The Beginning of the Church of Jesus Christ

[37818]

7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

A prophecy of Jesus' bodily resurrection.

Acts 13:33, God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

 

[JD731]

Another though concerning this. Is to be born out of the dead, regeneration?

1 Cor 15:12,13 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: Jesus Christ could not have been the firstborn from the dead.

V's 16,17 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

In other words if Christ is not the firstborn from the dead, your sins have not been washed away in his blood. You have not been saved.

Note the following verse is chronological relative to that thought.

Rev 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,

He was the firstborn from the dead therefore we have been washed from our sins. We have been saved.

IMHO that should shed light upon ;

Titus 3:5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

Acts 2:33 states Jesus Christ received the promise of the Spirt from the Father.

Also Matt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. relative to Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

That we might be born out of the dead as was Christ.

Good job, Pertcho, Amen! The time of the new birth is when the Spirit of God enters into the body of that one who believes the gospel. It was true of Jesus Christ, the firstborn, but it was not because he believed the gospel, he is the gospel. But the Spirit gave him Life. The Spirit is the Life. He indwells the bodies of the believers. When he entered into the body of Jesus in the tomb, he glorified his body. This is the meaning of predestination. So, here is the order for our Lord Jesus. He was a man in his ministry on earth. He humbled himself and being made in the likeness of man he became as we are yet he was a man who possessed the Spirit of God because his blood line was not tainted with sin. He received his fleshly body from Mary but God is his Father. Genealogy is counted from the man. I am going to give two proof verses that Jesus, the man with a human soul from God at his physical birth, like yours and mine, and a weak physical body like Mary's because that is where it came from and Mary had a weak human body, but unlike you and me the sinless and pure blooded Jesus had the Father's Spirit dwelling in his body all his life except the last 3 hours of his life in that body. Here are two proof texts to show that here:

Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father) full of grace and truth.
______________

Jn 3:31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

The Life of God is in no man everlastingly and he only ever dwelt in two men between the creation of Adam and the resurrection of Jesus Christ, the first and second Adam but everlastingly in neither of them. Both of these men died. Both died because of sin. The first man died because of his own sin and the second Adam died for the sins of the whole world. He had no sins of his own and death had no authority to hold him and God raised him from the dead. He raised him from the dead by the Spirit of God entering into his body and his soul, in Paradise, was reunited with his body and his body was glorified and went to heaven to sit beside the Father on his throne. To dwell in the heavenlies requires one be glorified in their bodies. For all of us who are saved await the glorification of our bodied unto what the Bible calls the redemption of our bodies. This takes place at the rapture of the church, which we are all a member who have the earnest of the Spirit who both indwells these weak bodies and likewise seals them until the day of redemption when they will be glorified and taken to heaven to be with the Father.

This is what Romans 8 is all about. It is the Spirit, who is our power over sin who will indwell our bodies and give us everlasting life, never to forsake us

Consider this proof here and think:

Ro 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

If you read the previous 7 verses this is because the carnal mind is concerned with things of the flesh and does not think on the things of God.

(Excerpt)
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

And here is what he says about the Spirit of God:

Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

So, the Spirit is the Life of God! It is told us here.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

If the body does not have the Spirit of Christ and God in it it is dead. However that does not mean the body is ready for burial. It must be quickened, given life, by the Spirit entering into it for it to live. That is what we are told. Therefore the meaning of death is separation from God and the new birth take place when the Spirit of God enters the body. So says this passage of scripture. Look!

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Reason and logic. In V 14 the man with the Spirit indwelling his body is born again and is a son of God. That is what a birth does. It gives one the status of Son by giving one the nature of the Father. Now we are in the Father's image and the whole trinity is equally involved.

We are not yet glorified like Jesus is and we are not yet in heaven with the Father like Jesus is but a new glorified body is the promise of God and is our hope. It says so right here in this chapter. We must wait until the last soul is saved and the heavenly family is complete when we will all be glorified together as one and taken to heaven where we will be with our Lord forever.

Consider the future glorification in these last couple verses;

) 1
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

) 2
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Men are born again when the Spirit of God occupies the body eternally.

May the Lord be pleased with the careful handling of his glorious word. Amen! It is such a blessing to read it.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

Continuing to advance the subject of the op, the beginning of the church of Jesus Christ, I must say it is disappointing to see so many struggle with this doctrine.

We appreciate to condescending down to share all your highly advanced new knowledge with us. We're all ears.

Is anyone reading the scriptures?

And dying to our flesh, before we think we are receiving some special revelation with no Bible Words to show it.

I have quoted Col 1:18 that is clear about the beginning of the church.

You say that there is something in Colossians 1:18 that is supposed to be "about the beginning of the church"?

There is more in this verse that people refuse to believe.

Maybe, maybe not so much, once we see that there doesn't have to be any extra explanation for the plain Truth.

Like Jesus being the firstborn son of God in the family.

This is heresy, if you are saying that Jesus had a Beginning, where He was at some time 'firstborn', into 'the family'.

All the heirs share equally in the inheritance and they are all as one son.

For you to say all Saved souls are all as one son is very weird to say, much less if Jesus is supposed to be involved
and every joint heir with Jesus is also together with Him and "are all as one son".

There is a true saying about the Christian faith. Either a man is born once and dies twice or he is born twice and dies once. There is that which is called the second death. That will be experienced by all who have not experienced the second birth. Jesus said in John 3, "ye must be born again."

This true saying is not applicable to Jesus.

Jesus did not need to be Born Again.

Jesus always Possessed the Spirit of God, Who is Spirit.

Jesus Took Back Up the Life He Laid Down.

"No man taketh it from Me, but I Lay it Down of Myself.
I have Power to Lay it Down, and I have Power to Take it Again.
This Commandment have I Received of My Father." John 10:18.

I would like to say that Col 1:18 is not the only place in the scripture that says Jesus has two births, a physical birth at Bethlehem and a second birth at his resurrection from the dead.

What could be said to have been 'birthed', since Jesus Took Back Up the Life He Laid Down?

Non Bible believers will not believe this because I will be quoting the Bible saying it.

(most people do not know this but "the people" is a designation for the chosen people of God, the nation of Israel).

When the Lord speaks of his wrath, he is speaking of the "day of the Lord" when he will pour out his wrath in the great tribulation for 1260 days.

God says here that he has begotten his son.

A question to ask, "are you a Jehovah's (false) Witness?

7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

"the Lord hath Said unto Me, Thou Art My Son";
not by creation, as angels and men;
nor by adoption, as saints;
nor by office, as civil magistrates;
nor on account of His Incarnation or Resurrection;
nor because of the Great Love of God unto Him;

"but in such a way of filiation as cannot be said of any creature nor of any other, Hebrews 1:5;

5; "For unto which of the Angels said He at any time, Thou Art My Son, this Day have I Begotten Thee?
And again, I Will Be to Him a Father, and He Shall Be to Me a Son?"

