The bad theology on this board

[JonShaff]

And here is a clear statement that show a complete lack of understanding of the LS position.

hello, brother! Please help me understand what Lordship salvation teaches. Thanks in advance for your response!

 

[evangelist6589]

You can't un-ring a bell. You were openly dismissive of an essential doctrine; one that stands as an example of our relationship with Jesus Christ. You've tried to justify your actions a hundred different ways at the cost of contrition, remorse, grief and repentance. You expect us to jump on your support bandwagon in that area while you readily accuse many on this board as holding to bad doctrine. Why do many have bad doctrine in your esteem? Because we fail to share your enthusiasm for your pet doctrine of the day.

If you don't want to discuss these issues why do you start so many threads?

You sure do get excited when an opportunity comes to find fault with me.

 

[JonShaff]

You sure do get excited when an opportunity comes to find fault with me.

I'm just going to be straight up and honest, it's brothers like you that promote LS that has people flabbergasted. Not sure how you can SEE that the board has bad theology while you have two four by fours in your eye sockets.

 

[HankD]

You sure do get excited when an opportunity comes to find fault with me.

Uh, Evan brother, you started this with a fault finding O/P.

HankD

 

[reformed_baptist]

The main problem though is that those advocating for this doctrine write about it in a way that does seem at least to be saying that unless Jesus is in full vontrol over all aspects of our life now, we must wonder if really were even saved! No room for times of sin issues, with doubts, with acting as once again babes in Christ!

Can you back up that with any actual evidence?

 

[padredurand]

You sure do get excited when an opportunity comes to find fault with me.

Not really. You have bad doctrine. You get upset when that is pointed out.

 

[JonC]

Thought I would go back and just clarify on this point: I don't think it is a matter of misunderstanding your position, I have addressed the issue of not "trusting" MacArthur concerning his characterization, the greater point being that this, much like the slander presented by others concerning him and his position on Lordship Salvation, leaves an impression on the public. And sad to say, friendship often wins over truth, meaning, if one member likes another, and "trusts" what they say, when something is said they take it for granted that truth has been presented.

And quite often it has not.

So if we are going to discuss Lordship Salvation, and MacArthur, or anyone else for that matter, then you, as a Moderator, are held to a higher standard than the members here, because it is up to you, my friend, to make sure that truth is what prevails, rather than opinion. And when opinion is tainted with bias, and leads to slander, oftentimes the result is that certain members are defrauded in regards to teachers and resources that can help them, and it is just my opinion that a few hours on GTY.ORG can help a number of people here understand better some of the Doctrines they discuss.

There are things MacArthur teaches that I disagree with, however, he is one of the best teachers in the public eye right now, and has been for years. So it is ironic to see such a staunch defender of Sola Fide accused of works-based theology, when the problem is not a matter of how people are saved, it is a problem of how they live after they are saved.


God bless.

Just checking back with you. I know we pop in and out of forums, so things are easily missed. But just as you went back to clarify your point, I'm going back to clarify mine.

1. It is not a matter of trusting MacArthur, and certainly not one of slander. It is not one of friendship over truth. It is, however, one of recognizing biases where they exist. I've overlooked things about MacArthur the "theologian" for a long time because I love so much MacArthur the pastor, preacher, and teacher. We do not build upon men. As wonderful and useful as sand may be, it is not a good foundation.

2. I am a moderator on this board, but I am also a member of this board. I am not here to make sure that truth is what prevails but that we discuss differences within a Christian manner and in accordance with the rules of the BB. I will fail at the task, but I will give it my best. If it is truth you are seeking, the prayerfully study God's Word. If it is doctrine you are looking for, then go to your church. If it is an online forum for Christian discussion, debate, and fellowship then you are in the right place.

3. I am not here to defend MacArthur. The man's work speaks for the man, not me. When it comes to Lordship Salvation I agree with MacArthur in practice. The local church is to be a discerning body of believers. By this, I mean discerning what is and what is not Christian conduct - not the heart of a man. There are many who will pass the local church standard only to prove unknown of Christ and to hear the terrifying words of Matthew 7; and I'm inclined to believe that there is a possibility some outside of the local congregation, showing no discernible fruit, may be saved as one escaping through the flames. As I said, I believe MacArthur a good pastor.

4. While I believe MacArthur a good pastor, I find him a horrible theologian. When he discusses opposing views he does so by placing their view within his own context to show their inconsistencies. EXAMPLE: Arminianism holds to universal atonement (true), which means they believe Jesus died for all men (true), the logical conclusion is that there are people in hell who have been forgiven their sins (false - arguing limited atonement's definitions to reach a false conclusion). I've provided more examples on a previous post, as requested.

5. MacArthur, I believe, excels in his area of expertise and gifting. He fails when he exceeds his gifting and qualifications. This is not slander or slighting the man in the least. I suspect it is true of all of us. I do not believe my dentist would make a very good medical doctor. His insights are probably not on par with one qualified to diagnose whatever non-dental medical condition I may have. Likewise, I would not have my primary physician working on my teeth. The difference in this illustration and John MacArthur is that my dentist has not written any medical books.

