The Atonement of Christ: What did it REALLY Achieve ?7

[Brightfame52]

from Gill;

I TIMOTHY 2:1c; "be made for all men; not only for all the saints, for all the churches of Christ, and, ministers of the Gospel; nor only for near relations and friends, according to the flesh; but for all the inhabitants of the country and city in which men dwell, the peace and prosperity of which are to be prayed for; yea, for enemies, and such as reproach, persecute, and despitefully use the saints, even for all sorts of men, Jews and Gentiles, rich and poor, high and low, bond and free, good men and bad men: for it cannot be understood of every individual that has been, is, or shall be in the world; millions of men are dead and gone, for whom prayer is not to be made; many in hell, to whom it would be of no service; and many in heaven, who stand in no need of it; nor is prayer to be made for such who have sinned the sin unto death, 1 John 5:16 besides, giving of thanks, as well as prayers, are to be made for all men; but certainly the meaning is not, that thanks should be given for wicked men, for persecutors, and particularly for a persecuting Nero, or for heretics, and false teachers, such as Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom the apostle had delivered to Satan. But the words must be understood of men of all sorts, of every rank and quality, as the following verse shows.

I TIMOTHY 2:2; "For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty."

1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Who will have all men to be saved,.... The salvation which God wills that all men should enjoy, is not a mere possibility of salvation, or a mere putting them into a salvable state; or an offer of salvation to them; or a proposal of sufficient means of it to all in his word; but a real, certain, and actual salvation, which he has determined they shall have; and is sure from his own appointment, from the provision of Christ as a Saviour for them, from the covenant of grace, in which everything is secured necessary for it, and from the mission of Christ to effect it, and from its being effected by him: wherefore the will of God, that all men should be saved, is not a conditional will, or what depends on the will of man, or on anything to be performed by him, for then none might be saved; and if any should, it would be of him that willeth, contrary to the express words of Scripture; but it is an absolute and unconditional will respecting their salvation, and which infallibly secures it: nor is it such a will as is distinguishable into antecedent and consequent; with the former of which it is said, God wills the salvation of all men, as they are his creatures, and the work of his hands; and with the latter he wills, or not wills it, according to their future conduct and behaviour; but the will of God concerning man's salvation is entirely one, invariable, unalterable, and unchangeable: nor is it merely his will of approbation or complacency, which expresses only what would be grateful and well pleasing, should it be, and which is not always fulfilled; but it is his ordaining, purposing, and determining will, which is never resisted, so as to be frustrated, but is always accomplished: the will of God, the sovereign and unfrustrable will of God, has the governing sway and influence in the salvation of men; it rises from it, and is according to it; and all who are saved God wills they should be saved; nor are any saved, but whom he wills they should be saved: hence by all men, whom God would have saved, cannot be meant every individual of mankind, since it is not his will that all men, in this large sense, should be saved, unless there are two contrary wills in God; for there are some who were before ordained by him unto condemnation, and are vessels of wrath fitted for destruction; and it is his will concerning some, that they should believe a lie, that they all might be damned; nor is it fact that all are saved, as they would be, if it was his will they should; for who hath resisted his will? but there is a world of ungodly men that will be condemned, and who will go into everlasting punishment: rather therefore all sorts of men, agreeably to the use of the phrase in 1 Timothy 2:1 are here intended, kings and peasants, rich and poor, bond and free, male and female, young and old, greater and lesser sinners; and therefore all are to be prayed for, even all sorts of men, because God will have all men, or all sorts of men, saved; and particularly the Gentiles may be designed, who are sometimes called the world, the whole world, and every creature; whom God would have saved, as well as the Jews, and therefore Heathens, and Heathen magistrates, were to be prayed for as well as Jewish ones. Moreover, the same persons God would have saved, he would have also
come to the knowledge of the truth: of Christ, who is the truth, and to faith in him, and of all the truth of the Gospel, as it is in Jesus;

Furthermore, Paul isnt talking about their eternal Salvation, that they already have based on the fact that Christ gave Himself for them 1 Tim 2:6
Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Hence these people are already forgiven by the blood, Justified by His Blood, but Paul means that they should be saved by conversion unto belief of the Truth, that Spiritual salvation 1 Tim 2:4

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Its Gods will and purpose that all the ransomed of God come into the knowledge of their Salvation.