"He is the True, Proper, Natural, and Eternal Son of God, and as such Declared, Owned, and Acknowledged by Jehovah the Father, as in these words; the foundation of which relation lies in what follows:

"this Day have I Begotten Thee"; which act of Begetting refers not to the Nature, nor to the Office, but the Person of Christ; not to His Nature, not to His Divine Nature, which is common with the Father and Spirit; wherefore if Jesus was Begotten, the Father's and Spirit's must be also: much less to His Human Nature, in which He is never said to be Begotten, but always to be Made, and with respect to which He is without Father: nor to His Office as Mediator, in which He is not a Son, but a Servant; besides, He was a Son previous to His Being Prophet, Priest, and King; and His Office is not the Foundation of His Sonship, but His Sonship is the Foundation of His Office; or His Sonship is the Foundation of His Office by which that is Supported, and which Fits Him for the Performance of His Office:

"but "this Day have I Begotten Thee" has respect to His Person, as the Eternal Son of God Who has Always been Generated from the Father as the Eternal Logos, otherwise Proverbs 8:30, couldn't say "always" with regard to Jesus ; because, as in human generation, person begets person, and like begets like, so in Divine Generation; but care must be taken to remove all imperfection from it, such as Divisibility and Multiplication of Essence, Priority and Posteriority, Dependence, and the like: nor can the "modus" or manner of it be conceived or explained by us.

The date of it, "today", designs Eternity, as in Isaiah 43:13,

ONE DAY IS AS A THOUSAND YEARS AND A THOUSAND YEARS AS A DAY
SPEAKS OF HOW 'TIME IS IRRELIVENT TO GOD', SINCE ALL OF ETERNITY IS ONE CONTIUIOUS DAY WITH GOD.

There is no application where a mathematical formula could include this expression by only quoting half of it.
That would be a half truth, or whole lie. To say a 'day' is supposed to be equal to "a thousand years" is not what that verse says whatsoever and it is impossible to use by itself, without adding "and a thousand years are as a day".

"This Day" means that Day which is one Continued Day, an Everlasting Now. And this may be applied to any time and case in which Christ is Declared to be the Son of God; as at His Incarnation, His Baptism, and Transfiguration upon the Mount, and His Resurrection from the dead, as it is in Acts 13:33, see below; because then He was Declared to be the Son of God with Power, Romans 1:4, see below; and to His Ascension into Heaven, where He was Made Lord and Christ, and His Divine Sonship more Manifestly Appeared; which seems to be the time and case more especially referred to here, if it be compared with Hebrews 1:3, see below.

Con't.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

"The words cited by the Apostle are, "Thou Art My Son, this Day have I Begotten Thee";...

"The words are to be understood of the Eternal Filiation of Christ, and are produced, to set forth the Greatness and Dignity of His Person; Whom God had Raised and Sent Forth in Human Nature, to be the Savior and Redeemer of His people:

"though should they be applied to the Resurrection of Christ from the dead, it will no ways prejudice the Doctrine of Christ's Proper and Natural Eternal Sonship, as being the Only Begotten of the Father;

"since the Resurrection of Christ is not the cause of Jesus' Sonship, or the reason why He is called the Son of God, but a Manifestation of Jesus as Being the Son of God is displayed in His Resurrection;

"Christ was the Son of God, before His Resurrection from the dead;

Jesus was declared to be "My Beloved Son" by the Voice of God the Father from Heaven, was believed on by His Disciples as Being the Son of God, and confessed by others, both men and devils: besides, if His Resurrection was the Cause of Jesus' Sonship, He had to have Beget Himself, which is absurd, because He was Himself concerned in His Resurrection from the dead;

"No man taketh it from Me, but I Lay it Down of Myself.
I have Power to Lay it Down, and I have Power to Take it again.
This Commandment have I Received of My Father." John 10:18.

"more over, His Sonship would not be proper, or real, but figurative and metaphorical only, whereas Jesus is God's Own, or Proper Son; besides, on this account He could not be called God's Only Begotten Son, because there are others that have been, and millions that will be Raised from the dead besides Him: but the reason why these words are applied to the Resurrection of Christ, by some, if we allow the concession for them to do so, it is not, and can't be, because He was then Begotten for the first time, as the Son of God, but because Jesus was then Manifested and Shown at that time to be the Eternally Begotten Son of God;

Often, "things are said to be, when they are only Manifested or being shown to be; so it is when Christ is said to be that Day Begotten, because He was SHOWN, OR PROVEN and

"Declared to be the Son of God with Power, by the Resurrection from the dead", Romans 1:4.

"Hence these words are applicable to any time or thing wherein Christ is Manifested to be the Only Begotten Son of God, and are accordingly applied to different times and things; see Hebrews 1:3.

3 "The Son is the Radiance of God’s Glory and the Exact Representation of His Nature,
Upholding all things by His Powerful Word.
After He had Provided Purification for sins,
He Sat Down at the Right Hand of the Majesty on High."

Who will believe this second Psalm is speaking of the second birth of Jesus?

I believe that I would willfully call "speaking of the second birth of Jesus", blasphemous, the way I see what you're saying.

Consider this verse in Romans 1, an epistle that is an outline of the seven dispensations if there ever was one.

All seven of the presumed "seven dispensations" are purely arbitrary and not needed nor can possibly defined as being unique unto themselves to any significant extent whatsoever and the seventh is entirely obliterated by God Teaching that the New Testament writers knew they were at the End of the Age.

"And if one who searched the Scriptures for indications of dispensational divisions were to assert that there was one dispensation that extended from Abraham to David, another from David to the Babylonian captivity, and another from the Babylonian captivity to Christ, he might refer to Matthew 1:17 as lending support to his scheme; whereas for the dispensational system set forth in the Scofield Bible there is no semblance of any scriptural proof."

"So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations;
and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations;
and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations."

"Then further we are told, in the words of a prominent dispensationalist, that each of these seven distinct periods of time has "a character exclusively its own," being "wholly complete and sufficient in itself," that it "is in no wise exchangeable for the others, and cannot be commingled."

"That is to say, each "dispensation" has its own peculiar and distinguishing characteristics, insomuch that, when one succeeds another, there is a complete and radical change in the character and principles of God's dealings with the world.

"So say the dispensationalists; but I find in the Scriptures no evidence to support the statement."

"And this a matter of special importance because, as I expect to point out in some detail later on, the humanly concocted scheme of the "seven dispensations," which we are now considering, has had the effect of blotting out, for those who accept it, the Illuminating Truth which the Scriptures Reveal concerning the Two Covenants, "the Old Covenant," whereof Moses was the mediator, and "the New Covenant" whereof Jesus Christ is the Mediator.

"Because the Bible clearly distinguishes those Two Covenants (which are the two Major Administrations of the One Eternal Covenant of Grace) and the Eras to which they respectively belong; and moreover, upon that difference depends Truth of the Highest Value. Therefore, one object I have in view, in exposing the unfounded character of dispensationalism, is to clear the ground for the presentation of the Truth concerning "THE TWO COVENANTS" (Galatians 4:24).

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/1927_mauro_gospel-kingdom.html

Con't.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Jesus Christ was born twice and died once according to the scriptures.

Nope.

Here is what I am getting to. God says here that he has begotten his son.

Does he mean at Bethlehem, although it could truthfully be said that he did.

But the scriptures will clarify it.

7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Those among us who do not believe it please tell us why.

You probably connect the words, "He hath Raised Up Jesus again", to automatically be referring to His Resurrection.

