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The Bema Seat Judgement A question
- Thread starter merryyon
- Start date
Marcia
Active Member
Are you saying Jesus did not pay for the sins of Ananias and Sapphira? Why do you say this?
Are you saying this because A & S were struck down (killed) by God for lying to the HS? Being struck down was God's way of taking them out of the church that I think could be seen as a severe discipline, but it does not mean Jesus did not pay for their sins. Same with the Cornithians.
James_Newman
New Member
That would be exactly my point, Marcia. God disciplines us for sins, even though Jesus paid the price for those sins. We will never experience the eternal judgment for our sins, but that does not mean that God will not judge us. If He can do it in this life, there is no reason that He cannot do it in the next.
2 Corinthians 5:10-11
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
Matthew 16:27
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
2 Peter 2:12-13
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
Hebrews 10:28-30
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
2 Corinthians 5:10-11
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
Matthew 16:27
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
2 Peter 2:12-13
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
Hebrews 10:28-30
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Lacy Evans
New Member
Bob?
Now are we shifting topics? Are we talking about God JUDGING MY SIN? Or disciplining and chastising me as a son?
My sin has been judged. Period. There is no debate on this. If I am still to be judged for sin, then God lied.
Now, start a topic on how God disciplines us as His blood-bought children. Don't confuse issues here.
My sin has been judged. Period. There is no debate on this. If I am still to be judged for sin, then God lied.
Now, start a topic on how God disciplines us as His blood-bought children. Don't confuse issues here.
James_Newman
New Member
The topic is the judgment seat of Christ. Why, if the Lord can 'judge' us worthy of chastisement in this life, can He not do so at the judgment seat of Christ?
2 Timothy 4:1
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
Hebrews 10:26-27
26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
2 Corinthians 5:9-10
9 Wherefore we labor, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
James 5:9
9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.
1 Peter 4:17
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
Lacy Evans
New Member
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Will the preceeding judgement cause sorrow, crying or pain? </font>[/QUOTE]IMO, Rev 21 is not the JSOC at all. It is the Great White Throne Judgment which follows the Millennial Reign of Christ. The JSOC happens before the 1000 year reign.
This also begs the question, "Who has been crying for the last 1000 years during history's culmination in Christ's glorious reign?"
Who are those saved (they get their tears wiped) who have been crying during the kingdom?
Lacy
Lacy Evans
New Member
We are arguing about the size (and severity) of the rod and about the timing. We are definitely talking about chastening.
Just prove to me from scripture, that no chastening occurs at the "Bema", or else prove to me that the chastening that may occur is only the "withholding of a few cookies".
Lacy
Crying? When I see loved ones condemned (justly) to hell, I will weep. And God will wipe away the tears and I will remember them no more. Another miracle of grace to Bob.
I Cor 3:11-15
But "judged"? Nope. Just isn't there.
I Cor 3:11-15
And so I build and work. At the Bema my works will be TESTED, evaluated by fire. I may be rewarded or suffer loss (of reward).
But "judged"? Nope. Just isn't there.
James_Newman
New Member
Brother Bob, I don't know where to start... What exactly do you suppose to be the difference between having your works 'tested'(tried) by fire and being judged according to your works? Seems to me that you are doing a bad imitation of the semantic Hokey Pokey.
1 Peter 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Are you His people? You will be judged.
As for suffering loss meaning only the loss of goodies, Jesus spoke of suffering loss in Mathew, and in the context of being rewarded for works.
Matthew 16:26-27
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
How can you say that this is not what Paul was warning about in 1Corinthians?
1 Corinthians 3:16-17
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
What does it mean, as the temple of God, to be destroyed by God?
1 Peter 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Are you His people? You will be judged.
As for suffering loss meaning only the loss of goodies, Jesus spoke of suffering loss in Mathew, and in the context of being rewarded for works.
Matthew 16:26-27
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
How can you say that this is not what Paul was warning about in 1Corinthians?
1 Corinthians 3:16-17
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
What does it mean, as the temple of God, to be destroyed by God?
DeafPosttrib
New Member
Lacy Evans,
You saying JSOC is not Revelation 21(20), it is great white throne.
Please prove me that the Bible telling us there will be two future judgement days?
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
You saying JSOC is not Revelation 21(20), it is great white throne.
