The Atonement

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: Can one repent without faith?

HP: Certianly even a sinner can see the error of his ways in certain circumstances and repent of his actions. That certainly does not garner forgiveness by God in and of it itself. It is one of the conditions for salvation, not the entire package. Just as faith is one of the conditions of salvation, it, in and of itself, is not the entire package.

Can one have 'the first work' of faith without the 'first work' of repentance?

 

[DHK]

You sure like throwing around the charge of ‘heresy’, when you don’t have a clue as to what you are speaking about.


Orthodoxy has been around centuries before Mormons or any new Age beliefs.


As I said in my post, this is called Theosis, a process of becoming free of hamartia (missing the mark), being united with God, beginning in this life and later consummated in bodily resurrection. For the Orthodox Christians, Theosis (see 2 Pet. 1:4) is salvation.

Theosis assumes that humans from the beginning are made to share in the Life or Nature of the all-Holy Trinity. Therefore, an infant or an adult worshiper is saved from the state of unholiness (hamartia — which is not to be confused with hamartema sin) for participation in the Life (zoe, not simply bios) of the Trinity — which is everlasting.

We do not share in the life of the Trinity. The Trinity is unique and far beyond our human comprehension. We are given eternal life. It doesn't matter what theological term you give it. Biblically, it is wrong.

This is not to be confused with the heretical (apotheosis) - Deification in God’s Essence, which is imparticipable. Mormonism…

In Protestantism, instead of Theosis, we see sanctification, being set apart or made holy. Specifically, progressive sanctification is the term that is used for the ongoing work of the holy Spirit, whereby an individual is made more holy or becoming more Christ-like…

Hope that helps your understanding

In XC
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I agree with the process of sanctification. We are made more Christ-like. But the point at which that stops, and what we will be like in eternity is where I believe you have gone too far. We still remain God's creatures, as the angels are.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: We do not share in the life of the Trinity.

HP: “Christ in me, my hope of glory” Tell us why, or why not, this is, or is not, ‘in a sense,’ sharing in the life of the Trinity?

Tell us why becoming dead to self, and alive to God, to the point that it is no longer we that live, but Christ liveth within us, is not 'in a sense,' sharing life with God Himself?

 

[Agnus_Dei]

We do not share in the life of the Trinity. The Trinity is unique and far beyond our human comprehension. We are given eternal life. It doesn't matter what theological term you give it. Biblically, it is wrong.

Let me try this again…

The aim of the Christian life, is often described as the acquisition of the Holy Spirit of God, can equally well be defined in terms of Theosis. St. Basil described the human person as a creature who has received the order to become a god; and Athanasius, as I stated earlier, said that God became human that we humans might become god.

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?(John 10:34)​

I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.(Psalm 82:6)​

Such, according to the teaching of the Orthodox Church, is the final goal at which every Christian must aim: to become god, to attain Theosis: 'deification' or 'divination'. For Orthodoxy our salvation and redemption mean our deification.

Behind the doctrine of deification there lies the idea of the human person made according to the image and likeness of God the Holy Trinity. May they all be one, Christ prayed at the Last Supper; as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, so also may they be in us. (John 17:21). Just as the three persons of the Trinity dwell in one another in an unceasing movement of love, so we humans, made in the image of the Trinity, are called to dwell in the Trinitarian God.

Christ prays that we may share in the life of the Trinity, in the movement of love which passes between the divine persons; He prays that we may be taken up into the Godhead.

The idea of a personal and organic union between God and humans - God dwelling in us, and we in Him - is a constant theme in St. John's Gospel; it is also a constant theme in the Epistles of St. Paul, who sees the Christian life above all else as a life 'in Christ'. The same idea recurs in the famous text of 2Peter: Through these promises you may become partakers of the divine nature.

It is important to keep this New Testament background in mind. The Orthodox doctrine of Theosis, so far from being unscriptural (as is sometimes thought), has a solid Biblical basis, not only in 2 Peter, but in Paul and the Fourth Gospel.

In XC
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[annsni]

Let me try this again…

The aim of the Christian life, is often described as the acquisition of the Holy Spirit of God, can equally well be defined in terms of Theosis. St. Basil described the human person as a creature who has received the order to become a god; and Athanasius, as I stated earlier, said that God became human that we humans might become god.

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?(John 10:34)​

I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.(Psalm 82:6)​

Such, according to the teaching of the Orthodox Church, is the final goal at which every Christian must aim: to become god, to attain Theosis: 'deification' or 'divination'. For Orthodoxy our salvation and redemption mean our deification.