This a repeat, I believe, but Br. Gill makes several important and salient points here;

"Thou Art My Son, this Day have I Begotten Thee"; The words are to be understood of the Eternal Filiation of Christ, and are produced, to set forth the Greatness and Dignity of His Person; Whom God had Raised and Sent Forth in Human Nature, to be the Savior and Redeemer of His people: (though should they be applied to the Resurrection of Christ from the dead, it will no ways prejudice the Doctrine of Christ's Proper and Natural Eternal Sonship, as being the Only Begotten of the Father;

"since the Resurrection of Christ is not the Cause of His Sonship,
or the reason why He is called the Son of God, but a Manifestation of it;

"Christ was the Son of God, before His Resurrection from the dead;

"Jesus was Declared to be God the Father's "Beloved Son" by a voice from Heaven,
was believed on by His Disciples as the Son of God, and confessed by others, both men and devils:

"besides, if His Resurrection was the cause of His Sonship, He must Beget Himself, which is absurd,
because Jesus was Himself concerned in His Resurrection from the dead;

"more over, Jesus' Sonship would not be Proper, but figurative and metaphorical,
whereas He is God's Own, or Proper Son;

"besides, on this account He could not be called God's Only Begotten Son,
because there are others that have been, and millions that will be raised from the dead besides him:

"but the reason why these words are applied to the Resurrection of Christ, allowing them to be so, is not because Jesus experienced a 'birth' and was then Begotten as the Son of God, but because He was then Manifested to be the Eternally Begotten Son of God;

"things are said to be, when they are only Manifested to be;

"so Christ is said to be that Day Begotten, because He was

"Declared to be the Son of God with Power, by the Resurrection from the dead", Romans 1:4.

"Hence these words are applicable to any time or thing wherein Christ is Manifested to be the Only Begotten Son of God, and accordingly are applied to different times and things; see Hebrews 1:3."

4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Those among us who do not believe it please tell us why.

Jehovah's Witnesses (JWs) assert that the term "prototokos" in Colossians 1:15 suggests that Jesus is the first created being. Their argument hinges on two main points:

Prototokos is a partitive word: This implies that Jesus is a part of creation.

Prototokos means "first in time": This establishes Jesus as the first creature in the category.

However, a critical examination of the linguistic and theological context challenges these assertions. Here, I present a linguistic critique of the JW interpretation, focusing on the claim that "prototokos" is intrinsically a partitive word.

Critique of the "Partitive Word" Argument

Lack of Linguistic Evidence
The central issue with the "partitive word" argument is the lack of linguistic evidence to substantiate the claim that "prototokos" intrinsically possesses a partitive semantic value. To prove that "prototokos" inherently conveys a partitive force, proponents need to demonstrate this from the lexical semantics of the isolated term.

Misunderstanding Lexical Semantics and Pragmatics

Lexical Semantics vs. Pragmatics: The partitive force may arise from the pragmatic context, not from the intrinsic meaning of the word "prototokos." It is crucial to differentiate between a word's inherent meaning (lexical semantics) and meanings derived from context (pragmatics).

Contextual Influence: Advocates need to show that the partitive force is not an implicature conveyed by the context in each instance. If the context provides the partitive sense, it does not prove that "prototokos" intrinsically has this meaning.

Methodological Issues

Scientific Approach: Furuli endorses a scientific approach to linguistic analysis, breaking down language into its smallest units for study. However, the claim that "prototokos" has an intrinsic partitive value is non-testable and falls outside scientific investigation. It cannot be empirically verified or falsified.

Isolating the Term: To prove "prototokos" is a partitive word, it must be isolated from its context and shown to convey partitive meaning independently. This has not been achieved. Theological Implications and Scriptural Context

Non-Numerical Usage in Scripture
Several examples from Scripture show that "prototokos" can denote status or rank, not necessarily "first in time":

Isaac and Ishmael: Isaac, though not the firstborn, is called Abraham's "monogenes" (unique son) in Hebrews 11:17.

Ephraim and Manasseh: Ephraim is called the firstborn in Jeremiah 31:9 despite being born after Manasseh.

David: David, the youngest son of Jesse, is called the firstborn in Psalm 89:27, indicating his preeminent status.

Christ's Pre-eminence Colossians 1:15-20 emphasizes Christ's pre-eminence over creation, not His inclusion as part of it:

Prototokos in Context: The term highlights Christ's supremacy and authority. Paul uses "prototokos" to indicate pre-eminence rather than temporal priority.

Paul's Choice of Terms: Paul would have used "protoktistos" (first-created) if he intended to convey that Jesus was the first created being. The arguments presented by JWs regarding Colossians 1:15 are based on a misinterpretation of "prototokos." The term does not intrinsically convey a partitive semantic value. Scriptural evidence and theological context support the understanding of "firstborn" as denoting Christ's pre-eminence and status. This aligns with the broader biblical narrative of Christ's divine identity and role in creation.

The Watchtower Society's interpretation of Colossians 1:15, which describes Jesus as "the firstborn of all creation," is flawed for several reasons:

Genitive Construction: The genitive phrase "firstborn of all creation" does not imply that Jesus is part of creation. Similar phrases like "Lord of worlds" or "king of the country" denote dominion, not membership.

Preeminence: "Firstborn" signifies preeminence or a unique relationship with the Father, not that Jesus was created. This title means Jesus is the supreme heir and ruler over creation.

Rabbinical Context: In Jewish tradition, titles like "firstborn of the world" (בכורו של עולם, bekoro shel olam) and "primordial one of the world" (קדמונו של עולם, qadmono shel olam) are used for God, indicating preeminence and sovereignty. An educated Jew would understand Paul's usage as asserting Jesus' divine status, not his creation.

Scriptural Consistency: The broader context of Colossians 1, particularly verses 16-17, shows Jesus as the agent of creation, reinforcing His preeminence and excluding the interpretation that He is a created being. The text states all things were created in Him, through Him, and for Him.

Biblical Examples: The term "firstborn" in the Bible often indicates rank and privilege. David, though the youngest son, is called "firstborn" due to his preeminent position (Psalm 89:27). This supports the interpretation of "firstborn" as indicating status rather than chronological order.

The term "firstborn of all creation" in Colossians 1:15 indicates Jesus' supreme authority and preeminence over all creation. It does not imply that He is part of creation but rather that He is its sovereign Lord. This interpretation aligns with the broader scriptural context and Jewish understanding of the term.

In light of these findings, it is essential to approach the Bible with an open mind and honor the full identity of Christ as revealed in Scripture. This includes recognizing the comprehensive nature of the divine relationship within the Trinity and valuing the Son "just as" the Father (John 5:23).

See the entire examination in the attached .txt document

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

The Authority of God John the Baptist had been Given to baptize:

Mark 11:27; "And they come again to Jerusalem: and as He was walking in the Temple,
there come to Him the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders,

28; "And say unto Him, By what authority doest thou these things?
and who gave thee this authority to do these things?

29; "And Jesus Answered and said unto them,
I Will also Ask of you one question, and answer Me, and I Will Tell you by what Authority I do these things.

30; "The baptism of John, was it from Heaven, or of men? answer Me.

31; "And they reasoned with themselves, saying,
If we shall say, From Heaven; He will say, Why then did ye not believe Him?
32; "But if we shall say, Of men; they feared the people: for all men counted John, that he was a Prophet indeed.

33; "And they answered and said unto Jesus, We cannot tell.
And Jesus Answering Saith unto them, Neither do I Tell you by What Authority I do these things."

Alan, John the Baptist was not a Christian.

