The Atonement of Christ: What did it REALLY Achieve ?6

[Martin Marprelate]

Did Jesus lie? I do not think so. And I would think you don't either.
Matthew 7:21-23, ". . . Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. . . ." What do you think the will of God was they didn't do. I think the clue is in verse 22.

The Lord Jesus did not lie in John 6:37 either. To be sure, these people in Matt. 7 are not Christians - and never were.(v.23). Coming to Christ involves both faith and repentance (Mark 1:15), and that is the will of God - our sanctification (1 Thessalonians 4:3). People who claim to have come to Christ but consistently live like the devil can have no assurance - and that applies whether they claim to believe in a general or particular redemption.

 

[Silverhair]

Who are the 'we' here, mentioned six times? It is Paul himself and 'all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints' (Romans 1:7). whose faith is spoken of throughout the whole world (v.8).
aka the particular redemption.

Wrong it is those that heard the gospel message preached and responded to it.
A general call is made some reject the call some accept the call. The only way that your particular redemption works is if we have a particular condemnation. So the ones condemned have a real excuse for complaint. They were not picked out by God for salvation, He rejected them for no reason.
Remember we are all ungodly sinners so what makes one more special than another. You even mention the reason one is saved "faith".

 

[Silverhair]

You have stated this several times, but I cannot see any truth in it. I believe in particular redemption and I have assurance of salvation. 'The one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out' (John 6:37). I have come to Christ; He will not cast Me out.

But, by your own theology the faith you say you have was given to you. So how do you know it is real? All your actions, thoughts etc have been determined for you.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Wrong it is those that heard the gospel message preached and responded to it.

I have quoted the Bible in my response. It will be good if you do the same.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

But, by your own theology the faith you say you have was given to you. So how do you know it is real? All your actions, thoughts etc have been determined for you.

Once again you show that you don't understand Calvinism. And where have I said that my faith was given to me? Where have I said that all my actions have been determined for me? If you really want a sensible discussion, which I doubt, it will be best if you quote my words, not display your own ignorance. But if you just want to invent views for me so that you can look clever by refuting them, by all means carry on; I just won't respond again.

 

[Silverhair]

I have quoted the Bible in my response. It will be good if you do the same.

Ephesians 1:13

 

[Silverhair]

Once again you show that you don't understand Calvinism. And where have I said that my faith was given to me? Where have I said that all my actions have been determined for me? If you really want a sensible discussion, which I doubt, it will be best if you quote my words, not display your own ignorance. But if you just want to invent views for me so that you can look clever by refuting them, by all means carry on; I just won't respond again.

Look at the DoG, WCF and/or LBCF those are all calvinist texts are they not. So if you are a calvinist you logically agree with them so please stop with the complaints that I do not understand calvinsim. Your support of that view entails that you agree with those texts so when I says you have your faith given to you, calvinism, your actions are determined, calvinism.

You want to hold to that philosophy but when the problems of it are pointed out to you then you say well that's not me. Come on Martin pick a lane, are you or are you not a calvinist?

One thing I do find with calvinists, when they are caught out on their theology they tend to start throwing insults. Bad form for a Christian.

 

[Brightfame52]

silverhair

BF we are not elect until we are in Christ

False

. You keep going back to 1PE 2:24 as if it supports your view.

Yes Im witnessing the Truth with it, and you deny it. It tells us that those Christ died for, were healed/saved by His death. And you my friend deny the testimony of scripture. Dont forget its testified by the OT as well Isa 53:5

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

 

[Brightfame52]

BF I will admit I have not run into many people that are as dumb as you are, and I say that in the kindest way. You do not trust the bible so you make up all the false theories that you think will support your view. Get a life BF, start trusting the bible, quite frankly you are starting to sound like a fool.

Lol, call me dumb friend, but its you who is foolishly denying the testimony of Christs resurrection !

 

[Brightfame52]

So lets go by your view, Christ's blood justifies the ungodly. And since we are all ungodly that means all are justified by your view so as I said before you are a universalist.

But since we have gone around this a number of times and it does not seem to sink in that you need to trust the bible and not your calvinism I do not have the time to deal with you. But I did note that you did not answer my question of whether you trusted the bible? Yes or No.

But since you keep denying scripture you have actually answered it.

Christs death only justifies the ungodly elect. So your view denies the Justifying blood of Christ, even in light of His resurrection which verified it Justified them He died for, the elect. Rom 4:25

 

[Silverhair]

silverhair



False



Yes Im witnessing the Truth with it, and you deny it. It tells us that those Christ died for, were healed/saved by His death. And you my friend deny the testimony of scripture. Dont forget its testified by the OT as well Isa 53:5

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

BF you are deluded. You do not trust scripture you abuse it.

 

[Silverhair]

Lol, call me dumb friend, but its you who is foolishly denying the testimony of Christs resurrection !

I have told you a number of time Christ was raised for our salvation and you deny this and then you say I deny the resurrection. Man you have a warped view.

