The Atonement

[Agnus_Dei]

Actually, much of what you have written in this thread sounds quite compatible with Catholic thinking. Have you considered Catholicism? I was a Catholic for 38 years, so some of your views seem familiar to what I heard growing up.

Hi Priscilla Ann...Yes, I did consider Roman Catholicism and did complete Catholic RCIA classes, but before I made my final decision, I thought it would be good to attend Orthodox Catechesis. In the end it the Orthodox Church I decided upon.

In XC
-

 

[steaver]

Agnus;

I praise God every day that He led me to His Church.

ICXC NIKA

I fellowship at a Christian and Missionary Alliance church. Are you suggesting that this church is NOT "His Church" ? Please clarify.

 

[DHK]

First, this theology is far from being anti-Christian or anti-biblical, it’s been taught for 2,000 years and its certainly Biblical…you label it cultic and heresy when you don’t understand what Theosis is or that even many of the main line Protestant Churches teach a type of Theosis (The Methodist Church is were I was first introduced to this)…some however take this teaching to the extreme such as the Mormons, which I’ve already explained.
ICXC NIKA

OK, So, Theosis, Gnosticism, Baptismal Regeneration, the doctrine of Purgatory, the Immaculate Conception, Transubstantiation, and many other heresies have been around for 2,000 years.
So has Reincarnation, nirvana, ancestor worship, necromancy, etc.
The antiquity of doctrines does not make it right. Reincarnation precedes Christianity perhaps by thousands of years. That doesn't make it right.

Theosis is just as wrong and heretical as is reincarnation. And contrary to you saying so, it is just as anti-Christian and anti-biblical. Because you say it is a Christian doctrine doesn't make it so.
I have now read up on it, and yes I can rightly label it cultic and heresy. My own research compared to my knowledge of the Bible leads me to that conclusion. It never was a doctrine of mainstream Christianity. Keep in mind I don't consider the RCC or the Orthodox part of mainstream Christianity, but the enemy of mainstream Christianity, at whose hands Biblical Christianity was attempted to be exterminated. (See historical accounts of both the Crusades and the cruel Inquisitions).

The creature cannot become the Creator, or even a semblance thereof.
Man cannot become Christ.
Man cannot become god.
This is all pure heresy.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

OK, So, Theosis, Gnosticism, Baptismal Regeneration, the doctrine of Purgatory, the Immaculate Conception, Transubstantiation, and many other heresies have been around for 2,000 years.

I’m not sure about Baptismal Regeneration (We Orthodox do not Baptize in the sense of Catholicism, b/c we don’t believe in Original Sin), Purgatory is RC that came after the Split, Immaculate Conception, again is a RC dogma and came after the Split, Transubstantiation once again is a RC dogma and again came after the Spilt.

So has Reincarnation, nirvana, ancestor worship, necromancy, etc.
The antiquity of doctrines does not make it right. Reincarnation precedes Christianity perhaps by thousands of years. That doesn't make it right.

You don’t understand what Holy Tradition is and how such is determined.

Theosis is just as wrong and heretical as is reincarnation. And contrary to you saying so, it is just as anti-Christian and anti-biblical. Because you say it is a Christian doctrine doesn't make it so.
I have now read up on it, and yes I can rightly label it cultic and heresy. My own research compared to my knowledge of the Bible leads me to that conclusion. It never was a doctrine of mainstream Christianity.

Your knowledge of the Bible is no where near the level as the Church and her Fathers are, I’m sorry to be the one to let you in on this little fact…your “conclusions” doesn’t erase, again 2,000 years of what the Church has always taught and believed.

Keep in mind I don't consider the RCC or the Orthodox part of mainstream Christianity, but the enemy of mainstream Christianity, at whose hands Biblical Christianity was attempted to be exterminated. (See historical accounts of both the Crusades and the cruel Inquisitions).

I’m sorry to let you in on this, but the Orthodox Church is about as far from Roman Catholicism as you can get. If anything the Protestant Church (yes, this includes you DHK), is probably closer to Catholicism, since Protestantism is the egg laid by the Roman Catholic Church.

Furthermore, the Orthodox Church was under domination of the Turks or Islam, during the Crusades (and the Orthodox Church’s remaining Patriarch’s are still under Islamic rule) and the Orthodox people suffered just as harshly at the hands of the Roman Catholic Church…come on DHK, I thought you knew History, the Roman hated the Greeks and many of the Crusaders sacked many of the Orthodox Churches. And again, the Orthodox Church had nothing to do with the Inquisitions.

Please DHK, you really know nothing of the Orthodox Church; you really know nothing of Theosis…

In XC
-

 

[Agnus_Dei]

I fellowship at a Christian and Missionary Alliance church. Are you suggesting that this church is NOT "His Church" ? Please clarify.

No, as an Orthodox Christian we don't believe that we have God in our pocket and we would never say that you weren't Christian. If you ask me if I believe that the Orthodox Church is the Church of the NT, the Church that started at Pentecost, then yes, I will say I believe that it is, but this doesn't mean that you don't have God in your church...