Every individual soul that has ever been Saved have all been Christians,
since the Time Adam was Given Repentance and Faith to believe,
"And I Will Put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed;
it shall Bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise His Heel," in Genesis 3:15,
as the Gospel was Preached to him and Eve and God also Pictured it by sleighing an animal to make them coverings.

"Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God Make coats of skins, and clothed them." Genesis 3:21.

"The Life of the flesh is in the blood." Leviticus 17:11.

The Old Testament is simply Old Testament Christianity.

He baptized Israel.

1. Matthew 3:1-2 - John preached in the wilderness, calling for repentance as the kingdom of heaven was near.
2. Mark 1:4 - He baptized people in the Jordan River, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.
3. Luke 3:7-8 - John warned the crowds to bear fruits worthy of repentance and not rely on their heritage as children of Abraham.
4. John 1:29 - He identified Jesus as the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world = Christianity.
5. Matthew 3:11 - John spoke of baptizing with water, but Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit and fire.
6. Luke 3:16 - He emphasized the Greatness of Jesus, stating he was not worthy to untie His sandals.

"Christ continued in Nazareth till near the time of His baptism, and Entrance on His Public Ministry; and proceeds to give a brief relation of John, the Harbinger and Forerunner of Christ, and the Administrator of baptism to Him:

"and He describes him by his name John, in Hebrew "Jochanan", which signifies "gracious", or "the grace of the Lord", or "the Lord has given grace"; which agrees with him, both as a good man, on whom the Lord had Bestowed much Grace, and as a preacher, whose business it was to Publish the Grace of God in Christ, Luke 16:16.

"The Law and the Prophets were until John:
since that Time the Kingdom of God is Preached, and every man presseth into it."

He is described by his work and office as a preacher, he "came" or "was preaching" the Doctrines of Repentance and baptism; he published and declared that the Kingdom of the Messiah was at hand, that He would quickly be Revealed; and exhorted the people to believe on Jesus, which is what the Gospel and Christianity are all about.

There was no church during his days of ministry.

Everyone who was Scripturally baptized according to the Commandment and Example of Lord, by the man John the Baptist, who was a man Sent by God to baptize by God's Authority were water baptized into a local organized church body's membership, like the one the Lord Founded and Continued to Build there in Jerusalem, to which had the Scripturally baptized Apostles by John the Baptist's Authority from God ADDED TO HER MEMBERSHIP, FIRST, AND THAT WAS THE BEGINNING OF THE LORD'S FIRST CHURCH HE DIVINELY ORIGINATED.

"And God hath Set some in the church, first Apostles,..." I Corinthians 12:28.

God Puts certain individual Saved souls into specific churches of the Lord Jesus, as they are Led by One Spirit to be water baptized by Authority into her to become one of her members;

18; "But now hath God set (by the Holy Spirit)
the members every one of them in the body, (their local church body)
as it hath Pleased Him.

Those assembled gatherings of Saved and Scripturally baptized saints, as "members in particular"
then make up what the Bible call a "body of Christ"; just like the body of Christ in Corinth, or Colossae, or Ephesus, etc.

Paul explains explicitly what he has been talking about that a "body" is;
27; "Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular."
locally there in Corinth.

That's what a 'body' of Christ is, according to what the Bible says a 'body of Christ' is.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

The Christian faith is founded upon the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Jesus' Saving Efficacy was able to Produce all of the Born Again Old Testament saints, to be Old Testament Christians,
because Jesus' Saving Ability and Power were His to Give, as His Accomplishment of the Eternal Plan of Salvation by the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, before He went to the cross,
because it was He Who was always as, "the Lamb Slain from the Foundation of the World."

"And all that dwell upon the Earth shall worship him (the beast),
whose names are not written in the Book of Life of the Lamb Slain from the Foundation of the World,"
Revelation 13:8.

"In the Blessings of The Eternal Covenant of Grace;
they are the same under both Administrations, of the Old and New Testaments.

"Salvation and Redemption by Christ is the Great Blessing held forth
and enjoyed under the Old Testament as under the New Testament, #2Sa 23:5 Heb 9:15.

"Justification by the Righteousness of Christ, which the Old Testament saints
who faithfully assembled as they had been Commanded had knowledge of,
and Faith in Justification by the Righteousness of Christ , as well as the New Testament saints,
#Isa 45:24,25 Ro 3:21-23.

"Forgiveness of sin through Faith in Christ, all the Prophets bore witness to;
and the saints ofthe Old Testament, as the saints do now in the New Testament,
had as comfortable an application of it, #Ps 32:1,5 Isa 43:25 Mic 7:18 Ac 10:43.

"Regeneration, Spiritual Circumcision, and Sanctification,
were what men were made Partakers of under the First Administration of the Eternal Covenant of Grace,
in the Old Testament, as we are under the Second Administration of the Covenant, in the New Testament,
#De 30:6 Php 3:3.

"Eternal Life was made known in the writings of the Old Testament, as well as in those of the New Testament;
and was believed, looked for, and expected by the saints of the Former Administration,
as of the Latter Administration, #Joh 5:39 Heb 11:10,16 Job 19:26,27.

"In a word, they and we eat the same Spiritual Meat, and Drink the same Spiritual Drink,
because they Drank of that Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ, #1Co 10:3,4."

His By Grace--"John Gill: A Body of Doctrinal & Practical Divinity"-Doctrinal Book 4, Chapter 1

A Baptist Sovereign Grace, Christian site committed to the doctrines of grace . A ministry page that exists to try and clearly draw the lines between trusting Christ, and the mere appearance of trusting Him. Articles, audio messages,links & study tools. Calvinistic.

www.gracesermons.com

Colossians 1:18​

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.​

18 And He (Jesus) is the Head of the body, the church:​

(Jesus is Head over His bodies, the churches)​

(And it is Jesus) Who is the Beginning,​

(And Jesus is also) the Firstborn from the dead;​

that in all things He (Jesus) might have the Preeminence."​

Could you please point out what relationship you think there is between Jesus being the Head of each of His church bodies and when it was that Jesus church had its beginning, based on those words there in that verse.

 

[JD731]

The

18 And He (Jesus) is the Head of the body, the church:​

(Jesus is Head over His bodies, the churches)​

(And it is Jesus) Who is the Beginning,​

(And Jesus is also) the Firstborn from the dead;​

that in all things He (Jesus) might have the Preeminence."​

Could you please point out what relationship you think there is between Jesus being the Head of each of His church bodies and when it was that Jesus church had its beginning, based on those words there in that verse.

I do not want you to take this as being personal to you. All you are guilty of is being ignorant (I mean to use that word in the same sense as Paul used it when he said, "I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren") concerning the doctrines of the faith and you are led astray by these religious charlatans who developed sometime in the past the Baptist Bride twist on the scriptures. Of all the heretical views that men hold this one has got to be the most senseless.
You are following these men and the books they wrote and the crowd who has bought into this and it defies logic and reason and the plain teaching of what the body of Jesus Christ is according to the apostle Paul in his 13 letters to the Gentiles in the KJV. I know you are much smarter than to fall for this teaching. You would never allow anyone to change a singular noun to a plural noun, not only once in a row, but twice in a row.

This would certainly have a grotesque appearance as I conjure up a vision of it in my mind.

