sacrifice, and resisted the Holy Ghost would fave more severe punishment.

Just as he parallels unbelief in Chs.3-4 between the Covenants, even so he does the same thing here.

In Chs.5-6 he exhorts his brethren to progress from the Foundational Principles of the Doctrine of Christ to that which is Complete.

as seen by the warning which begins in v. 26.

And I believe the warning begins with "Draw near with a true heart" and ends with reference to those who do draw back unto perdition, who do become apostate. And their apostasy has them returning to the sacrifices of the Law.

Chapter Ten is specifically focused in the Sacrifice of Christ and the contrast between His offering and the offering under the Law.

Just tell me this, John...what is the "For" in v.26 signifying?
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It signifies the warning coming to all, including the saved and the possibly unsaved.

Well, I am not a Professor of Grammar but I would ask you to tell me if this is incorrect:

γάρ gár, gar; a primary particle; properly, assigning a reason (used in argument, explanation or intensification; often with other particles):—and, as, because (that), but, even, for, indeed, no doubt, seeing, then, therefore, verily, what, why, yet.

(see link)

Of course, this is my last day so if you did decide to respond I will have to get that response when and if I return.

The Strong's page for Hebrews 10:26 is found here.

There is no way for the author to tell who is saved and who is unsaved, so the warning is to all.

And that has been my point, except to say that the warning not to forsake the assembling of the brethren is tied to the warning to draw near with a true heart that one not fall under judgment as an apostate. You call it exhortation but I see that it warns against false profession.

I'm pretty much done here. It's very clear to me and I don't see much else to discuss. If you don't agree with what I've written in this post, I don't see what else there is to discuss. We then part in a friendly way from the subject, hopefully.

I certainly hope we can part on friendly terms, lol.

May be back at some point John, and if not, may God bless your ministry.


God bless.

 

[John of Japan]

The "rest" deals with the side issues that have arisen, the OP has been the focus in all of the posts.

Fine, but I'm in the midst of a very busy week, with our church having our missions conference and youth conference in the same week, while I am teaching my normal 9 credit hours. So my response here must be very limited.

So because you are a grammar professor you can exclude v.25 from v.26?

No, but because I am a Greek teacher and practice grammatical-historical hermeneutics I can point out that the word "for" (γὰρ) does not occur until after v. 25, making vv. 22-25 a unit--something you have not dealt with yet.

And I have asked you several times, John...

...can true believers trod underfoot the Son of God, count the Blood of the Covenant wherewith He was sanctified an unholy thing, and do despite unto the Spirit of Grace?

Of course not, don't be ridiculous. (I thought that question was rhetorical.) But that does not negate my interpretation in any way, shape or form.

I am sorry that you are through with this discussion, but even more sorry you have not answered this question.

As I have said, I simply don't have the time. But if you will find a commentary that actually agrees with you that 10:25 is not to believers at all, maybe I can interact again next week.

 

[wpe3bql]

Sorry, I'm just going to answer this post. I believe the rest to be abandoning the OP. So I'm going to get back to straight exegesis.

Sorry, I'm a grammar prof (Eng. 101 and Greek 101). The grammar of 10:25 is imperative not a warning. The warning comes after the "for" of v. 26. Warnings in Greek are "If...then" statements, not imperatives.

Of course "those who believe" can forsake the assembling, whether involuntarily (a paraplegic) or voluntarily (someone who becomes bitter). It happens all the time.


Aha. You admit he is speaking first to the saved. Note in vv. 22-23:
"full assurance of faith"
"having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience"
"and our bodies washed with pure water." (baptism)
"And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:"

How in the world else could you talk about saved people in a more clear way than this?

Then comes v. 25. So the people in v. 25 are ostensibly saved people, and the author is exhorting them not to forsake the assembling. If they do, there is a danger that they were not saved in the first place, as seen by the warning which begins in v. 26.

It signifies the warning coming to all, including the saved and the possibly unsaved. There is no way for the author to tell who is saved and who is unsaved, so the warning is to all.

I'm pretty much done here. It's very clear to me and I don't see much else to discuss. If you don't agree with what I've written in this post, I don't see what else there is to discuss. We then part in a friendly way from the subject, hopefully.

 

[wpe3bql]

Rather, how else could you better talk about the average congregation? Who would do well being warned they must draw near with a true heart, that they not draw back unto perdition.




Okay, lol, then we will agree this is an exhortation.

I notice you did not mention the exhortation to draw near with a true heart. Why is that?




Not just a danger, but a likelihood. That is the entire point. He clarifies this in vv.26-29, by pointing out that those that rejected the First Covenant were punished, and those rejecting Christ, His Sacrifice, and resisted the Holy Ghost would fave more severe punishment.

Just as he parallels unbelief in Chs.3-4 between the Covenants, even so he does the same thing here.

In Chs.5-6 he exhorts his brethren to progress from the Foundational Principles of the Doctrine of Christ to that which is Complete.




And I believe the warning begins with "Draw near with a true heart" and ends with reference to those who do draw back unto perdition, who do become apostate. And their apostasy has them returning to the sacrifices of the Law.

Chapter Ten is specifically focused in the Sacrifice of Christ and the contrast between His offering and the offering under the Law.




Well, I am not a Professor of Grammar but I would ask you to tell me if this is incorrect:

γάρ gár, gar; a primary particle; properly, assigning a reason (used in argument, explanation or intensification; often with other particles):—and, as, because (that), but, even, for, indeed, no doubt, seeing, then, therefore, verily, what, why, yet.

(see link)

Of course, this is my last day so if you did decide to respond I will have to get that response when and if I return.

The Strong's page for Hebrews 10:26 is found here.




And that has been my point, except to say that the warning not to forsake the assembling of the brethren is tied to the warning to draw near with a true heart that one not fall under judgment as an apostate. You call it exhortation but I see that it warns against false profession.




I certainly hope we can part on friendly terms, lol.

May be back at some point John, and if not, may God bless your ministry.


God bless.

 

[wpe3bql]

Obviously not much has changed since 15 May 2015 --- some 5+ months ago--or, for that matter, soon after the OP was posted about a decade ago.

FWIW, IMHO, this is probably similar to the debate over who replaced Judas Iscariot--Matthias or Paul--And, by default, whose name will there be in "slot 12" of "The New Jerusalem" as is described in Revelation 21:12b.

Maybe it's just simple-minded me, but FWIW, if Our Father REALLY wanted His children to know who'll be #12, I sorta, kinda thank that He'da jest tole y'all who that thar dude'd bee, don'tcha thank?!!?

--- 73's & DX,
WPE3BQL (Formerly KTN4EG)

 

[John of Japan]

Obviously not much has changed since 15 May 2015 --- some 5+ months ago--or, for that matter, soon after the OP was posted about a decade ago.

This thread was actually started on Oct. 10, 2015.

FWIW, IMHO, this is probably similar to the debate over who replaced Judas Iscariot--Matthias or Paul--And, by default, whose name will there be in "slot 12" of "The New Jerusalem" as is described in Revelation 21:12b.

Maybe it's just simple-minded me, but FWIW, if Our Father REALLY wanted His children to know who'll be #12, I sorta, kinda thank that He'da jest tole y'all who that thar dude'd bee, don'tcha thank?!!?

--- 73's & DX,
WPE3BQL (Formerly KTN4EG)

No need to follow the rabbit trail very far, but the Bible and church history are very clear that Matthias was the one (Acts 1:26, 14:14).