 

[Rlee]

Among the many problem with this board one of which is the lack of a emphasis on Lordship salvation which I am a proponent of. Why do most on this board dislike LS? Why do most on this board dislike strong LS advocates like Washer, Mac, and Comfort?

You dislike and think LS is unbiblical yet how many here are reading the Gospel According to Paul? The latest Mac book arguing for LS?

It seems just as many have stated here already, that the main disagreement is that Jesus IS Lord, not made to be Lord, or at least that's the sore point in many of the debates I read. I haven't read any books on the topic, just a lot of online arguments. I'm not taking sides but rather an observation at this point.

 

[Revmitchell]

hello, brother! Please help me understand what Lordship salvation teaches. Thanks in advance for your response!

It is the biblical doctrine that when we have a true heart for Christ we want Him, His ways, His will, His plan for our lives. You don't need a discipleship class for that we can see that with Zacchaeus. He immediately spoke his intentions to do what he knew was right. He was repentant of his old lifestyle. Does this mean he was perfect or even had full knowledge of all things he he needed to repent of? Of course not. However, the line gets drawn at what we do know. What current sin do we have knowledge of in our lives? Zacchaeus addressed exactly what he knew of.

When Jesus is Lord (the act of being willing to submit to His rule) of our lives we want to be in that submission. When we have been born again or regenerated our hearts lean toward Christ rather than away from Him. That leaning toward does not require a discipleship class it comes with repentance and salvation.F

Too many people who call themselves Christians want to escape the final judgement so they give a mental assent to the fact that Christ died for them. They want to rely on that to escape the judgment of God but they have no real heart leaning toward Christ. They still are not willing to submit any part of their lives to Him. The rich young ruler is a clear example of that. He walked away sorrowful.

So the line is drawn at three things:

1. Repenting of the things you know you need to repent of. (Matthew 3:8; Luke 15:17; James 4:8)
2. Having a heart that leans toward God and desiring His best. (Acts 3:19)
3. Being willing to submit to His authority. (Matthew 12:50; Romans 8:7)

Now further sanctification or growing in the Lord does not produce repentance nor does it produce submission. It cannot for that is not its nature. It is not until we repent and submit that we can begin to grow. We cannot be discipled if we have not submitted our will to God. There were some disciples that said some of what Jesus taught we to "hard" to hear. Scripture says at that point they did not follow after Him anymore (John 6:60).

Now your question is one of derision and most of the time I do not answer such questions. Here in this case I have.

Further, someone else posted the idea that one cannot make Christ Lord because He is always Lord. This is both correct and incorrect at the same time. Christ is Lord, as God is sovereign, but that is not the only context in which that phrase is used. We need to be more honest about its use. The other context is when we intentionally submit to God. We can choose, here and right now, to submit or not to submit. We can choose to repent or not to repent. Failure to do those things means we have not made Him Lord over our lives in our minds. It means we have not leaned toward Him and are still turning our backs to Him.

I hope this helps you gain a new and correct perspective on this issue.

 

[HankD]

...
Further, someone else posted the idea that one cannot make Christ Lord because He is always Lord. This is both correct and incorrect at the same time. Christ is Lord, as God is sovereign, but that is not the only context in which that phrase is used. We need to be more honest about its use. The other context is when we intentionally submit to God. We can choose, here and right now, to submit or not to submit. We can choose to repent or not to repent. Failure to do those things means we have not made Him Lord over our lives in our minds. It means we have not leaned toward Him and are still turning our backs to Him.

Personally I never had to "make" Jesus Christ Lord of my life.

While far from perfect, I never doubted or questioned it.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

HankD

 

[JonShaff]

It is the biblical doctrine that when we have a true heart for Christ we want Him, His ways, His will, His plan for our lives. You don't need a discipleship class for that we can see that with Zacchaeus. He immediately spoke his intentions to do what he knew was right. He was repentant of his old lifestyle. Does this mean he was perfect or even had full knowledge of all things he he needed to repent of? Of course not. However, the line gets drawn at what we do know. What current sin do we have knowledge of in our lives? Zacchaeus addressed exactly what he knew of.

When Jesus is Lord (the act of being willing to submit to His rule) of our lives we want to be in that submission. When we have been born again or regenerated our hearts lean toward Christ rather than away from Him. That leaning toward does not require a discipleship class it comes with repentance and salvation.F

Too many people who call themselves Christians want to escape the final judgement so they give a mental assent to the fact that Christ died for them. They want to rely on that to escape the judgment of God but they have no real heart leaning toward Christ. They still are not willing to submit any part of their lives to Him. The rich young ruler is a clear example of that. He walked away sorrowful.