So, here is my answer to the question; believe the words. I do. Jesus Christ is the beginning of the church when he rose from the dead and became the firstborn of many brethren following, who received the Spirit into lifeless bodies and were born again like he was. He, being first to receive the second birth will be the head of the body. The second man born is the spiritual man that God uses, ie Cain & Abel, Ishmael & Isaac Esau & Jacob, Adam & Jesus etc. The church, the one body of Christ will be complete when the last brother receives the Spirit and there are not many sinners on the earth now who will repent and believe the gospel of Jesus Christ and be saved. At that time God will end his dealing with men under the operative principle of grace and will take his bride to the Father's house, and await the marriage ceremony when the bridegroom will marry the bride. She is pure and dressed in fine linen, which is righteousness, without spot or wrinkle.



Consider the context of Col 1. I am going to quote this magnificent passage from my KJV and believe every word I quote and rejoice to know that I am a part of this because God by the Lord Jesus has saved me. I am reconciled to him by the blood of Christ and we are at peace. I am not looking for a great tribulation, I am looking to be taken to the Father's house. Pay attention to this;

Paul wrote to the Ephesians, in the Roman province of Asia, about us in Christ and then he wrote to the Colossians in the same province about Christ in us. This is important to the student of the word.


Col 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, 4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints, 5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; 6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth: 7 As ye also learned of Epaphras our dear fellowservant, who is for you a faithful minister of Christ; 8 Who also declared unto us your love in the Spirit.

9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;

12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: (past tense verbs, we are already in the kingdom of God's dear son)14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; 24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body s sake, which is the church: 25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; 26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: 29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

The word dispensation shows up in these two epistles only as operative principles of divine dealing with men. Here it is said to be the mystery of God (Grace - the Gift of the Spirit of Christ to dwell in the body eternally) and the HOPE of GLORY.

I do hope this helps you to see your teachers are not telling you the truth and you are having to change words to make it fit.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

All you are guilty of is being ignorant

you are led astray by these religious charlatans

Of all the heretical views that men hold this one has got to be the most senseless.

You are following these men and the books they wrote

and the crowd who has bought into this and it defies logic and reason and the plain teaching of what the body of Jesus Christ is according to the apostle Paul in his 13 letters to the Gentiles in the KJV.

Why didn't Paul say what you're saying, then?
I Corinthians 12:27; "Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular."

I know you are much smarter than to fall for this teaching.

I'm Blessed, thank you.

You would never allow anyone to change a singular noun to a plural noun, not only once in a row, but twice in a row.

To understand the concept of a generic noun with a definite article equating to a plural noun, consider these points:

1. A generic noun refers to a class or category of items.
2. The definite article "the" specifies a particular instance of that noun.
3. When combined, "the" + generic noun can imply all members of that category.
4. For example, "the dog" can refer to all dogs in general.
5. This construction is often used in generalizations or statements about a whole group.
6. It highlights the shared characteristics of the plural noun without listing them all.

Abstract Use of Singular Nouns is Not Hard to Understand

"To Him the Glory in the church in Christ Jesus unto all the generations
of the Age of the Ages. Amen." (Ephesians 3:21)

Of the 115 times that the Greek word "ekklesia" (usually translated "church" in KJ) appears in the New Testament, according to the Englishman's Greek Concordance, 79 occurrences are in the singular and 36 in the plural.

Most of the singulars are so obviously referred by the context to a particular assembly or congregation at a definite place that the most rabid advocates of a "universal" or "invisible" church cannot deny the simple fact that in these places the word "church" does mean "assembly" or "congregation."

But the word occurs nine times in Paul's letter to the Ephesians, each time in the singular, with the definite article, and without mention of a meeting place. And it is universally assumed by Protestant commentators with an ax to grind (and, sad to say, by ignorant or mistaught Baptists with their nose (noses) on the Protestant grindstone) that these references are to a "universal" or "invisible" church, as distinguished from "local" churches.

WET WATER -- COLD ICE

Actually, to speak of a "local" church is like speaking of wet water, hot fire, or cold ice.
There is no other kind, in a Biblical sense. The use of the word "church" to mean a meeting house, a denomination, or a universal hierarchy or religious monstrosity; visible or invisible, is completely unscriptural.

In the Bible the word "church" (Greek "ekklesia") means assembly, only and always. It never refers to an unknown, un-assembling, confused and scattered multitude. Such a "church" exists only in the imagination of heretics desperately trying to justify their schisms.

ABSTRACT -- TEN TO NONE

Every day we all use singular nouns in an abstract, generic, or distributive sense. We are not so silly as to dream up a vision of a universal, invisible automobile just because we hear or read of the changes the automobile has made in American life.

But instead of wasting space with more extra-scriptural examples, let us note some other singular nouns so used in Ephesians. This is only a partial list, and there is no Biblical evidence at all for a universal church: therefore in Ephesians the evidence is easily 10 or 15 to nothing that the word "church" is used abstractly and retains its usual meaning of "assembly" ("local," of course -- there is no other kind).

OUR FLESH
"We all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh,
fulfilling the desires of the flesh ..." (Ephesians 2:3.)


HIS WORKMANSHIP
"We are His Workmanship." (Ephesians 2:10.)

MIND OR UNDERSTANDING
"The eyes of your understanding." "Having the understanding darkened." (Ephesians 1:18; 4:18.)

SINGULAR HEART
"Blindness of their heart." "Melody in your heart." "Singleness of your heart." (Ephesians 4:18; 5:19; 6:5.)

THROUGH FAITH
"By Grace ye have been saved through Faith." (Ephesians 2:8.)

CIRCUMCISION
"Ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh,
who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands."
(Ephesians 2:11.)

THE OLD MAN
"That ye put off the old man." (Ephesians 4:22.)

THE NEW MAN
"And that ye put on the new man." (Ephesians 4:24.)

ONE NEW MAN
"To make in Himself of twain one new man." (Ephesians 2:15.)

THE INNER MAN
"That He would grant you (plural) ... to be strengthened . . . in the inner man." (Ephesians 3:16.)

HUSBAND AND WIFE
"The husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the Head of the church." (Ephesians 5:23.)

It would be exactly as sensible and intelligent to argue from this text for the real existence of a universal invisible husband and a universal invisible wife as of a universal invisible church. One is just as scriptural as the others.

If any critic is foolish enough to object that Christ cannot be the head of more than one church in the true sense of assembly wherever a true church exists, let him note I Corinthians 11:3: "The head of every man is Christ."

The Christ of the Bible can as easily be the Head of every (true) church as He can be the Head of every man, and so He is.

 

[Ascetic X]

Of the 115 times that the Greek word "ekklesia" (usually translated "church" in KJ) appears in the New Testament, according to the Englishman's Greek Concordance, 79 occurrences are in the singular and 36 in the plural.

Most of the singulars are so obviously referred by the context to a particular assembly or congregation at a definite place that the most rabid advocates of a "universal" or "invisible" church cannot deny the simple fact that in these places the word "church" does mean "assembly" or "congregation."

But the word occurs nine times in Paul's letter to the Ephesians, each time in the singular, with the definite article, and without mention of a meeting place. And it is universally assumed by Protestant commentators with an ax to grind (and, sad to say, by ignorant or mistaught Baptists with their nose (noses) on the Protestant grindstone) that these references are to a "universal" or "invisible" church, as distinguished from "local" churches.

… there is no Biblical evidence at all for a universal church: therefore in Ephesians the evidence is easily 10 or 15 to nothing that the word "church" is used abstractly and retains its usual meaning of "assembly" ("local," of course -- there is no other kind).

