Lacy Evans
New Member
I absolutely agree.
Why loss? Based on what? Our sins are all under the blood. You see how it works for that too.
Lacy
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The Bema Seat Judgement A question
- Thread starter merryyon
- Start date
Lacy
Wow.
So many issues have been brought up on this one I hardly know where to start.
Not much time now, so just this.
God does "chasten" believers for their sins. As noted by an earlier post, Ananias and Saphira in Acts 5 and the carnal Corinthians in 1Cor 11.
Just gotta point this out, from 1Cor 11:29-30 “For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.”
OK. Here is my point. Yes, Christians are judged/chastened for their sins, NOW. Not at the Bema. OK, I accept that BEMA was more than a reward bench in the passages cited. Fine. SHOW ME WHERE IT IS A PLACE OF CONDEMNATION, RIDICULE, OR CHASTENING FOR BELIEVERS?
Yes, we suffer for our sin now. We are judged for our sin now. 1Cor 3:11-15 clearly shows that the essence of the judgement for believers will be either reward or loss of reward, to ridicule what God calls “gold, silver, precious stones” as “a few cookies” borders on blasphemous IMHO.
So many of the passages cited as evidence of a scathing rebuke for believers relate to a general judgement, not the JSOC. I am not even going to respond to those preterists and covenantalists who fail to understand Revelation 20 literally and prefer to ignore Jer 31 and Zech 12-14 and others. What would be the point? Bro Ed, are they even listening?
All of Scripture is for me, but not all of Scripture is to me. There are some passages that relate to other peoples, times and places. May develop that more later, maybe not.
It is folly to pull a verse out of specific context and apply it indiscriminately to the JSOC.
It is also folly to rely on past tradition and popular interpretation over and against the clear words of the text! Should probably put this on the other thread, but SOLA SCRIPTURA means “THE WORDS OF SCRIPTURE OVER THE TRADITIONS OF THE CHURCH!!!” That was the whole point of the reformation, The WORDS OF SCRIPTURE are THE AUTHORITY, not the teachings of the church or the traditions of the Church Fathers or later theologians. GOD’S WORD ALONE IS THE AUTHORITY, NOT THE TRADITIONS OF ANY CHURCH, BAPTIST OR OTHERWISE!!!
So many issues have been brought up on this one I hardly know where to start.
Not much time now, so just this.
God does "chasten" believers for their sins. As noted by an earlier post, Ananias and Saphira in Acts 5 and the carnal Corinthians in 1Cor 11.
Just gotta point this out, from 1Cor 11:29-30 “For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.”
OK. Here is my point. Yes, Christians are judged/chastened for their sins, NOW. Not at the Bema. OK, I accept that BEMA was more than a reward bench in the passages cited. Fine. SHOW ME WHERE IT IS A PLACE OF CONDEMNATION, RIDICULE, OR CHASTENING FOR BELIEVERS?
Yes, we suffer for our sin now. We are judged for our sin now. 1Cor 3:11-15 clearly shows that the essence of the judgement for believers will be either reward or loss of reward, to ridicule what God calls “gold, silver, precious stones” as “a few cookies” borders on blasphemous IMHO.
So many of the passages cited as evidence of a scathing rebuke for believers relate to a general judgement, not the JSOC. I am not even going to respond to those preterists and covenantalists who fail to understand Revelation 20 literally and prefer to ignore Jer 31 and Zech 12-14 and others. What would be the point? Bro Ed, are they even listening?
All of Scripture is for me, but not all of Scripture is to me. There are some passages that relate to other peoples, times and places. May develop that more later, maybe not.
It is folly to pull a verse out of specific context and apply it indiscriminately to the JSOC.
It is also folly to rely on past tradition and popular interpretation over and against the clear words of the text! Should probably put this on the other thread, but SOLA SCRIPTURA means “THE WORDS OF SCRIPTURE OVER THE TRADITIONS OF THE CHURCH!!!” That was the whole point of the reformation, The WORDS OF SCRIPTURE are THE AUTHORITY, not the teachings of the church or the traditions of the Church Fathers or later theologians. GOD’S WORD ALONE IS THE AUTHORITY, NOT THE TRADITIONS OF ANY CHURCH, BAPTIST OR OTHERWISE!!!
James_Newman
New Member
The idea that 'suffer loss' only means that you don't get a reward is weak at best. Someone suffers the loss of a loved one, does that mean that they didn't get that new baby sister they were wanting?
Philippians 3:8
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Paul was speaking of literally losing everything when he said he 'suffered the loss' of all things. That is what it means to suffer loss. Something that you had is taken from you. Ask some of the refugees from New Orleans about suffering loss, and see if they tell you about the prize they didn't win.