 

[Brightfame52]

He finished the Work God gave Him to do ! 5

We looked at the scripture Isa 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

That word pleasure chephets which means:

desire, longing

And so could very well read Isa 53:10 thusly :

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the desire of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

And the word prosper does mean to succeed!

The Desire or the Will of the Lord shall succeed in the Hand of Christ. We looked at that its God's desire that this happens 1 Tim 2:4

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

That word will thelō means:

to desire, to wish

So it could read :

4 who desires that all men should be saved and come to [the] knowledge of [the] truth.

Now this desire in the Hand of Christ is suppose to succeed ! He is responsible for its accomplishment ! Look whats said here as to what He is suppose to accomplish for the Father Lk 19:10

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

10 The Son of Man came to find lost people and save them.”

But now, If just one whom the Father God desired to be saved and come into the knowledge of the Truth, and it was certainly Christ's mission to lose nothing as depicted from His own Words here Jn 6:39

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Then how did the Pleasure, the Desire of the Lord prosper in His Hand ? Simply speaking, it did not ! If God desired all to be saved and yet one was not saved, Christ Lied when He said He finished the Work the Father gave Him to do Jn 17:4 there is no way to escape this crucial conclusion! 28

 

[Brightfame52]

Question here :

Is it possible for sinners that Christ died for, for their sins to be forgiven by God while they're in a unbelieving and rebellious state, much like as Paul was as saul persecuting the Church ? Yes or No ?

 

[Brightfame52]

Redeem us from unbelief/iniquity !


Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

If Christ died for anyone who doesnt eventually in this life, believe in Him, come to Live by Faith as it is written Rom 1:17

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

And if one for whom He died to redeem ends up as one of these Jn 8:24, dying in their sins in unbelief, then that means His Blood and or Redeeming Death failed the purpose of God to redeem them from all iniquity as Per Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

14 He gave himself for us in order to rescue us from every kind of lawless behavior, and cleanse a special people for himself who are eager to do good actions.CEB

14 He gave himself for us. He died to free us from all evil. He died to make us pure—people who belong only to him and who always want to do good.ERV

For he gave himself for us all, that he might rescue us from all our evil ways and make for himself a people of his own, clean and pure, with our hearts set upon living a life that is good.

Yes, His Death was for that Purpose, for the producing the results of " redeeming us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works."

Now if just one for whom He died comes short of His death producing that result for them, the Redemption in His Blood has failed the Purpose of God for it, and whosoever teaches that one for whom Christ died, can yet die in their sins and unbelief as Per Jn 8:24

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.,

They are teaching willfully that Christ's Death was a failure, which makes them the servant of antichrist, teaching something that is against the success and purpose of Christ's Death for all whom He died ! 28

 

[37818]

. . . all sorts . . . .

The word of God said no such thing regarding the atonement.

 

[kyredneck]

Question here :

Is it possible for sinners that Christ died for, for their sins to be forgiven by God while they're in a unbelieving and rebellious state, much like as Paul was as saul persecuting the Church ? Yes or No ?

YES

 

[Alan Gross]

The word of God said no such thing regarding the atonement.

Isaiah 53:11 "He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied:
by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many;

for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great,
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong;

because he hath poured out his soul unto death:
and he was numbered with the transgressors;

and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors".

 

[Alan Gross]

Question here :

Is it possible for sinners that Christ died for, for their sins to be forgiven by God while they're in a unbelieving and rebellious state, much like as Paul was as saul persecuting the Church ? Yes or No ?

No. Paul was lost and in an unbelieving and rebellious state
when he was Saul persecuting the Church.

JESUS CAME TO SEEK AND TO SAVE THAT WHICH WAS LOST. (Sorrycaps)

 

[Brightfame52]

No. Paul was lost and in an unbelieving and rebellious state
when he was Saul persecuting the Church.

JESUS CAME TO SEEK AND TO SAVE THAT WHICH WAS LOST. (Sorrycaps)

So you believe Pauls sins werent forgiven while he was unbelieving and persecuting the church ?

 

[Alan Gross]

So you believe Pauls sins werent forgiven while he was unbelieving and persecuting the church ?

Of course not.

Saul was an unforgiven sinner in need of a Savior.

 

[Brightfame52]

Of course not.

Saul was an unforgiven sinner in need of a Savior.

So the fact that Christ died for him alone wasnt enough for his sins to be forgiven ?