In XC
-

 

[Marcia]

Hi Marcia, sure here's an explanation...

God's divine energies are considered actions, operations and power.

God's divine essence are His nature and inner being.

St. Basil affirms, No one has ever seen the essence of God, but we believe in the essence because we experience the energy. The human finite mind cannot comprehend the infinite mind of God, which remains a mystery to man. To experience such comprehension would be to know God as He knows Himself, which is impossible for created beings. However, man is able to experience directly God's energies in the form of grace, love, and life, to name a few.

And, of course, man is never deified through his own works or efforts; the human energy must become obedient to the divine energy. Nor are human and divine natures ever confused or fused: The created can never be the same as the Creator.

In XC
-

Thanks for the explanation.

I have to comment that although we cannot know God completely, we can know quite a bit about Him from His revelation through His word and through Jesus Christ. God has revealed his attributes and how he has operated in history, and Jesus has made God known.

 

[Marcia]

The first chapter of the Holy Bible declares the purpose of our life already, when the author tells us that God created man “…in His image and likeness.” We thus ascertain the great love that the Triune God has for man: He does not wish him simply to be a being with certain gifts, certain qualities, a certain superiority over the rest of creation, but He wishes him to be a god by Grace.

Externally, man seems to be just a biological being, like other living beings as the animals. Of course, man is an animal, but “an animal ... which can be deified through its inclination towards God”, as St. Gregory the Theologian characteristically says. He is the only being that stands apart from all creation; the only one, which can become a god.

“In His image” refers to the gifts, which God gave only to man, alone among all His creatures, so that he constitutes an image of God. These gifts are: a rational mind (what we call “nous”), conscience, and self-authority, in other words freedom, creativity, eros, and the yearning for the absolute and for God, personal self-awareness, and anything else which puts man above all other living beings in creation, and makes him a man and a personality. In other words, everything that makes man a person. These are the gifts of the “in His image”.

Having been formed “in His image”, man is called upon to be acquire the “in His likeness”, in other words, deification (theosis). The Creator, God by nature, calls man to become a god by Grace.

-

I have to disagree that man can become "a god." There is only one God - the Trinitarian God. In becoming more like Christ through the Holy Spirit, believers are completed as what God intended but we are never a god.

 

[Marcia]

Agnus_Dei - You said that this is an "other Christian denomination" forum - yet what you are teaching is far from Christianity. It is cultic and, as has been labeled before, heresy. I can't believe you would actually believe that. Please note that in your last 2 posts, not one passage of Scripture is quoted - just some catechism stuff that is, apparently, anti-biblical. That is really sad.

This is Eastern Orthodox teaching. I've encountered it before.

 

[Marcia]

OK, So, Theosis, Gnosticism, Baptismal Regeneration, the doctrine of Purgatory, the Immaculate Conception, Transubstantiation, and many other heresies have been around for 2,000 years.
.

Actually, DHK, I think Transubstantiation and the Immaculate Conception were introduced much more recently. I think Trans. was introduced in the 11th century. I am not sure about the Imm Con but it was not 2,000 years ago.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

I have to disagree that man can become "a god." There is only one God - the Trinitarian God. In becoming more like Christ through the Holy Spirit, believers are completed as what God intended but we are never a god.

The language is strong, I will admit, but becoming God doesn't mean we become all knowing, all-powerful, or that we remember saying, "let there be light." It really means becoming Christ, or becoming divine, and please don’t misread divine (divinization in this case), with divination…there is a difference…If I need to explain, please ask.

Theosis is the understanding that human beings can have real union with God, and so become like God to such a degree that we participate in the divine nature. Also referred to as deification, divinization, or illumination, it is a concept derived from the New Testament regarding the goal of our relationship with the Triune God.

On a side note: Theosis and deification may be used interchangeably.

In XC
-

 

[DHK]

I’m not sure about Baptismal Regeneration (We Orthodox do not Baptize in the sense of Catholicism, b/c we don’t believe in Original Sin), Purgatory is RC that came after the Split, Immaculate Conception, again is a RC dogma and came after the Split, Transubstantiation once again is a RC dogma and again came after the Spilt.

It doesn't really matter whether it was before the split or not. If these doctrines are old, they are before the split and the Orthodox and RCC believed one and the same thing. Even now there is very little difference between the Orthodox and the RCC.

You don’t understand what Holy Tradition is and how such is determined.

I don't have to. I know what the canon of Scripture is, and that is all that is important. Those doctrines which go contrary to Scripture are heretical doctrines, whether they are taught by Hindus or by members of the Orthodox Church. In that respect Tradition becomes moot.

Your knowledge of the Bible is no where near the level as the Church and her Fathers are, I’m sorry to be the one to let you in on this little fact…your “conclusions” doesn’t erase, again 2,000 years of what the Church has always taught and believed.