You seem to be aligned with Watchman Nee.

Watchman Nee defined the local church as the unique, practical expression of the total Body of Christ, limited strictly to the geographical boundary of a city or town. Based on New Testament, he taught there should be only one church per city—encompassing all believers within that area—to eliminate denominational divisions.

Sometimes the word “church” refers to a local assembly, but other times it cannot refer to one local assembly at a definite place, and must refer to the body of Christ in general, the universal or total collection of called out believers, who meet in many different places.

In Acts 2, in verse 41, there were about 3,000 souls added. A few verses later, it says the Lord added to the church daily. Believers met in homes in the first century. No home could hold 3,000 people. So the added believers could not be assembled in one place. Thus, “church” must refer to the body of Christ in general, which was centered around Jerusalem at first, and of necessity met in different homes, and not one definite place.

Universal church refers to all Christians throughout the world and throughout history. A local church contains true Christians and unsaved people. So the word church, in the context of a specific locale like Ephesus or Rome, cannot refer to one local assembly, but only to the saved people in the assembly.

Universal invisible church:

• Invisible Nature: Because only God can discern the human heart, the absolute composition of this church is not completely visible to human eyes.
• Composition: Includes all saints from all times and places who are truly saved, rather than those who merely identify as Christians.
• Distinction from Visible Church: The visible local church contains a "mixed body" of true believers and nominal Christians (tares and wheat), whereas the invisible church consists solely of the saved.
• Origin: The concept was heavily developed during the Reformation to define the true church as the body of believers rather than the institutional Roman Catholic Church.
• Significance: It emphasizes that salvation is based on a spiritual relationship with Christ rather than membership in a specific denomination.

Acts 2

41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

 

[JD731]

Sometimes the word “church” refers to a local assembly, but other times it cannot refer to one local assembly, and must refer to the body of Christ in general, the universal collection of called out believers who meet in many different places.

In Acts 2, in verse 41, there were about 3,000 souls added. A few verses later, it says the Lord added to the church daily. Believers met in homes in the first century. No home could hold 3,000 people. So the added believers could not be assembled in one place. Thus, “church” must refer to the body of Christ in general, which was centered around Jerusalem at first, and of necessity met in different homes.

Universal church refers to all Christians throughout the world and throughout history. A local church contains true Christians and unsaved people. So the word church, in the context of a specific locale like Ephesus or Rome, cannot refer to one local assembly, but only to the saved people in the assembly.

Universal invisible church:

• Invisible Nature: Because only God can discern the human heart, the absolute composition of this church is not completely visible to human eyes.
• Composition: Includes all saints from all times and places who are truly saved, rather than those who merely identify as Christians.
• Distinction from Visible Church: The visible local church contains a "mixed body" of true believers and nominal Christians (tares and wheat), whereas the invisible church consists solely of the saved.
• Origin: The concept was heavily developed during the Reformation to define the true church as the body of believers rather than the institutional Roman Catholic Church.
• Significance: It emphasizes that salvation is based on a spiritual relationship with Christ rather than membership in a specific denomination.

Acts 2

41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Not only individuals were added to the church but entire people groups were added at different times but it was always considered by God as one body, one church. In Ephesians the church of Jesus Christ is set forth as a mystery of God and the theme of the epistle is the mystery of Christ. There were Jews in that church and gentiles.

Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

A careful reading of this letter will show that the saints are to be understood as a different people group than the faithful in Christ Jesus. The saints are Jews. The faithful are gentiles. At this point in 60 AD when this was written they are both in the church but they were not in the church at the same time. Therefore, the first 12 verses describes the church was the unrevealed plan of God from eternity past. In this letter he is instructing both that in the church they are both one and that oneness is sons of God in one family,. The unity words are all through the letter like both, together, etc yet distinguishing words like ye and your and us and our and the end result we are all one when the church is laid on the Roch, which is Christ, and built on the Jewish foundation of the apostles and prophets, and has a frame work of gentiles and has a framework of Jews and gentiles.

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. (Jews)

13 In whom ye also trusted (Gentiles), after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

This is a very important letter.

 

[37818]

Biblically Jesus' church is one body, not bodies.

Matthew 16:18, . . . I will build my church . . . .

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

You seem to be aligned with Watchman Nee.

• Born: November 4, 1903, Shantou, China

Watchman Nee defined the local church as the unique, practical expression of the total Body of Christ

If Watchman Nee had the idea that something called "the Body of Christ", when he was really speaking of all Saved individuals that are Born Again into the Kingdom (all the Saved alive on Earth) and Family of God (all Saved of all Time, in Heaven and on Earth), he was believing in a concept that doesn't exist from a Biblical perspective, other than them being Divinely Organized individual, self-governing local bodies which assemble under the Rule of the New Testament, with Jesus as their Head.

Biblically Jesus' church is one body, not bodies.

Biblically, and linguistically, a 'body' is a 'unit', a whole, a collective, an assembly, a conglomeration, a unity, etc,
whereas 'a disunion', a separation, a division, a disassociation, scattered isolation, etc., are the opposite concepts.

The Kingdom of God includes all Saved people alive on Earth and Jesus Built His Kind of local called out assembly of His Saved children who were baptized by the Authority of God into her membership. Jesus Gave His first church body assembled at Jerusalem, and all of His subsequent local church body assemblies such as the example of all the churches recorded in the New Testament, the Oracles of God, the Gospel, the Great Commission, the Divine Ordnances, and church Discipline and Promised to be with her until the End of the Age. And so far His has, as proven by Baptist History, in the fact that "like begets like" and churches of the same Form and Substance exist today, as they have throughout all ages since He Founded His first one.

Along with everything else Jesus Gave His Kind of church body assemblies He Divinely Originated, the understanding of the words 'church' and 'body' have been adulterized and bastardized beginning 1500 years or so after the New Testament Era, to make those words synonymous with the word 'kingdom', as if Jesus had said, "on this Rock, I build my Kingdom", which was exactly the opposite of what Jesus was actually Revealing.

However, just as when "Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17; "And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona:
for flesh and blood hath not Revealed it unto thee, but My Father which is in Heaven",

the Lords churches He built have to be Revealed to the soul by His Father which is in Heaven.

For a word to be given an opposite meaning of that that is used in the Bible 1500 years after the times of the New Testament Era, that is not of God the Father, nor the Way God Reveals His Word, by His Spirit.

"the mystical Body of Christ (= the Church, the one people of God)", are purely of man's flesh, as in this typical modern example where 'a mystical' qualification is added, as if a local unit body could suddenly become a scatter World-wide disassembled disunity, by coming up with the bright idea that the 'body' God Talks about is 'mystical', when you never Him Saying anything like that anywhere in the Bible.

HELPS Word-studies
4983 sṓma – the physical body. 4983 (sṓma) is also used figuratively of the mystical Body of Christ (= the Church, the one people of God).

Sometimes the word “church” refers to a local assembly, but other times it cannot refer to one local assembly at a definite place, and must refer to the body of Christ in general, the universal or total collection of called out believers, who meet in many different places.

The words 'church' and 'body', when referring one of the churches of the Lord Jesus Christ in the Bible, always without exception, is referring to one Divinely Organized local assembly of Baptized believers, or collectively as all of the Divinely Organized local assemblies of baptized believers of Jesus Christ and NEVER OF ALL SAVED SOULS ALIVE ON EARTH AND/OR IN HEAVEN, which are the Kingdom of God and the Family of God, respectively.