 

[Silverhair]

Christs death only justifies the ungodly elect. So your view denies the Justifying blood of Christ, even in light of His resurrection which verified it Justified them He died for, the elect. Rom 4:25

You really have a problem with the English language don't you. You do not show even a basic understanding of the language. It is either that or you are so indoctrinated with your calvinist philosophy that you are unable to grasp the truths of scripture.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Look at the DoG, WCF and/or LBCF those are all calvinist texts are they not. So if you are a calvinist you logically agree with them so please stop with the complaints that I do not understand calvinsim. Your support of that view entails that you agree with those texts so when I says you have your faith given to you, calvinism, your actions are determined, calvinism.

You want to hold to that philosophy but when the problems of it are pointed out to you then you say well that's not me. Come on Martin pick a lane, are you or are you not a calvinist?

One thing I do find with calvinists, when they are caught out on their theology they tend to start throwing insults. Bad form for a Christian.

I think it will bee better if you read the Confessions; then you wiill know what they teach.
You can start here: Of Free Will — The 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith

4. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into a state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage to sin, and by grace alone He enables him to will and to do that which is spiritually good. But because of remaining corruptions he does not only (or perfectly) will that which is good, but also wills that which is evil.

Nowhere do either the Bible or the Confessions state that our faith is given to us or that all our actions, thoughts etc. are determined for us. You do not know what the Doctrines of Grace are or what they teach, and you are like a monkey playing with a watch. He doesn't understand it so he pulls it to pieces.. There is no point in discussing with you because you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Silverhair]

I think it will bee better if you read the Confessions; then you wiill know what they teach.
You can start here: Of Free Will — The 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith

4. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into a state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage to sin, and by grace alone He enables him to will and to do that which is spiritually good. But because of remaining corruptions he does not only (or perfectly) will that which is good, but also wills that which is evil.

Nowhere do either the Bible or the Confessions state that our faith is given to us or that all our actions, thoughts etc. are determined for us. You do not know what the Doctrines of Grace are or what they teach, and you are like a monkey playing with a watch. He doesn't understand it so he pulls it to pieces.. There is no point in discussing with you because you don't know what you're talking about.

You assume a great deal for someone that does not know me. I find you amazing you say "Nowhere do either the Bible or the Confessions state that our faith is given to us" then you quote the LBCF "alone He enables him to will and to do that which is spiritually good." that is giving man faith unless you think faith is not spiritually good. "thoughts etc. are determined for us." God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; LBCF Chp 3 para 1 Sure looks like He determines all things unless you think His decreeing something leaves something out.

Martin I have calvins commentary & institutes and both the LCBF & WCF and have read quite a bit of them. They are not totally bad but there is enough in them to show that the calvinist philosophy is in error. You DoG are so anti God as to be trash, they impune the character of God.

As seems typical of you and other calvinists I have dealt with, when someone points out the error of your thinking you resort to insults. This to me just shows that the Spirit of Christ really does not well in you. You need to pray and ask God to forgive you of your haughty nature. What you have shown is not what I would expect from a Christian but rather from one that is still in the flesh.

 

[Brightfame52]

BF you are deluded. You do not trust scripture you abuse it.

BF you are deluded. You do not trust scripture you abuse it.

 

[Brightfame52]

BF you are deluded. You do not trust scripture you abuse it.

I say the same about you. You certainly dont trust what 1 Pet 2:24 says about the healing/saving effects of Christs death !

 

[Brightfame52]

I have told you a number of time Christ was raised for our salvation and you deny this and then you say I deny the resurrection. Man you have a warped view.

You deny it, Christ was raised because of the Justification of those for whom He died. Yet you teach people He died for are going to hell for the same sins He died for. So in effect, you are saying Christs death had no healing/saving success !

 

[Brightfame52]

You really have a problem with the English language don't you. You do not show even a basic understanding of the language. It is either that or you are so indoctrinated with your calvinist philosophy that you are unable to grasp the truths of scripture.

Christs death only justifies the ungodly elect. So your view denies the Justifying blood of Christ, even in light of His resurrection which verified it Justified them He died for, the elect. Rom 4:25

 

[Silverhair]

You deny it, Christ was raised because of the Justification of those for whom He died. Yet you teach people He died for are going to hell for the same sins He died for. So in effect, you are saying Christs death had no healing/saving success !

Read your bible without your calvinist glasses. Christ dies to save the world
Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
Rom 5:6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Christ died to save the world, the ungodly, the sinners. Why do you have such a problem with this? Those that will trust in Him will be saved. Those that do not will be lost.
1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

BF read these words carefully. What is Paul saying?
2Co 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
2Co 5:18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
2Co 5:19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

While Christ came to save the whole world {cover their sins} only those that trust in the risen Christ will be saved. You are allowing your calvinist view to blind you to what the bible says. You have focused on
1Pe 2:24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.
But you are not looking at the rest of scripture. Christ covered {healed} the sins of all so that those that believe in the risen Son could be saved
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

I am not denying 1Pe 2:24 but you are denying the rest of scripture. You are trying to proof-text your theology. BF you need to trust the whole of scripture.