Behind the doctrine of deification there lies the idea of the human person made according to the image and likeness of God the Holy Trinity. May they all be one, Christ prayed at the Last Supper; as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, so also may they be in us. (John 17:21). Just as the three persons of the Trinity dwell in one another in an unceasing movement of love, so we humans, made in the image of the Trinity, are called to dwell in the Trinitarian God.

Christ prays that we may share in the life of the Trinity, in the movement of love which passes between the divine persons; He prays that we may be taken up into the Godhead.

The idea of a personal and organic union between God and humans - God dwelling in us, and we in Him - is a constant theme in St. John's Gospel; it is also a constant theme in the Epistles of St. Paul, who sees the Christian life above all else as a life 'in Christ'. The same idea recurs in the famous text of 2Peter: Through these promises you may become partakers of the divine nature.

It is important to keep this New Testament background in mind. The Orthodox doctrine of Theosis, so far from being unscriptural (as is sometimes thought), has a solid Biblical basis, not only in 2 Peter, but in Paul and the Fourth Gospel.

In XC
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There is a huge difference between "god" with a small "g" and "God" with a capital "g". You wrote "The Son of God became man that we might become God". THAT is a heresy. We do not become God.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

There is a huge difference between "god" with a small "g" and "God" with a capital "g". You wrote "The Son of God became man that we might become God". THAT is a heresy. We do not become God.

I am used to spelling God with a capital "G"...but still a thorough reading of my posts, one would've came away with what I was getting at, regardless of a error...you seemed to have picked up on it and asked for clarification...which is why my wife homeschools our kids and I don't...

In XC
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[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Speaking of some jumping to unwarrented conclusions

An error by the way we all make in typing from time to time. :thumbsup:

Ann, while we are on the subject of heresy, would it be just as hertical to change the de-capitialize the word "God" or "Son" as in 'Son of God?' Would it be heresy to change a reference pertaining to Diety to that of merely any man?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I am used to spelling God with a capital "G"...but still a thorough reading of my posts, one would've came away with what I was getting at, regardless of a error...you seemed to have picked up on it and asked for clarification...which is why my wife homeschools our kids and I don't...

In XC
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So does your view indicate that Justification and Attonment place the believer or incerts the believer in Jesus' relationship with the father?

 

[annsni]

Speaking of some jumping to unwarrented conclusions

An error by the way we all make in typing from time to time. :thumbsup:

Ann, while we are on the subject of heresy, would it be just as hertical to change the de-capitialize the word "God" or "Son" as in 'Son of God?' Would it be heresy to change a reference pertaining to Diety to that of merely any man?

OK - then let's change the statement:

"The Son of God became man that we might become god"

Is this any more Biblically true?

No.

 

[Amy.G]

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?(John 10:34)

This is a reference back to the time when Israel was governed by judges. They were called "gods" because they represented the authority and judgment of God. God revealed this to them.

It has nothing to do with us being gods.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

So does your view indicate that Justification and Attonment place the believer or incerts the believer in Jesus' relationship with the father?

St. Gregory Palamas affirmed the possibility of humanity's union with God in His energies, while also affirming that because of God's transcendence and utter otherness, it is impossible for any person or other creature to know or to be united with God's essence.

Did that help any?

In XC
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[DHK]

St. Gregory Palamas affirmed the possibility of humanity's union with God in His energies, while also affirming that because of God's transcendence and utter otherness, it is impossible for any person or other creature to know or to be united with God's essence.

Did that help any?

In XC
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Actually it sounds like Hinduism where all will eventually be absorbed or united with the Great Brahma. Does that help any?

 

[Marcia]

St. Gregory Palamas affirmed the possibility of humanity's union with God in His energies, while also affirming that because of God's transcendence and utter otherness, it is impossible for any person or other creature to know or to be united with God's essence.

Did that help any?

In XC
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How can there be a difference between God's "energies" and "essence?"

What are his "energies" anyway?

 

[Marcia]

Let me try this again…

The aim of the Christian life, is often described as the acquisition of the Holy Spirit of God, can equally well be defined in terms of Theosis. St. Basil described the human person as a creature who has received the order to become a god; and Athanasius, as I stated earlier, said that God became human that we humans might become god.

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?(John 10:34)
​

I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.(Psalm 82:6)
​

Such, according to the teaching of the Orthodox Church, is the final goal at which every Christian must aim: to become god, to attain Theosis: 'deification' or 'divination'. For Orthodoxy our salvation and redemption mean our deification.

-

The words of Jesus in John 10 were a rebuke (it ends, "I say you will die like men"). Neither this passage nor the passage in Psalm 82 are about men being divine or being gods. "Gods" were the judges who were to represent God's justice on earth, but they failed. It has nothing to do with being divine. I know this passage well because New Agers use it all the time.