 

[Alan Gross]

So the fact that Christ died for him alone wasnt enough for his sins to be forgiven ?

Salvation and the forgiveness of sins take place in TIME.

Although an Elect sinner, prior to his CONVERSION, Saul was a child of wrath.

"Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." Ephesians 2:3

 

[kyredneck]

Of course not.

Saul was an unforgiven sinner in need of a Savior.

This was Saul:
2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the hour cometh, that whosoever killeth you shall think that he offereth service unto God. Jn 16

Think on this:
4...Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? .... Acts 9.

 

[kyredneck]

Salvation and the forgiveness of sins take place in TIME.

Although an Elect sinner, prior to his CONVERSION, Saul was a child of wrath.

15 But when it was the good pleasure of God, who separated me, even from my mother`s womb, and called me through his grace,
16 to reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the Gentiles; straightway I conferred not with flesh and blood: Gal 1

The road to Damascus was certainly WHEN God did the revealing of 'Christ in Saul'. Saul was regenerate, born from above BEFORE being struck down.

 

[Brightfame52]

Salvation and the forgiveness of sins take place in TIME.

Although an Elect sinner, prior to his CONVERSION, Saul was a child of wrath.

"Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." Ephesians 2:3

So the death of Christ alone for Paul was not enough to justify him before God and give him forgiveness of sins.

 

[Alan Gross]

So the death of Christ alone for Paul was not enough to justify him before God and give him forgiveness of sins.

No, Saul did not have forgiveness of his sins, as a lost soul.

What are you getting at, if anything?

Hardshells?

 

[Brightfame52]

Redeem us from unbelief/iniquity ! 2

Now Christ's Death, the giving of Himself for all whom He gave Himself for, His Church Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Eph 5:25

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

So the Us in Titus 2:14 is the Church of Eph 5:25 !

This giving of Himself was for the specific of redeeming them from all iniquity !

Now lets establish that this was indeed the Purpose of it, contained in the words of phrase "that he might redeem us from all iniquity"

This phrase is subjunctive that begins with the conjunction Hina, which means:

in order that, so that.

hína (a subordinating conjunction) – for the purpose that (in order that), looking to the aim (intended result) of the verbal idea.

a prim. conjunction denoting purpose, definition or result

The word denotes purpose in the greek, so that the purpose should be fulfilled, for instance Matt 1:22

22 Now all this was done, that/hina it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

Matt 2:15

15 And was there until the death of Herod: that[hina] it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Hence, Christ gave Himself for all those He gave Himself for, that it might be fulfilled, that they are redeemed from all iniquity, and purified unto a peculiar people, zealous of good works !

The word purify in Titus 2:14 is the same greek word used in Acts 15:9

And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

This shows, gives evidence to the fact that Faith is in the intended result of Christ's redeeming death, its not from man !

So His death is responsible in the Purpose of God to bring about these results #1 Redemption from all iniquity, #2 and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

The word peculiar periousios means:

I.that which is one's own, belonging to one's possessions

A.a people selected by God from the other nations for his own possession 28

 

[Brightfame52]

No, Saul did not have forgiveness of his sins, as a lost soul.

What are you getting at, if anything?

Hardshells?

Just confirming that you dont believe that the death of Christ alone brings forgiveness of sins for them it was shed for Matt 26:28

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

You evidently must believe the person must do something first b4 the blood of Christ which was shed for them, gives them forgiveness of sins.

So tell me what is it they must first do to be forgiven of their sins ?

 

[DaveXR650]

You evidently must believe the person must do something first b4 the blood of Christ which was shed for them, gives them forgiveness of sins.

So tell me what is it they must first do to be forgiven of their sins ?

I hope you realize you are going in a completely wrong direction from even the highest, most deterministic Calvinists when you assert this. Remember, our problem is with our wills. Supernatural work done upon us will be done upon our wills - and then we respond. It is completely correct to appeal to our wills in preaching like the Bible does. That's why we are to strive to enter in at the strait gate and to improve diligently every ray of light we are given. What you are proposing here is not normal Calvinism.

 

[Alan Gross]

Just confirming that you dont believe that the death of Christ alone brings forgiveness of sins for them it was shed for Matt 26:28

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

You evidently must believe the person must do something first b4 the blood of Christ which was shed for them, gives them forgiveness of sins.

So tell me what is it they must first do to be forgiven of their sins ?

"Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you,
Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood,
ye have no life in you." John 6:53