In Acts 2, in verse 41, there were about 3,000 souls added. A few verses later, it says the Lord added to the church daily.

Jesus' church at Jerusalem that He Originated and Founded by adding to her "first Apostles" who had baptized into her by the Authority of God by John the Baptist, did indeed have Saved souls added to her on the Day of Pentecost, by baptism, since Jesus church there already existed before Pentecost.

No home could hold 3,000 people. So the added believers could not be assembled in one place.

I beg your pardon. No home was require for them to be a church group of individual baptized believers assembled.

Thus, “church” must refer to the body of Christ in general, which was centered around Jerusalem at first, and of necessity met in different homes, and not one definite place.

There is no such thing as a 'body' unless they are a unit. When "the body of Christ in general' is said to be includeing all Saved souls throughout the World it is simple an bona-fide, geniune, in-stage, pure oxymoron.

"An oxymoron is a figure of speech that juxtaposes concepts with opposite meanings within a word or in a phrase that is a self-contradiction."

Universal church refers to all Christians throughout the world and throughout history.

Only as it was invented during the Protestant Reformation, which had to be embellished by adding the frantic desperation of the 'Universal', or 'Catholic' concept the Catholics had already altered the word 'church' for their purposes to, to the Protestant's version of a 'church' now being coined 'Invisable', for their purpose to distinguish their non-Biblical false 'church' idea, from the Catholic's non-Biblical false idea of what a 'church' is.

A local church contains true Christians and unsaved people. So the word church, in the context of a specific locale like Ephesus or Rome, cannot refer to one local assembly, but only to the saved people in the assembly.

The Lord's churches have a strict policy of only baptizing Saved souls into their membership and, therefore do not except for membership those individuals who come to them from other denominations who not not have Scriptural views on Salvation and the Authority in Baptism, where if they are seen to be Saved they must then submit to Scriptural baptism.

All members of the Lord's churches can not be assumed to be Saved any more than all the members of Jesus' first one were.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

Universal invisible church:

Invented in the 1500s by the Protestants, to explain what they are that is different from the Catholic's 'Universal visible church', which was already taken, neither of which are in the Bible or have anything to do with God. They are both purely Satanic in their Origin and in fact have both been seen to ferociously torture and murder tens of millions of God-fearing, Bible believing children of God throughout the Ages since the New Testament times, until the present time.

Composition: Includes all saints from all times and places who are truly saved, rather than those who merely identify as Christians.

"18. The problem of the actual nature of a universal church.

"If a universal church is in existence today, what is it? Of whom is it composed? If it is the body of the redeemed from Pentecost to the Rapture, the same thing obtains. Can a part of the whole exist as the whole? If the body of Christ exists today as such, then a part of the whole is called the whole, else you do not have it in existence. Looking at it from another standpoint, can the church be universal until the last soul is saved? If so, then it is a universal church before it becomes universal.

"Furthermore, if the universal church exists today, where is it? Thousands of the redeemed are dead and their souls are in heaven; their bodies are in the grave. Thousands are living upon the earth in unredeemed bodies. Thousands (and perhaps millions) are yet to be saved. If all the saints, either of all time, or from Pentecost to the Rapture compose it, then part of it is in Heaven, part of it is in the grave (for the Glorified Body is part of God's Program according to Ephesians 5; Revelation 19; etc.), part of it is scattered upon the Earth, part of it hasn't yet come to pass. With this in view, we have a universal 'body', with the members scattered over the Earth, some members not yet in existence, and some scattered in Heaven. This is a breakdown of the very idea of organic union and function as pictured in the term "body."

"And again, if there exists a universal church, what is it doing? It certainly is not carrying out the Great Commission. It has never baptized anyone. It has never called a preacher. It has never nurtured new converts. It has never set up a teaching program. It has never conducted a church service. It has never held a prayer meeting. It has never gathered together as an assembly. Where all of this has been done, it was done by local churches or individuals acting on their own.

"If there is a universal church existing today, what is its purpose? Why does it exist? It can't meet together. It can't organize to do the Work of Christ. It can't promote an evangelistic campaign. It can't do anything but exist as a figment of some person's imagination. What good is a theological concept that can find no concrete expression? Note: [See page 1, article 2, The problem of history.]

"Again, [Volume 2, p. 83], "No one thought of the desperate idea of an 'invisible Church;' this notion would probably have brought about a lapse far more rapidly than the idea of the Holy Catholic Church."

The Concept of The Church being Universal, Invisible, Mystical, Spiritual Body Composed of all Believers - Baptist Because

baptistbecause.com

Origin: The concept was heavily developed during the Reformation to define the true church as the body of believers rather than the institutional Roman Catholic Church.

THAT IS CORRECT AND THEREFORE IS A MAN MAN ILLUSSION HAVING NOTHING TO DO WITH GOD OR THE BIBLE.

"The Protestant Reformation of the sixteenth century was a mixed blessing, part bitter and part sweet. Baptists rejoice in many truths often associated with the Reformation, such as the Sovereignty of God in all things, Justification by Faith only, and exalted views of the Worship of God. We have benefited from many outstanding writings which have come through Protestant authors.

"On the other hand, some aspects of the Reformation have always been a thorn in the side of Baptists. Some of these issues are so foundational that we cannot sacrifice them on the altar of unity in order to link up with Protestants today.

"Of course these non-negotiable issues deserve a more lengthy treatment than we can give here. We shall simply attempt to consider briefly six areas of difference which distinguish Baptists from Protestants. We do not wish to misrepresent any Protestants by an unfair caricature painted with a broad brush. Nor do we dare to imply that all Protestants are lost any more than we would dare to say that all Baptists are saved!

"3 of 5. Our view of the church. Protestantism carried over from its roots in Roman Catholicism a sacralist mentality. If one were a member of society he must therefore be a member of the "church" also. As the line of distinction between church and state became blurred, infant baptism emerged. These "churches" came to be composed intentionally of both the regenerate and the unregenerate. Efforts were made to justify this error on the basis of the Old Testament rite of circumcision.

"Baptists take the New Testament position of regenerate church membership. There are simply no instances at all in the New Testament of infant baptism, nor of the baptism of anyone known to be an unbeliever. We are grateful that some honest Protestants admit this. Those who claim otherwise must argue from silence.

"We see the mission of the church as primarily spiritual, not social nor political. We are more interested in proclaiming saving grace than promoting common grace. We are but strangers passing through, citizens of a heavenly kingdom. Our message has never been Save this generation, but rather Be saved from this generation (see Acts 2:40).

"Moreover, believing that each church is autonomous, we reject all forms of church hierarchy. In things Spiritual, there is no Higher Court on this Earth than the Scripturally organized local assembly of the same kind in the New Testament. Major issues in the churches of the New Testament were decided by the vote of the members, not by a board of elders, presbytery, synod, bishop or archbishop.

"We reject the Protestant concept of a 'universal' 'invisible' 'church' and the ecumenism which naturally springs from that concept. God certainly knows all those who are His and Eternally views us as one in Christ, but in our experience we will not be one assembly or church until all God's Elect are Gathered Together in Glory. Although every believer is in God's Family and Kingdom, the church of the New Testament that Jesus Built ad Promised Perpetuity is always, without exception, a local, visible assembly."