The idea of a personal and organic union between God and humans - God dwelling in us, and we in Him - is a constant theme in St. John's Gospel; it is also a constant theme in the Epistles of St. Paul, who sees the Christian life above all else as a life 'in Christ'. The same idea recurs in the famous text of 2Peter: Through these promises you may become partakers of the divine nature.

It is important to keep this New Testament background in mind. The Orthodox doctrine of Theosis, so far from being unscriptural (as is sometimes thought), has a solid Biblical basis, not only in 2 Peter, but in Paul and the Fourth Gospel.

I am a little bit familiar with Theosis but have not researched it extensively.

I do want to comment that the union between man and God, or having Christ in us and the life of Christ, is not ontological. We do not take on God's nature nor does His nature merge with us. This is a positional union that John and Paul speak of.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Marcia: This is a positional union that John and Paul speak of.

HP: I believe that you might be the one that needs intensive study concerning your views.:wavey:

Positional union! That reminds me as a bunch of thugs dressed up in suit coats trying to look positionally like politicians. Maybe I should have used 'executives' rather than 'politicians.' It might have served as a better illustration trying to illustrate something that in reality is not what they in reality they might in fact be.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Agnus Dei: Did that help any?

HP: When the witch hunt starts, sad to say but not much could help.

I certainly appreciate your attitude under fire. You are setting a great example of Christian charity. Keep up the good work! :thumbs:

 

[DHK]

Let me try this again…

The aim of the Christian life, is often described as the acquisition of the Holy Spirit of God, can equally well be defined in terms of Theosis. St. Basil described the human person as a creature who has received the order to become a god; and Athanasius, as I stated earlier, said that God became human that we humans might become god.

Basil was wrong. That is one good reason not to listen to the Church Fathers and/or "so-called Saints." Go to the Bible. Sola Scriptura wins every time. It seems like Athanasius was wrong to. Man are you in the wrong company. I am glad to be in the company of the Apostles inspired by the Holy Spirit rather than tradition and mistaken church fathers.

I will state again, in no uncertain terms:
"The human person as a created creature who has received the order to become a god," is heresy.

And again:
"God became human that we humans might become god," is heresy.
These statements, no matter which way you want to metaphysically envelope them in esoteric langauge are still heresy.

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

(John 10:34)

I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.(Psalm 82:6)​

What has this to do with the price of tea in China?
The word "gods" from Psalm 82:6 refers to judges. They were human rulers, just as they had in the book of Judges, or judges over courts. They were judges, rulers, sometimes referred to as gods. We do the same in our language don't we "your lordship"?

Such, according to the teaching of the Orthodox Church, is the final goal at which every Christian must aim: to become god, to attain Theosis: 'deification' or 'divination'. For Orthodoxy our salvation and redemption mean our deification.

And that is heresy. If the Orthodox teaches that, it is still heresy. Christianity does not teach that even if the Orthodox church does. It is not Biblical. It is heresy. The final goal of every Christian is to be with Jesus, to sit at his feet in his glorified body and learn from him; sing praises to Him; worship Him. He is entirely apart from us. We will always worship Him. He is apart from us--always. He is the Creator; we are the creature. Keep things in perspective. He is the potter; we are the clay. Never can we (the dust that we are) attain deity.

Romans 11:33-36 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
​

Behind the doctrine of deification there lies the idea of the human person made according to the image and likeness of God the Holy Trinity. May they all be one, Christ prayed at the Last Supper; as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, so also may they be in us. (John 17:21). Just as the three persons of the Trinity dwell in one another in an unceasing movement of love, so we humans, made in the image of the Trinity, are called to dwell in the Trinitarian God.

That is not what Jesus had in mind or was teaching when he said that.

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
"That they all may be one." True believers have unity, because Christ is Lord.
"AS thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us:"
--It also speaks of unity. The first phrase spoke of unity among believers; this second phrase speaks of unity between God and the believer. Again there is no esoteric meaning here. It is very simple. When one trusts Christ as their Saviour then Christ, by the power of the Holy Spirit, comes and indwells the believer. He never leaves us nor forsakes us. We have a relationship with our Saviour Jesus Christ. That is what Christianity is all about: a relationship; not a religion.
"that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."
When people see the above two relationships: 1) our relationship one with another, and 2) our relationship with Christ, then the world will believe that the Father has sent the Son.
Christ taught the same principle in John 13:34,35.

No matter which way you look at it there is no concept of any deification of man. That idea is heresy.

Christ prays that we may share in the life of the Trinity, in the movement of love which passes between the divine persons; He prays that we may be taken up into the Godhead.

He does not!! There is no such prayer that is made. It is a figment of your imagination. There is such a thing as rightly dividing the word of truth.
There is also such a thing as:

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
--And if that is what these "saints" have taught you, then no doubt it is unto their own destruction.