Quite the contrary. The ECF never had a concordance, especially one like Strong's Concordance. They never had a computer or the internet. In fact they never had a single printed book. The printing press had not been invented yet. It is doubtful that any one of them had a complete Bible at one time at one place.
With all the tools that we have today we are able to study God's Word much more effectively than they were ever able to. There is such a thing as progressive revelation. We learn as we go along in history.
There is also such a thing as: "Hindsight is better than foresight."
Don't put your ECF on such a high pedestal. Many of them believed in grievous heresies. One of them (Origen) was even considered a heretic by the RCC.

I’m sorry to let you in on this, but the Orthodox Church is about as far from Roman Catholicism as you can get.

We both know that that is not true. Its doctrines are very similar. You don't accept the pope of course. But in most doctrines you believe the same way. When I debate an Orthodox it is the same as if I am debating a Catholic. There is little difference.

If anything the Protestant Church (yes, this includes you DHK), is probably closer to Catholicism, since Protestantism is the egg laid by the Roman Catholic Church.

And we both know that is not true either.
Not to burst your bubble, but as far as I am concerned, Baptists existed before the Reformation, and therefore are not Protestants.

Furthermore, the Orthodox Church was under domination of the Turks or Islam, during the Crusades (and the Orthodox Church’s remaining Patriarch’s are still under Islamic rule) and the Orthodox people suffered just as harshly at the hands of the Roman Catholic Church

And so?? That proves the cruelty and unchristian-like history of the RCC. But your doctrine is still very similar to the RCC. You are still in the same bed doctrinewise, though you may not have had the same bloody history.

I thought you knew History, the Roman hated the Greeks and many of the Crusaders sacked many of the Orthodox Churches. And again, the Orthodox Church had nothing to do with the Inquisitions.

And the RCC attacked the innocent Albigenses as well. That the Orthodox may be innocent of the Inquisition is moot. You are guilty by doctrinal association.

Please DHK, you really know nothing of the Orthodox Church; you really know nothing of Theosis…

I know enough of Theosis to know that it is heresy.

 

[Harry3142]

A few years ago I was debating someone on another debate site concerning whether salvation was by grace or whether it was by works. The person I was debating was saying that we must obey The Mosaic Law in order to be saved, while I was saying that we must accept salvation as a free gift (by grace) in order to attain it.

What neither of us knew was that a Jewish scholar had paid a visit to the Christian debate site and was looking over our shoulders as we were debating. After he read our posts,he introduced himself to us. Then he proceeded to teach both of us what the Torah says is to be seen as the reward for obeying the Mosaic Law. This is that passage:

"If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then the Lord your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your forefathers. He will love you and bless you and increase your numbers. He will bless the fruit of your womb, the crops of your land - your grain, new wine and oil - the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks in the land that he swore to your forefathers to give you. You will be blessed more than any other people; none of your men or women will be childless, nor any of your livestock without young. The Lord will keep you free from every disease. He will not inflict on you the horrible diseases you knew in Egypt, but he will inflict them on all who hate you." (Deuteronomy 7:12-15,NIV)

That's it; that is what God agreed to do for the Hebrew people if they followed his laws and commandments. It was a pragmatic, here-and-now contract, with all rewards for their obedience given to them in this lifetime.

Jesus Christ himself nullified any thoughts of our earning our own way into heaven. He taught his disciples that they were never to see their own actions as earning them any points with God:

"Suppose one of you had a servant plowing or looking after the sheep. Would he say to the servant when he comes in from the field, 'Come along now and sit down to eat'? Would he not rather say, 'Prepare my supper, get yourself ready and wait on me while I eat and drink; after that you may eat and drink'? Would he thank the servant because he did what he was supposed to do? So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.' " (The Gospel According to St. Luke 17:7-10,NIV)

What we do, no matter what it is or to what extent we do it, is to be seen as nothing more than what we were supposd to do. We are not to expect to earn points with God, buy our own ticket to heaven, get stars in our crowns, or any other reward. Our only reward is to be the recognition of the task as having been accomplished. Then we are to proceed to the next task.

But the Jewish scholar and we Christians agreed that the only way for us to enter God's presence was to be through God's infinite mercy. Except for Jesus Christ himself, no one has been perfect. And perfection is what is required of those who would earn their own way into God's presence. There is no such thing as 'good enough'. St. Paul wrote concerning this, telling us plainly where we stood, and then telling us what God himself had done to rescue us from our own shortcomings:

"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin."

"But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousnes from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished - he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus." (Romans 3:19-26,NIV)

The salvation that is necessary for us to enter God's presence is a salvation that God himself has provided for us. He drew up the blueprint, and through his son Jesus Christ he fulfilled the atoning sacrifice necessary for our salvation. He is the Author of Justice; he is also the Epitome of Mercy. Through God, rather than through our own works, is our salvation achieved. What we do in return for this salvation is to be recognized as nothing more than a feeble thank you.