Please prove me that the Bible telling us there will be two future judgement days?
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
You have already been told, again and again.
---------------------------------------------
Five Judgements
The Lord God is a judging God
"To judge" can mean three things in the Holy Bible:
A. to discern between good and evil (human function)
B. to condemn, usually falsely (human function)
C. to reward the just & punish the evil (Godly function)
The Five Judgements:
1. Believers for SIN on the Cross
WHO: All who will Believe
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a merciful God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus
How to get from judgement 1 to judgement 2
(and avoid judgements 3, 4, or 5):
Romans 10:9 (KJV): "That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved."
2. Judgement Seat of Christ
WHO: Believers for works
WHEN: during the Great Tribulation on earth;
Right after the Rapture/Resurrection that starts
the Tribulation
WHERE: Heaven
WHY: to assign rewards (including
the Millinnial Kingdom rest)
to the redeemed for their good works
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus
3. Judgement of Yisrael under Antichrist
(Ezekiel 22:17-22 Time of Jacob's Trouble; Ezekiel 20:34-38;
Jeremiah 30:1-24; Revelation 6-19)
WHO: Yisrael
WHEN: during the Tribulation
WHERE: earth
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Great Tribulation
4. Throne of His Glory judgement
(AKA: Sheep and Goats judgement, Matthew 25:31-46)
WHO: the nations: the living survivers of the Great Tribulation
(these people are NOT saved, they are human in human bodies)
WHEN: after the Great Tribulation, before the Millennial Age
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those
who bless Yisrael and curse those who curse Yisrael
HOW: Judged by their treatment of Yisrael
WHAT: the cursed to Hell; the blessed to the Millennial Age
5. Great White Throne judgement
WHO: the wicked dead
WHEN: after the Millennial Age; before endless ages
WHERE: between Hell and the Lake of Fire
WHY: The Lord God is not mocked
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: the Messiah rejectors consigned to endless punishment
NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
judgements above does not preclude other specific
or general judgements. One place on the net i found
a chart where TWENTY-FOUR judgements were delineated.
The Lord God is a judging God and His hand is not shortened
by His revelation to us nor
by our understaning of His revelation to us.
May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!
--compilation by ed,
incurable Jesus Phreaque
---------------------------------------------
Luk 19:38 Saying, Blessed bee the King that commeth in the Name of the Lord, peace in heauen, and glory in the Highest.
Luk 19:39 And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude saide vnto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples.
Luk 19:40 And he answered, and said vnto them, I tell you, that if these should holde their peace, the stones would immediatly cry out.
Luk 19:41 And when he was come neere, he beheld the city and wept ouer it,
Luk 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst knowen, euen thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong vnto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
Luk 19:43 For the dayes shall come vpon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compasse thee round, and keepe thee in on euery side,
Luk 19:44 And shall lay thee euen with the ground, and thy children within thee: and they shall not leaue in thee one stone vpon another, because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Sorry, i cannot seem to edit the scripture before i posted it
-------------------------------
Luke 19:38-44 (KJV1611 Edition):
38 Saying, Blessed bee the King that commeth in
the Name of the Lord, peace in heauen, and glory
in the Highest.
39 And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude
saide vnto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples.
40 And he answered, and said vnto them, I tell you,
that if these should holde their peace,
the stones would immediatly cry out.
41 And when he was come neere, he beheld the city
and wept ouer it,
42 Saying, If thou hadst knowen, euen thou,
at least in this thy day, the things which belong
vnto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
43 For the dayes shall come vpon thee, that thine
enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and
compasse thee round, and keepe thee in on euery side,
44 And shall lay thee euen with the ground, and
thy children within thee: and they shall not leaue
in thee one stone vpon another, because thou knewest
not the time of thy visitation
God is visiting today with a message of hope:
the pretribulation rapture/resurrection is the real plan
of God. Some generation of Christians that don't deserve
such a blessing as to escape the Coming Tribulation Period;
the Wrath of God come to purge Earth of the dross and
save the maximum number of national Jews.
Please don't overlook the 'time of thy visitation'.
The old Deacon/Sunday School Teacher brought in a
good six pound stone. Of course, we asked him "Why the
rock?" Sez the old Deacon: "It is my PRAISE ROCK!"
