The basis of God's choice

[Allan]

Allan

You should look up the meaning of change just as I suggested to DHK!:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

It is apparent you are having trouble comprehending the argument here.
You can call it 'change' all you want be the fact of the matter is simply comes back to this:

Did the person ask God to regenerate them?
Did the person want/desire to be regenerated?
Did God regenerate them without their permission or willingness for it?

If you answered no then by definition you/they were forced - meaning something done against their will

You can state it as simply or only 'change' if it makes you feel better but it is factual to state the most accurate phrasing of your view is more aptly put 'forced to change'. Not disputes the fact you are speaking of God 'changing' but the contension here is the manner of that change - that man has no choice and that the 'change' is forced upon him.

Given the logic of you and DHK it would be illogical to pray for the lost as Tom Butler suggested!

No, it is actaully more logical to pray that God would change their hearts, NOT by force but by 'continuing' to reveal truth and convict them. But then again you have to understand anothers view to know this.

 

[OldRegular]

Why pray? Obedience! Scripture says: Pray without ceasing. [1 Thessalonians 5:17]

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by OldRegular
Allan

You should look up the meaning of change just as I suggested to DHK!

Response Posted by Allan
It is apparent you are having trouble comprehending the argument here.

Believe what you want to Allan. :BangHead::tonofbricks:

I choose to believe that God, not man, is Sovereign in Salvation of His elect!:laugh::wavey:

 

[Allan]

Why pray? Obedience! Scripture says: Pray without ceasing. [1 Thessalonians 5:17]

And this states to pray for a persons salvation - where?

I agree that it means to stay in a constant state of prayer but that is a very general statement and not specific about what the prayer is to be about.

 

[Allan]

Believe what you want to Allan. :BangHead::tonofbricks:

I only go by the facts.

I choose to believe that God, not man, is Sovereign in Salvation of His elect!:laugh::wavey:

Then it remains apparent you still have a very limited understanding of anything not Calvinistic.

 

[OldRegular]

I only go by the facts.

Not Really!

Posted by OldRegular
I choose to believe that God, not man, is Sovereign in the Salvation of His elect!:laugh::wavey:

Response by Allan
Then it remains apparent you still have a very limited understanding of anything not Calvinistic.

I understand that God is able to change man's will, just like he did yours. Sadly you don't even realize it and refuse to give Him the Glory!:wavey::wavey:

 

[Revmitchell]

Even when you choose to sin today God is still sovereign in your life even at the moment of sinning. God's sovereignty is not limited by by man's choice. It is this false notion of sovereignty that creates this fallible argument over the mechanics and timing of regeneration.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Does anyone remember the "Hornet Song" made popular by Paul Levin and blind Bob Findlay? Been humming it this a.m. as reading the thread . .


When the Canaanites hardened their hearts against God
And grieved Him because of their sin;
God sent along hornets to bring them to time,
And to help His own people to win.
The hornets persuaded them that it was best
To go quickly and not to go slow;
God did not compel them to go 'gainst their will,
But He just made them willing to go

Chorus:
He does not compel us to go (No no)
He does not compel us to go (O, no)
He does not compel us to go 'gainst our will,
But He just makes us willing to go.

If a nest of live hornets were brought to this place
And the creatures allow to go free,
You would not need urging to make yourself scarce:
You'd want to get out don't you see
They would not lay hold and by force of their strength
Throw you out of a window, O no!
They would not compel you to go 'gainst your will,
They'd just make you willing to go!

When Jonah was sent to the work of the LORD,
The outlook was not very bright.
He never had done such a hard thing before,
So he backed, and ran off from the fight.
But God sent a big fish to swallow him up,
The story I'm sure you all known;
God did not compel him to go 'gainst his will,
But He just made him willing to go.

 

[Allan]

I understand that God is able to change man's will, just like he did yours. Sadly you don't even realize it and refuse to give Him the Glory!:wavey::wavey:

I give God the glory, full and complete, but apparently I'm not as prideful about my humility as some are.

 

[webdog]

John 10:26 but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock

One does not believe to become part of His flock. Rather, one believes precisely because He has already been placed in His flock.

Blessings,

The Archangel

If one has been placed in the flock, they are in the flock. Believing is moot.

 

[webdog]

I'm not sure I understand what you are asking. Can you explain? Also, how would you answer this question? Knowing this may help me to answer your question.

Blessings,

The Archangel

Nobody takes pleasure in nothing, there must be a reason He takes pleasure. Scripture tells us faith pleases him, does it not?

 

[webdog]

have a similar question.
If God does it all, then why do my Calvinistic/Reformed brethren pray for anyone to be saved as well?
God is the one going to do it to whom He has already chosen and man has no part in it anyway so why even pray for anyone's salvation?
Does this not place your will above God's and His plan and election.
Is it not true that the elect will be saved because man has no part in his salvation and God does it all?

Great questions...anyone going to answer them?

 

[webdog]

...and these?

Did the person ask God to regenerate them?
Did the person want/desire to be regenerated?
Did God regenerate them without their permission or willingness for it?

If you answered no then by definition you/they were forced - meaning something done against their will

 

[The Archangel]

If one has been placed in the flock, they are in the flock. Believing is moot.

That is not so and the text is quite plain:

John 10:26 but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock

Notice what is in focus: Belief, not being part of the flock. The conjunction ὅτι is showing a reason..."because you are not part of my flock." What is that the reason for? Unbelief.