Why we (Baptists) are not Protestants.​

Significance: It emphasizes that salvation is based on a spiritual relationship with Christ rather than membership in a specific denomination.

Salvation has never had anything to do with 'membership', much less 'Membership in a specific denomination' and in the New Testament teaching Salvation must always take place prior to membership.

And technically and practically speaking, the churches of the Lord Jesus have never been a 'denomination' of anything.

Acts 2

41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

"the same day there were added unto them" there in the Lord's first church body assembled at Jerusalem.

"the Lord added to the church daily, (by the Holy Spirit Leading them to be Faithful to the Command to be baptized into her membership) such as should be saved"

I Corinthians12:18; "But now hath God Set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath Pleased Him."

12 "For as the body is one, and hath many members,
and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ."

13 "For by One Spirit are we all ("whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free")
(Led to be water) baptized into (membership of that) one body, (where the Jews and Gentiles were both baptized into the membership there in that church body at Corinth, as "God Set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath Pleased Him."

 

[Ascetic X]

HELPS Word-studies
4983 sṓma – the physical body. 4983 (sṓma) is also used figuratively of the mystical Body of Christ (= the Church, the one people of God).


The words 'church' and 'body', when referring one of the churches of the Lord Jesus Christ in the Bible, always without exception, is referring to one Divinely Organized local assembly of Baptized believers, or collectively as all of the Divinely Organized local assemblies of baptized believers of Jesus Christ and NEVER OF ALL SAVED SOULS ALIVE ON EARTH AND/OR IN HEAVEN, which are the Kingdom of God and the Family of God, respectively.

Jesus' church at Jerusalem that He Originated and Founded by adding to her "first Apostles" who had baptized into her by the Authority of God by John the Baptist, did indeed have Saved souls added to her on the Day of Pentecost, by baptism, since Jesus church there already existed before Pentecost.

I beg your pardon. No home was require for them to be a church group of individual baptized believers assembled.

You are pardoned. You do indeed repeat much of the teaching of Watchman Née whose organization was called the Local Church.

The word “church” in the New Testament refers generally to the totality of all called-out saved believers, and not one isolated local assembly in a specific location.

Colossians 1:18

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.


Acts 9:31

Then indeed the church throughout all of Judea and Galilee and Samaria had peace, being edified. And going on in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, they were multiplied.



Sometimes it refers to a specific local assembly, and they typically met at a person’s home.

Romans 16:5

Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

 

[37818]

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• Born: November 4, 1903, Shantou, China

If Watchman Nee had the idea that something called "the Body of Christ", when he was really speaking of all Saved individuals that are Born Again into the Kingdom (all the Saved alive on Earth) and Family of God (all Saved of all Time, in Heaven and on Earth), he was believing in a concept that doesn't exist from a Biblical perspective, other than them being Divinely Organized individual, self-governing local bodies which assemble under the Rule of the New Testament, with Jesus as their Head.

Biblically, and linguistically, a 'body' is a 'unit', a whole, a collective, an assembly, a conglomeration, a unity, etc,
whereas 'a disunion', a separation, a division, a disassociation, scattered isolation, etc., are the opposite concepts.

The Kingdom of God includes all Saved people alive on Earth and Jesus Built His Kind of local called out assembly of His Saved children who were baptized by the Authority of God into her membership. Jesus Gave His first church body assembled at Jerusalem, and all of His subsequent local church body assemblies such as the example of all the churches recorded in the New Testament, the Oracles of God, the Gospel, the Great Commission, the Divine Ordnances, and church Discipline and Promised to be with her until the End of the Age. And so far His has, as proven by Baptist History, in the fact that "like begets like" and churches of the same Form and Substance exist today, as they have throughout all ages since He Founded His first one.

Along with everything else Jesus Gave His Kind of church body assemblies He Divinely Originated, the understanding of the words 'church' and 'body' have been adulterized and bastardized beginning 1500 years or so after the New Testament Era, to make those words synonymous with the word 'kingdom', as if Jesus had said, "on this Rock, I build my Kingdom", which was exactly the opposite of what Jesus was actually Revealing.

However, just as when "Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17; "And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona:
for flesh and blood hath not Revealed it unto thee, but My Father which is in Heaven",

the Lords churches He built have to be Revealed to the soul by His Father which is in Heaven.

For a word to be given an opposite meaning of that that is used in the Bible 1500 years after the times of the New Testament Era, that is not of God the Father, nor the Way God Reveals His Word, by His Spirit.

"the mystical Body of Christ (= the Church, the one people of God)", are purely of man's flesh, as in this typical modern example where 'a mystical' qualification is added, as if a local unit body could suddenly become a scatter World-wide disassembled disunity, by coming up with the bright idea that the 'body' God Talks about is 'mystical', when you never Him Saying anything like that anywhere in the Bible.

HELPS Word-studies
4983 sṓma – the physical body. 4983 (sṓma) is also used figuratively of the mystical Body of Christ (= the Church, the one people of God).


The words 'church' and 'body', when referring one of the churches of the Lord Jesus Christ in the Bible, always without exception, is referring to one Divinely Organized local assembly of Baptized believers, or collectively as all of the Divinely Organized local assemblies of baptized believers of Jesus Christ and NEVER OF ALL SAVED SOULS ALIVE ON EARTH AND/OR IN HEAVEN, which are the Kingdom of God and the Family of God, respectively.

Jesus' church at Jerusalem that He Originated and Founded by adding to her "first Apostles" who had baptized into her by the Authority of God by John the Baptist, did indeed have Saved souls added to her on the Day of Pentecost, by baptism, since Jesus church there already existed before Pentecost.

I beg your pardon. No home was require for them to be a church group of individual baptized believers assembled.

There is no such thing as a 'body' unless they are a unit. When "the body of Christ in general' is said to be includeing all Saved souls throughout the World it is simple an bona-fide, geniune, in-stage, pure oxymoron.

"An oxymoron is a figure of speech that juxtaposes concepts with opposite meanings within a word or in a phrase that is a self-contradiction."

Only as it was invented during the Protestant Reformation, which had to be embellished by adding the frantic desperation of the 'Universal', or 'Catholic' concept the Catholics had already altered the word 'church' for their purposes to, to the Protestant's version of a 'church' now being coined 'Invisable', for their purpose to distinguish their non-Biblical false 'church' idea, from the Catholic's non-Biblical false idea of what a 'church' is.

The Lord's churches have a strict policy of only baptizing Saved souls into their membership and, therefore do not except for membership those individuals who come to them from other denominations who not not have Scriptural views on Salvation and the Authority in Baptism, where if they are seen to be Saved they must then submit to Scriptural baptism.

All members of the Lord's churches can not be assumed to be Saved any more than all the members of Jesus' first one were.

Still Jesus only taught in Matthew 16:18, . . . I will build my church . . . .

 

[JesusFan]

You are pardoned. You do indeed repeat much of the teaching of Watchman Née whose organization was called the Local Church.

The word “church” in the New Testament refers generally to the totality of all called-out saved believers, and not one isolated local assembly in a specific location.

Colossians 1:18

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.


Acts 9:31

Then indeed the church throughout all of Judea and Galilee and Samaria had peace, being edified. And going on in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, they were multiplied.



Sometimes it refers to a specific local assembly, and they typically met at a person’s home.

Romans 16:5

Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

There is the so called universal Church, all of the saved and redeemed of all time, and those living in the visible body of Chris there on earth