Uh, say what? "Well" said the old Deacon "according
to Luke 19:14, if I don't praise the Lord, then i've got
this rock ready-in-place to do some Praise Singing!"
Amen! \o/ Praise Jesus! \o/
-------------------------------
Luke 19:38-44 (KJV1611 Edition):
38 Saying, Blessed bee the King that commeth in
the Name of the Lord, peace in heauen, and glory
in the Highest.
39 And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude
saide vnto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples.
40 And he answered, and said vnto them, I tell you,
that if these should holde their peace,
the stones would immediatly cry out.
41 And when he was come neere, he beheld the city
and wept ouer it,
42 Saying, If thou hadst knowen, euen thou,
at least in this thy day, the things which belong
vnto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
43 For the dayes shall come vpon thee, that thine
enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and
compasse thee round, and keepe thee in on euery side,
44 And shall lay thee euen with the ground, and
thy children within thee: and they shall not leaue
in thee one stone vpon another, because thou knewest
not the time of thy visitation
God is visiting today with a message of hope:
the pretribulation rapture/resurrection is the real plan
of God. Some generation of Christians that don't deserve
such a blessing as to escape the Coming Tribulation Period;
the Wrath of God come to purge Earth of the dross and
save the maximum number of national Jews.
Please don't overlook the 'time of thy visitation'.
The old Deacon/Sunday School Teacher brought in a
good six pound stone. Of course, we asked him "Why the
rock?" Sez the old Deacon: "It is my PRAISE ROCK!"
Uh, say what? "Well" said the old Deacon "according
to Luke 19:14, if I don't praise the Lord, then i've got
this rock ready-in-place to do some Praise Singing!"
Amen! \o/ Praise Jesus! \o/
DeafPosttrib
New Member
Ed,
You saying, Matt. 25:31-46 is at the end of seven year tribulation period, and before millennial kingdom. The problem is, Matt. 25:31-46 saying nothing about 'a thousand years'. Matt. 25:31-46 show there is the only one judgment day at Christ's coming at the end of the age.
You saying, these(sheep) are NOT saved, these are survivor tribulation saints. I ask you a challenge question on 'sheep'. How can you prove to us tha, 'sheep' will miss rapture and will have another chance to be saved during through seven year of tribulation period till at Christ's coming?
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
You saying, Matt. 25:31-46 is at the end of seven year tribulation period, and before millennial kingdom. The problem is, Matt. 25:31-46 saying nothing about 'a thousand years'. Matt. 25:31-46 show there is the only one judgment day at Christ's coming at the end of the age.
You saying, these(sheep) are NOT saved, these are survivor tribulation saints. I ask you a challenge question on 'sheep'. How can you prove to us tha, 'sheep' will miss rapture and will have another chance to be saved during through seven year of tribulation period till at Christ's coming?
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
James_Newman
New Member
DeafPosttrib, are you suggesting that the thousand years are not literal? Or that the judgment seat of Christ and the great white throne are the same and occur at the end of the mil.?
DeafPosttrib
New Member
James_Newman,
Right. Matt. 25:31-46 does not saying anything about 'a thousand years'. Neither, Christ say there will be two judgement days in this passage either.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Right. Matt. 25:31-46 does not saying anything about 'a thousand years'. Neither, Christ say there will be two judgement days in this passage either.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
James_Newman
New Member
That doesn't answer my question, DPT. Are you saying there is no 1000 years? Or are you saying that the judgment seat of Christ occurs after the thousand years?
DeafPosttrib
New Member
James_Newman,
Earlier, I understood your question so very clear. You asked me, does I suggesting that the thousand years are not literal?
Yes, that's correct.
Throughout in the 65 books even included Revelation in the Bible say nothing anything that Christ shall reign a thousand years on earth or in Jerusalem.
Revelation chapter 20 of 'a thousand years' is a symbol, it shows that the Church is now reigning with Christ both in heaven and earth for lengeth time. Church have been reigning with Christ for almost 2,000 years already.
There is no hint find anywhere in Bible saying there will be two future judgement days at the end of the age. Throughout in the Bible teaches us, there is the only one future final judgment day for all individuals of all ages at Christ's coming.
