The Assumption of Mary

[BRIANH]

BRIANH, I think the main thing you're missing here (from my perspective) is the Assumption dogma is not isolated in a view of what is believed about Mary. It is closely tied to the perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception, both of which (also in my view) are more implicitly present in Scripture. The Assumption is the natural culmination of those as well as the Tradition of the church.

I will get into the perpetual virginity and Immaculate conception straight from the mouths of our Ante-Nicene FAthers later. I CAN show people who did not believe those; thats clear. I cover them seperate.
It is not a natural culmination unless one is predisposed to develop doctrine without historical evidence. If I am expected to believe that a church has a body of traditions that are on par with scripture; I think we would expect a little more patristic support than 400 years of silence....

 

[mrtumnus]

Used to cure sick; not venerated. Two different things.
It was a cultural thing but it was not universal. It was a segment of people; but no means universal. We have Numbers 19 which clearly forbids it for the Jews. Relics were something that appealed to a segment of people and yes we can say it is more right. Cultural relativism is used to justify any number of sins and abominations. Carting around the parts of dead people...not good.

It wasn't forbidden -- to touch them made them unclean. Along with how many other things defined in the OT??? Yet Jesus explained that nothing outside a man could make him unclean -- so I'm thinking it's hard to use Numbers 19 to call this a "sin" or "abomination".

 

[Zenas]

If the woman is Mary, how do you explain:

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Who were Mary's offspring who kept the commandments of God?

These offspring are all Christians down through the ages. Just as Eve is the mother of all mankind, Mary is the mother of all believers in Christ--even those who, to their great shame, choose to ignore Luke 1:48. That is one of the reasons Mary is generally regarded as the new Eve.

 

[Amy.G]

All of us engaged in the battle with Satan. If Christ is our brother and by this relationship we become the adopted children of God, we also become the adopted children of Mary. To claim the divine parent and reject the human parent not only fails to honor the mother of Jesus (as Christ honored her) it fails to recognize that the one person of Jesus has both a human and divine nature, and that one person does indeed have a mother. If he is our brother and God is our Father, Mary is our mother.

Mary is not my mother. I do not have a heavenly mother. I have a heavenly Father.

There is not one reference in the NT of any believer being a child of Mary.

 

[BRIANH]

It wasn't forbidden -- to touch them made them unclean. Along with how many other things defined in the OT??? Yet Jesus explained that nothing outside a man could make him unclean -- so I'm thinking it's hard to use Numbers 19 to call this a "sin" or "abomination".

I absolutely think taking bones off a corpse or pulling the hair off the skull or digging up a grave is an abomination. On so many different levels. We absolutely do not have every specific sin listed in scripture.
I dont buy the cultural relativism because Jews did not do it, the early Christians did not do it (ie Polycarps bones were not distributed) etc. Do you know who DID engage in relics mrtumnus? I suspect you do.
Regardless, its a rather moot point now. I dont suppose a Catholic would dig up Mother Teresa and pick away at her bones; surely that is at least a venial sin...not that you are a Catholic and I am purely speculating to the degree of sin it would be now.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

The Catholic church does not offer an official opinion on whether she died or not but the majority opinion is that she did die.

I stand corrected, majority do believe Mary died....I took RCIA Classes during '06 and '07.

Concerning teachers of RCIA...I wasn't too impressed to be honest. After being schooled by the likes of Scott Hahn, Jimmy Atkins and Steve Ray, I knew just as much as the teachers. RCIA was very "elementary" imo, but for some people, that was almost too much.

In XC
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[mrtumnus]

Mary is not my mother. I do not have a heavenly mother. I have a heavenly Father.

There is not one reference in the NT of any believer being a child of Mary.

Well again, I'm not sure how one can claim Christ for brother and thereby God as Father, and reject Mary as mother. Just me though.

 

[mrtumnus]

I stand corrected, majority do believe Mary died....I took RCIA Classes during '06 and '07.

Concerning teachers of RCIA...I wasn't too impressed to be honest. After being schooled by the likes of Scott Hahn, Jimmy Atkins and Steve Ray, I knew just as much as the teachers. RCIA was very "elementary" imo, but for some people, that was almost too much.

In XC
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Sadly enough, I can believe that about both the teachers and the pupils.

 

[BRIANH]

I stand corrected, majority do believe Mary died....I took RCIA Classes during '06 and '07.

Concerning teachers of RCIA...I wasn't too impressed to be honest. After being schooled by the likes of Scott Hahn, Jimmy Atkins and Steve Ray, I knew just as much as the teachers. RCIA was very "elementary" imo, but for some people, that was almost too much.

