The Atonement of Christ: What did it REALLY Achieve ?5

[Silverhair]

No did you have a problem reading and understanding my response ?

No, did not, did you not understand the verses?

 

[Brightfame52]

Through faith. Ephesians 1:13, Romans 10:9-10

The shed blood avails nothing to the sinner if it is not applied to one through faith. His shed blood covered the sins of humanity but does not save anyone.

You are flat out denying what the verse says.

 

[Brightfame52]

No, did not, did you not understand the verses?

Okay so you should know what is up

 

[Silverhair]

You are flat out denying what the verse says.

You mean it flat out denies what your theology needs the the verse to say.
The atonement, His shed blood, does not and can not save or cause one to serve God. The risen Christ saves those that trust in Him and as a result will serve God.

 

[Silverhair]

Okay so you should know what is up

Did you loose your train of thought and not complete your sentence?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Without an understanding that Christ paid for ones sins there is no reason to believe in Christ.

I quite agree. That is what I wrote in my post above. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

A general redemption has to be understood from Scripture.

Here, obviously, I disagree. I find a particular redemption in Scripture, but I am still assured that I am saved.
I wrote something on this some ears ago which you might like to read:
New Birth (9). Evidences of the New Birth
But I'm aware that people tend not to read links so I will quote one small extract: If, as we have seen, being born again is the sovereign work of the Holy Spirit and if without such a birth, no-one will see or enter the Kingdom of God then surely the most important question we can ask ourselves is, “What evidence can I find that the Spirit has wrought new life in me? How can I be assured that I am truly a child of God?” We must be very careful here; if anyone is relying on feelings or on supposed spiritual gifts (Matt. 7:21ff), or on his good deeds (Isaiah 64:6) as proof that he is a child of God, he is very likely deceiving himself. The only true ground for assurance of salvation is trust that the blood of Christ shed on the cross was shed for you and that the penalty for your sin has been paid already.

As I wrote in my earlier post, the sinner's warrant to believe is not that he thinks he is one of the elect. It is that he is a sinner and Christ died for such as he (eg. 1 Timothy 1:15).

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Are we to understand from your comments that God was actually being disingenuous when He said preach the gospel to all creatures Mark 16:15 and that He really does not desire all to come to repentance and be saved? 1 Timothy 2:3-4.

No.

Note the wording of 1 Corinthians 2:14. It say “the natural man does not receive G1209 the things of the Spirit of God” it does not say that he can not know of them. Many people will hear the gospel message but will reject it for reasons only they know.

That is quite true.
John 3:19. "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."

G1209

of the thing offered in speaking, teaching, instructing; to receive favorably, give ear to, embrace, make one's own, approve, not to reject
Thayer's Unabridged Greek - english Lexicon of the New Testament

To say that the sinner does not naturally receive the things of the Spirit of God is not to say that he cannot. Apart from divine enlightenment John 1:9, conviction John 16:8, and drawing John 12:32, no sinner would respond to the Gospel, but this enlightenment, conviction, and drawing is extended to every sinner Mark 16:15, 1 Timothy 2:3-4.

I am glad to see that you believe in prevenient grace. It is absolutely true that the Gospel goes out to all men, but it is equally true that unless God does a special work of grace in the heart of a sinner, he will not repent and believe, not because God prevents him, but because he has a wicked, unbelieving heart. See John 3:19 above.

The verse you have used, 1 Corinthians 2:14, for support of your view does not in fact do that but rather shows that man has the ability to make real choices.

What one cannot do is to make the Scriptures mean the opposite of what they say
'The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God' cannot be made to mean
'The natural man sometimes does receive the things of the Spirit of God.'

 

[Brightfame52]

Through faith. Ephesians 1:13, Romans 10:9-10

The shed blood avails nothing to the sinner if it is not applied to one through faith. His shed blood covered the sins of humanity but does not save anyone.

You still denying the effectiveness of the blood of Christ. That's not good friend

 

[Brightfame52]

Did you loose your train of thought and not complete your sentence?

Sounds like you lost your train of thought

 

[Silverhair]

No.

That is quite true.
John 3:19. "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."

I am glad to see that you believe in prevenient grace. It is absolutely true that the Gospel goes out to all men, but it is equally true that unless God does a special work of grace in the heart of a sinner, he will not repent and believe, not because God prevents him, but because he has a wicked, unbelieving heart. See John 3:19 above.

What one cannot do is to make the Scriptures mean the opposite of what they say
'The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God' cannot be made to mean
'The natural man sometimes does receive the things of the Spirit of God.'

I have no problem with what you call prevenient grace as that is just the grace of God that is available to all people. God, as you know, desires all to come to repentance and He uses many methods to draw people to Himself as I am sure you also know. That could be creation, the gospel message or just people seeing how we as Christians live.

What are the things of the Spirit of God and when are they received? Until a person is indwelt by the Holy Spirit they are just a natural man but that same natural man can hear the gospel and believe the gospel and be then indwelt by the Holy Spirit. That is why God says man has no excuse for not knowing Him.

You quote John 3:19 as if I would find a problem with it which I do not because I also trust 1 Timothy 2:3-4 that tells me God wants all to come to Him and also John 12:32 that says Christ will draw all men not just some men. Man has been given enough information about God that all can and some do call out to Him and God will respond to that call. Romans 10:13 That is why we are told to proclaim the gospel the message of hope until He returns. Romans 1:16

 

[Silverhair]

You still denying the effectiveness of the blood of Christ. That's not good friend

While the blood of Christ covered the sins of all mankind we are saved by His resurrection. 1 Corinthians 15:17 "...if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!" I understand what the blood of Christ did and did not accomplish. The real question is, do you?

 

[Salty]

This thread will be closed no sooner than 430 am EDT (Wed) / 0130 am PDT (Wed)

 

[37818]

Here, obviously, I disagree. I find a particular redemption in Scripture, but I am still assured that I am saved.

Particular redemption should never be confused with the general redemption. Again without the general redemption no one can even know if one has any part in the particular redemption. The Scripture teaches both.

 

[Brightfame52]

While the blood of Christ covered the sins of all mankind we are saved by His resurrection. 1 Corinthians 15:17 "...if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!" I understand what the blood of Christ did and did not accomplish. The real question is, do you?

You still don't believe in the saving properties of the blood Heb 9:14

How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

 

[Silverhair]

You still don't believe in the saving properties of the blood Heb 9:14

How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

If Christ had not risen we would still be in our sin. The blood does not save. The blood covers all mans sin. You as a calvinist have to have one saved by the blood of Christ, your limited atonement, but that idea is not biblical.

Why do you deny clear scripture? 1 Corinthians 15:17 "...if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!"

BF note the contrast being made in these verses.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh,
Heb 9:14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Particular redemption should never be confused with the general redemption.

I do not do so.

Again without the general redemption no one can even know if one has any part in the particular redemption. The Scripture teaches both.

And here we disagree, but the points have been made on both sides so many times that I see no benefit in rehearsing them again. You asked for a text showing how unsaved people come to an assurance of salvation and I gave you one (post #115).

 

[37818]

You asked for a text showing how unsaved people come to an assurance of salvation and I gave you one (post #115).

In order to have a reason to believe Christ paid for one sins to believe in Him.

For example, Romans 5:1-11, especially v.8.. 'But God demonstrates His own love towards us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us,' If one believes that, and the surrounding verses, then one should have perfect assurance..

Now that requires the understanding of that being a general redemption.

 

[Salty]

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