Also, no way, that you can prove Matt. 25:30 saying that a lazy servant shall suffering in the outer darkness for a temporary time last for only 1000 years. Early Church understoods Matt. 25:30 tells so very clear, that it is an everlasting punishment is speak of hell/lake of fire.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Earlier, I understood your question so very clear. You asked me, does I suggesting that the thousand years are not literal?
Yes, that's correct.
Throughout in the 65 books even included Revelation in the Bible say nothing anything that Christ shall reign a thousand years on earth or in Jerusalem.
Revelation chapter 20 of 'a thousand years' is a symbol, it shows that the Church is now reigning with Christ both in heaven and earth for lengeth time. Church have been reigning with Christ for almost 2,000 years already.
There is no hint find anywhere in Bible saying there will be two future judgement days at the end of the age. Throughout in the Bible teaches us, there is the only one future final judgment day for all individuals of all ages at Christ's coming.
Also, no way, that you can prove Matt. 25:30 saying that a lazy servant shall suffering in the outer darkness for a temporary time last for only 1000 years. Early Church understoods Matt. 25:30 tells so very clear, that it is an everlasting punishment is speak of hell/lake of fire.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Ed said:
---------------------------
4. Throne of His Glory judgement
(AKA: Sheep and Goats judgement, Matthew 25:31-46)
WHO: the nations: the living survivers of the Great Tribulation
(these people are NOT saved, they are human in human bodies)
WHEN: after the Great Tribulation, before the Millennial Age
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those
who bless Yisrael and curse those who curse Yisrael
HOW: Judged by their treatment of Yisrael
WHAT: the cursed to Hell; the blessed to the Millennial Age
---------------------------
Note that the who? When? Where? Why? How? What? questions
have different answers than the other judgements.
DeafPosttrib: //You saying, these(sheep) are NOT saved, these
are survivor tribulation saints. I ask you a challenge question on 'sheep'. How can you prove to us tha, 'sheep' will miss
rapture and will have another chance to be saved during through
seven year of tribulation period till at Christ's coming? //
1. you mistake sheep persons and sheep nations -
these are the nations that have properly treated
the Jews during the Tribulation these are NOT
sheep like individuals
2. During the Tribulation Period, the gentiles that get
saved will have their head chopped off. NO saved
gentile person is likely to survive the Tribulation
Period (this is why there will be a resurrection
at the end of the Tribulation period but NOT a
rapture of more than a few thousand issolated folks.
3. You speak as when i say "the living survivers
of the Great Tribulation
(these people are NOT saved, they are human
in human bodies)" that i mean "will have another chance to be saved during through
seven year of tribulation period"
Nothing such was intended. HOwever, those
who were lost and missed the rapture and didn't
get saved in the tribulation Period will have a chance
to be saved in the Physical Millinnial Kingdom
of Christ.
---------------------------
4. Throne of His Glory judgement
(AKA: Sheep and Goats judgement, Matthew 25:31-46)
WHO: the nations: the living survivers of the Great Tribulation
(these people are NOT saved, they are human in human bodies)
WHEN: after the Great Tribulation, before the Millennial Age
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those
who bless Yisrael and curse those who curse Yisrael
HOW: Judged by their treatment of Yisrael
WHAT: the cursed to Hell; the blessed to the Millennial Age
---------------------------
Note that the who? When? Where? Why? How? What? questions
have different answers than the other judgements.
DeafPosttrib: //You saying, these(sheep) are NOT saved, these
are survivor tribulation saints. I ask you a challenge question on 'sheep'. How can you prove to us tha, 'sheep' will miss
rapture and will have another chance to be saved during through
seven year of tribulation period till at Christ's coming? //
1. you mistake sheep persons and sheep nations -
these are the nations that have properly treated
the Jews during the Tribulation these are NOT
sheep like individuals
2. During the Tribulation Period, the gentiles that get
saved will have their head chopped off. NO saved
gentile person is likely to survive the Tribulation
Period (this is why there will be a resurrection
at the end of the Tribulation period but NOT a
rapture of more than a few thousand issolated folks.
3. You speak as when i say "the living survivers
of the Great Tribulation
(these people are NOT saved, they are human
in human bodies)" that i mean "will have another chance to be saved during through
seven year of tribulation period"
Nothing such was intended. HOwever, those
who were lost and missed the rapture and didn't
get saved in the tribulation Period will have a chance
to be saved in the Physical Millinnial Kingdom
of Christ.