The idea of a personal and organic union between God and humans - God dwelling in us, and we in Him - is a constant theme in St. John's Gospel; it is also a constant theme in the Epistles of St. Paul, who sees the Christian life above all else as a life 'in Christ'. The same idea recurs in the famous text of 2Peter: Through these promises you may become partakers of the divine nature.

If anything, it is a constant theme in John's first epistle that he fights and writes against. Likewise also in Peter's second epistle, he does the same thing. Peter describes the Lord of glory. He saw him transfigured along with Elijah and Moses. It was the greatest experience a person could ever imagine--seeing the Lord Jesus Christ himself in his transfigured body, and that along with Elijah and Moses. What greater sight could human eyes behold. But then Peter goes on to say:

2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
--Peter was saying that the Word of God; "a more sure word of prophecy" was more certain than even the experience he had on the Mount of Transfiguration. The Word of God was supreme. It was greater than any experience than any Apostle or church father could ever have. No one ever had a greater experience than Peter, and Peter put the Word of God above his experience.

Peter wasn't looking for metaphysical and existential experiences. He wanted believers to be grounded on the Word of God.
What did Peter really say:

2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
--The Geneva Bible notes this about this verse:
"By the divine nature he means not the substance of the Godhead, but the partaking of those qualities, by which the image of God is restored in us."
--I trust the translators of the Geneva Bible more than the Orthodox Church. In the saved individual part of the image of Christ, that was marred at the fall, is restored because of Christ. In no way do we ever become deity.

It is important to keep this New Testament background in mind. The Orthodox doctrine of Theosis, so far from being unscriptural (as is sometimes thought), has a solid Biblical basis, not only in 2 Peter, but in Paul and the Fourth Gospel.

You only wish it does. It is heresy. To even think that it is you have to do a great amount of Scripture twisting and contortion.

Ye do err not knowing the Scriptures...

 

[Agnus_Dei]

How can there be a difference between God's "energies" and "essence?"

What are his "energies" anyway?

Hi Marcia, sure here's an explanation...

God's divine energies are considered actions, operations and power.

God's divine essence are His nature and inner being.

St. Basil affirms, No one has ever seen the essence of God, but we believe in the essence because we experience the energy. The human finite mind cannot comprehend the infinite mind of God, which remains a mystery to man. To experience such comprehension would be to know God as He knows Himself, which is impossible for created beings. However, man is able to experience directly God's energies in the form of grace, love, and life, to name a few.

And, of course, man is never deified through his own works or efforts; the human energy must become obedient to the divine energy. Nor are human and divine natures ever confused or fused: The created can never be the same as the Creator.

In XC
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[Agnus_Dei]

HP: When the witch hunt starts, sad to say but not much could help.

Well, do we really expect anything less from DHK?

He exhibits judgment, anger, he's slow to understand with a hint of prejudice and of course the fear that he maybe wrong is what brings on this mentality.

in XC
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[Agnus_Dei]

Basil was wrong. That is one good reason not to listen to the Church Fathers and/or "so-called Saints." Go to the Bible. Sola Scriptura wins every time.

Want to present to the class a few “Early ‘Baptist’ fathers” who teach something contrary to St. Basil and the other Fathers of the Church? We await your response.

"God became human that we humans might become god," is heresy.

Of course DHK, I will forgive you for your quick to judge what the Orthodox Church teaches as heresy. I understand that using such strong language to explain this theology would present a problem, but as an educated pastor as yourself, I thought for sure this wouldn’t be that much of a shock to your alien ears, but I guess it was…that’s my fault…I’ll tone it down a little…

Becoming God doesn't mean we become all knowing, all-powerful, or that we remember saying, "let there be light." It really means becoming Christ, or becoming divine - that God's God-ness is experienced and known not as something outside and separate, but as a part of our own being. It means knowing God as Jesus knew the Father, so like Jesus; we are with him, fully human, and fully divine.

I understand this is a difficult teaching to accept at first. It is one thing to think of ourselves as children of God in the sense that, like all creation, we ultimately come from God. But it is quite another to believe in the biblical usage of the words children and sons, because their implications of likeness, growing up, and inheritance are much stronger than that. "the power to become children of God," (John 1:12) indicates something much more than the fact that He created us.

Indications from both Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition are that of a transforming union with God that makes us also Christ, at once human and divine, as Jesus was. This is the completion and perfection of salvation, to become Sons and Daughters of God with, within, and like him, the Son of God.

Since I’m home and able to dig through my notes from Catechesis, and as I stated to HP, a few posts hardly do this topic justice, so next I’ll post a little about Children of God and Bride of Christ as it relates to our Theosis.

In XC
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