So the line is drawn at three things:

1. Repenting of the things you know you need to repent of. (Matthew 3:8; Luke 15:17; James 4:8)
2. Having a heart that leans toward God and desiring His best. (Acts 3:19)
3. Being willing to submit to His authority. (Matthew 12:50; Romans 8:7)

Now further sanctification or growing in the Lord does not produce repentance nor does it produce submission. It cannot for that is not its nature. It is not until we repent and submit that we can begin to grow. We cannot be discipled if we have not submitted our will to God. There were some disciples that said some of what Jesus taught we to "hard" to hear. Scripture says at that point they did not follow after Him anymore (John 6:60).

Now your question is one of derision and most of the time I do not answer such questions. Here in this case I have.

Further, someone else posted the idea that one cannot make Christ Lord because He is always Lord. This is both correct and incorrect at the same time. Christ is Lord, as God is sovereign, but that is not the only context in which that phrase is used. We need to be more honest about its use. The other context is when we intentionally submit to God. We can choose, here and right now, to submit or not to submit. We can choose to repent or not to repent. Failure to do those things means we have not made Him Lord over our lives in our minds. It means we have not leaned toward Him and are still turning our backs to Him.

I hope this helps you gain a new and correct perspective on this issue.

Thank you for your response, brother! My question was sincere and not one of "derision". I'm not good at typing attitude/tone into my responses. Thank you again, may the Lord Richly bless you!

 

[InTheLight]

Here is a quote from John MacArthur's book, "Hard to Believe":

Don’t believe anyone who says it’s easy to become a Christian. Salvation for sinners cost God His own Son; it cost God’s Son His life, and it’ll cost you the same thing. Salvation isn’t gained by reciting mere words. Saving faith transforms the heart, and that in turn transforms behavior. Faith’s fruit is seen in actions, not intentions. There’s no room for passive spectators: words without actions are empty and futile. Remember that what John saw in his vision of judgment was a Book of Life, not a book of Words or Book of Intellectual Musings. The life we live, not the words we speak, reveals whether our faith is authentic.

"Don't believe anyone who says it's easy to become a Christian"

Matt. 11:28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

It is easy to become a Christian. Justification is instantaneous and is a matter of repentance as God enables you. However, it's hard to live a sanctified life.


"The life we live, not the words we speak, reveals whether our faith is authentic."

Sure seems like the fruit inspection and a works based salvation to me.

 

[TCassidy]

To my way of thinking a person has "bad theology" when he claims to believe something but refuses to live what he believes.

 

[InTheLight]

"Remember that what John saw in his vision of judgment was a Book of Life, not a book of Words or Book of Intellectual Musings."

And here we have a habit of MacArthur that JonC has pointed out--building strawmen and then "winning" the argument.

 

[Revmitchell]

Personally I never had to "make" Jesus Christ Lord of my life.

While far from perfect, I never doubted or questioned it.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

HankD

If there was a time in your life when He was not Lord and you refused to submit to Him and then you repented and decided to submit to him that according to how that phrase is used you at that moment made Him Lord of your life. (not to be contrary)

 

[Iconoclast]

Here is a quote from John MacArthur's book, "Hard to Believe":

Don’t believe anyone who says it’s easy to become a Christian. Salvation for sinners cost God His own Son; it cost God’s Son His life, and it’ll cost you the same thing. Salvation isn’t gained by reciting mere words. Saving faith transforms the heart, and that in turn transforms behavior. Faith’s fruit is seen in actions, not intentions. There’s no room for passive spectators: words without actions are empty and futile. Remember that what John saw in his vision of judgment was a Book of Life, not a book of Words or Book of Intellectual Musings. The life we live, not the words we speak, reveals whether our faith is authentic.

"Don't believe anyone who says it's easy to become a Christian"

Matt. 11:28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

It is easy to become a Christian. Justification is instantaneous and is a matter of repentance as God enables you. However, it's hard to live a sanctified life.


"The life we live, not the words we speak, reveals whether our faith is authentic."

Sure seems like the fruit inspection and a works based salvation to me.

I see your Mt 11.....and raise to you lk6 and Titus 1...
Lk6:46-49

Titus 1:16

 

[InTheLight]

I see your Mt 11.....and raise to you lk6 and Titus 1...
Lk6:46-49

Titus 1:16

MacArthur contends "becoming a Christian is hard."
No, it isn't.

 

[HankD]

If there was a time in your life when He was not Lord and you refused to submit to Him and then you repented and decided to submit to him that according to how that phrase is used you at that moment made Him Lord of your life. (not to be contrary)

He has ALWAYS been my Lord. It NEVER depended on me .

HankD

 

[Iconoclast]

MacArthur contends "becoming a Christian is hard."
No, it isn't.

Hello ITL,
IN the quote you offered it looked like he was speaking about the work of the cross being a hard work,the suffering unto death, the being made sin for us...
I think in reference to belief I think you will find him saying and quite properly that Jesus taught we are to count the cost....Lk14:26-35.
No one wants a false convert, a false professor....we want people to know Jesus as He is.....Lord of all.

 

[OnlyaSinner]

Sure seems like the fruit inspection and a works based salvation to me.

Jesus said, "By their fruits shall ye know them."
Fruit inspection seems okay, and well short of espousing works salvation. It's when we try to be plant scientists that we go beyond scripture.