So, believing is not moot in the text. Believing is, in fact, the focus of the statement.

So here we have an implicit understanding that belief is absolutely necessary and the reason that some don't believe--they're not part of Jesus' flock.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[TCGreek]

Paul the apostle tells us:

He is the one who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not based on our works but on his own purpose and grace, granted to us in Christ Jesus before time began. (2 Tim. 1:9-10, NET, emphasis mine)

 

[AresMan]

Nobody takes pleasure in nothing, there must be a reason He takes pleasure. Scripture tells us faith pleases him, does it not?

Yup. Let's look at what goes on here:

Heb 11:6 But [1] without faith it is impossible to please him: for [2] he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that [3] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Let's look at each of these parts:

1. Without faith it is impossible to please God.

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

This passage is NOT talking about Christians thinking "carnally" vs. Christians thinking "spiritually." There is a dichotomy between "they that are in the flesh" and "they that are in the spirit." Verse 9 says that the readers "are in the Spirit" and this is because they HAVE the Spirit of God in them. Those who do not have the Spirit in them are still "in the flesh." Verse 7 says that they "cannot" be subject to the law of God. Verse 8 says that they "cannot please God."

Now, if one who is in the flesh "cannot please God" and one cannot please God without faith, then it stands to reason that one cannot have faith without the Spirit giving it to him.

Conclusion: the faith to please God is a work of God.


2. He that cometh to God must believe that He is.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of [from] God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of [from] the Father, cometh unto me.

No one can come to the Son unless the Father draws him. Those whom the Father draws, He teaches and they learn. Those whom the Father teaches the truth come to the Son.

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No one can come unless the Father draws and teaches him. All that the Father teaches will come to the Son. These same ones the Father gives to the Son. All those that the Father gives to the Son will not be cast out. None will be lost. Since they are drawn by the Father, taught, and given to the Son, they will believe on the Son.

Conclusion: coming to God and believing is a work of God.


3. He is a rewarder of the them that diligently seek Him.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

According to verse 11, no one seeks after God. Now, we know that everyone who is saved seeks for God. Therefore, they are the exception to the universal rule. What makes them the exception is that they are the workmanship of God.

We see above that that they cannot please God without faith, yet while they are in the flesh they cannot please God. Those who are in the flesh do not have the Spirit of God, but if the Spirit of God dwells in someone, he is in the Spirit.

Conclusion: seeking God is a work of God.



Sum conclusion: Man by himself is inept to please God. God wants man to please Him. Therefore, for man to please God, God must do His pleasure in man. Salvation from start to finish--regeneration, faith, justification, sanctification, and glorification--is all a work of God in man to bring pleasure to Himself.

 

[AresMan]

If one has been placed in the flock, they are in the flock. Believing is moot.

Your assumption contradicts Scripture. Those who are in the flock hear the voice of their Shepherd and follow Him (Joh 10:3-5).
They know (have a mutual relationship with) their Shepherd and He knows (has a mutual relationship with) them (Joh 10:14-15).

Believing is a characteristic of being one of Christ's sheep when He calls by name.

 

[The Archangel]

Great questions...anyone going to answer them?

I'll take a shot!

If God does it all, then why do my Calvinistic/Reformed brethren pray for anyone to be saved as well?

God commands us to pray for persons to be saved.

1 Timothy 2:1-4
1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. 3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Paul is talking about praying for a whole host of people, especially kings. Verse 4 suggests that this must be a prayer for God to save them--even the Roman Emperor who was, at this time, a terrible persecutor of the Christians. The implication: God desires all people--even your enemies and those who persecute you--to be saved.

Romans 10:1
Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them [the Jews] is that they may be saved

Paul is actively praying that God would save the Jews.

So, in short, Paul is telling us that we all must actively pray for the unsaved to become saved.

God is the one going to do it to whom He has already chosen and man has no part in it anyway so why even pray for anyone's salvation?

There is a fallacy in this statement--the phrase "and man has no part in it" is something that Calvinists do not claim. Calvinists affirm a couple of things: Man must choose God; Man must repent and believe. Beyond that, we do not claim that the unsaved (unregenerate) can do anything to make himself or herself attractive to God in order that God would, as a result of the attractiveness, give Grace.

However, we strongly affirm that man--believers, specifically--does play a large and important role in the salvation of man. Believers are to go make disciples; believers are to go share the gospel. Romans 10:14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?

So, man plays an active role, as God's chosen tool, in the conversion of sinners.

Does this not place your will above God's and His plan and election.

To pray for someone's salvation does not guarantee it will happen. God ordains that we pray for sinners to be saved. God's ordination of me praying for Person X to be saved may be part of God's electing purpose. So, election of a person includes the prayers and sharing of believers so that in all things God gets the glory and He graciously gives us joy.

Is it not true that the elect will be saved because man has no part in his salvation and God does it all?

The answer to this should be apparent from the previous answers.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[The Archangel]

...and these?

Did the person ask God to regenerate them?
Did the person want/desire to be regenerated?
Did God regenerate them without their permission or willingness for it?

If you answered no then by definition you/they were forced - meaning something done against their will

There is a false premise in all of these questions. The premise is that man has any right over and against God. He may do with us as He pleases.

Romans 9:14-16
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Romans 9:20-21
20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[DHK]

Nobody takes pleasure in nothing, there must be a reason He takes pleasure. Scripture tells us faith pleases him, does it not?

Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.