In XC
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ONLY a former Protestant would be frustrated with the lack of instruction from the Catholics because of their reading the works of OTHER former Protestants.
The Irony abounds!!

 

[DHK]

Well again, I'm not sure how one can claim Christ for brother and thereby God as Father, and reject Mary as mother. Just me though.

I don't claim any relationship to Christ as brother on a physical plane.
Christ said: "Ye are my brothers" on a spiritual plane.
I am not related to Amy, but she is my sister, in Christ. That doesn't maker her mother my mother, or her father my father, which is the logic that you are using.

My relationship to Christ is primarily that He is my Savior and Lord.
My relationship to God the Father is that He is my Heavenly Father.
My relationship to Mary is nada. She is a wicked sinner like the rest of us. She is dead. Her body lies in the grave. She awaits the resurrection like all the rest of the dead. I consider her to be a dead sinner, that when she was alive was used of God for a short period of time to bring Jesus into this world, and that is all. She is not the mother of God. To say as much is another heresy in and of itself.

 

[steaver]

My relationship to Mary is nada.

Well, she is your sister in Christ, :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

Well again, I'm not sure how one can claim Christ for brother and thereby God as Father, and reject Mary as mother. Just me though.

Because scripture does not teach Mary is your mother in Christ. Scripture teaches Mary was the virgin who gave birth to the Messiah, Jesus, and mothered Jesus while on this earth. If Mary is still Jesus' mother or my mother then she would have authority over me and I would be commanded to obey her authority.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[mrtumnus]

Because scripture does not teach Mary is your mother in Christ. Scripture teaches Mary was the virgin who gave birth to the Messiah, Jesus, and mothered Jesus while on this earth. If Mary is still Jesus' mother or my mother then she would have authority over me and I would be commanded to obey her authority.

God Bless! :thumbs:

So exactly when did Mary cease to be the mother of Jesus, and where is this concept explained in Scripture?

 

[mrtumnus]

I don't claim any relationship to Christ as brother on a physical plane.
Christ said: "Ye are my brothers" on a spiritual plane.
I am not related to Amy, but she is my sister, in Christ. That doesn't maker her mother my mother, or her father my father, which is the logic that you are using.

My relationship to Christ is primarily that He is my Savior and Lord.
My relationship to God the Father is that He is my Heavenly Father.
My relationship to Mary is nada. She is a wicked sinner like the rest of us. She is dead. Her body lies in the grave. She awaits the resurrection like all the rest of the dead. I consider her to be a dead sinner, that when she was alive was used of God for a short period of time to bring Jesus into this world, and that is all. She is not the mother of God. To say as much is another heresy in and of itself.

Surely you are aware that the title "Mother of God" arose in relationship to the nature of Christ and the hypostatic union of his two natures in one person which occurred at the moment of the Incarnation?

And regarding whether Mary sinned or was ever-virgin or is not assumed into heaven, while one may choose to not accept the Traditional teaching in these areas -- it has always seemed to me that from an explicit Scriptural perspective, the most one can say is we don't know. Anything beyond is reactionary and pushes Scripture beyond the limits of what it conveys.

 

[mrtumnus]

Mary is not my mother. I do not have a heavenly mother. I have a heavenly Father.

There is not one reference in the NT of any believer being a child of Mary.

Actually, there is -- the apostle John.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Actually, there is -- the apostle John.

I'm sure they'll tip-toe around that one too...

In XC
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[Amy.G]

Actually, there is -- the apostle John.

Could you explain, please?

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Could you explain, please?

John 19:26-27:

When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own [home].​

Here we see Mary refered to as Jesus' mother and to John to behold his mother (Mary), in which he did.

In XC
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[mrtumnus]

John 19:26-27:

When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own [home].​

Here we see Mary refered to as Jesus' mother and to John to behold his mother (Mary), in which he did.

In XC
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Agnus just beat me to it, but I would add that Jesus did not simply say to John to "take care of my mother" in terms of a material sense. He confers the motherhood of Mary to John when he refers to her as "your mother". John, the faithful disciple who stood at the foot of the cross received this gift, as do we all I believe.

 

[Amy.G]

John 19:26-27:

When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own [home].​

Here we see Mary refered to as Jesus' mother and to John to behold his mother (Mary), in which he did.

In XC
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Christ was simply telling John to take care of His mother, because He was going to die.

It is quite a stretch to say that Mary is our mother.

Christ was Mary's redeemer just as He is ours. She was a sinner like me, but chosen by God to carry Christ in her womb.

In all of Paul's epistles, there is nothing about Mary that I am aware of. Surely if she is so important to the NT church, he would have included her among all the intructions to the churches.