Luke 19
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
These servants are believers at the judgment seat. The first two are rewarded for their good works and enter into the kingdom to reign with Christ. The third, the wicked servant, he suffers loss. Not only does he not reign, but the one pound that he did have is taken from him. The Lord is not going to let us keep our pound if we are not faithful with it. Suffering loss means losing something.
Those in 1cor 3 that suffer loss will lose something that they had, what is it? And why do any of you believe you can divorce verses 16 and 17 from the context?
1 Corinthians 3:16-17
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
Philippians 3:8
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Paul was speaking of literally losing everything when he said he 'suffered the loss' of all things. That is what it means to suffer loss. Something that you had is taken from you. Ask some of the refugees from New Orleans about suffering loss, and see if they tell you about the prize they didn't win.
Luke 19
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
These servants are believers at the judgment seat. The first two are rewarded for their good works and enter into the kingdom to reign with Christ. The third, the wicked servant, he suffers loss. Not only does he not reign, but the one pound that he did have is taken from him. The Lord is not going to let us keep our pound if we are not faithful with it. Suffering loss means losing something.
Those in 1cor 3 that suffer loss will lose something that they had, what is it? And why do any of you believe you can divorce verses 16 and 17 from the context?
1 Corinthians 3:16-17
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Rjprince: "It is folly to pull a verse out of specific context
and apply it indiscriminately to the JSOC. "
Amen, Brother Rjprince -- Preach it!
It is special* folly to use a servant recuiting parable
for such a purpose.
*I saw a sign at a public school with an arrow. The sign
said "special ed". It is so nice to be special
here is a repeat of my FIVE DIFFERENT JUDGEMENTS writing:
2. Judgement Seat of Christ
WHO: Believers for works
WHEN: during the Great Tribulation on earth;
Right after the Rapture/Resurrection that starts
the Tribulation
WHERE: Heaven
WHY: to assign rewards (including
the Millinnial Kingdom rest)
to the redeemed for their good works
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus
At the Pretribulation Rapture we are Glorified in Christ.
I didn't find any whipping post at the JSOC.
I don't think that 1/3 of sea will turn to blood on earth
during the Tribulation Period from the blood of the saints
dripping down from heaven
and apply it indiscriminately to the JSOC. "
Amen, Brother Rjprince -- Preach it!
It is special* folly to use a servant recuiting parable
for such a purpose.
*I saw a sign at a public school with an arrow. The sign
said "special ed". It is so nice to be special
here is a repeat of my FIVE DIFFERENT JUDGEMENTS writing:
2. Judgement Seat of Christ
WHO: Believers for works
WHEN: during the Great Tribulation on earth;
Right after the Rapture/Resurrection that starts
the Tribulation
WHERE: Heaven
WHY: to assign rewards (including
the Millinnial Kingdom rest)
to the redeemed for their good works
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus
At the Pretribulation Rapture we are Glorified in Christ.
I didn't find any whipping post at the JSOC.
I don't think that 1/3 of sea will turn to blood on earth
during the Tribulation Period from the blood of the saints
dripping down from heaven
JN,
Nice illustrations of some losses, a loved one and prizes that the refugees did not win.
First to amplify and expand on those two and then on Paul’s loss of all things.
We often say that we have lost a loved one when someone dies, but if that person is a believer they are not lost. If we know where something is, it is not lost. For believers, death is only a physical separation. However, having lost my mother at 5, I do know what it feels like to lose someone we love. But then again, my loss is heavens gain and I am confident of her faith in the Lord Jesus by the powerful testimony she left as a legacy. So, her death felt like a loss but it was only a temporary separation. Since we are talking about losses through death, let’s talk about David’s sin with Bathsheba. The price he paid initially was the loss of his child. I never said that believers do not pay a price for their sin, only that they do not pay it at the JSOC.
Now how about the refugees? If their hope and security was in the houses and possessions that were lost in Katrina, yes indeed, their hope and security is gone. But how much security is that anyway? One day it is all going to burn. Those who place their hope in possessions, positions, and accomplishments in this life will one day lose it all. This is a pretty consistent teaching throughout the NT. Paul lost those things not because they were valuable to him, but because upon meeting Jesus, Paul’s value system changed. It was either Jim Elliot of Nathan Saint who said, “He is no fool who give’s what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.”
Now, let’s go beyond your illustrations to the text of 1Cor 3. It is evident that believers are in view for the foundation is Jesus Christ. It is evident that their works are in view because it speaks of those things built on the foundation. PLEASE NOTICE that wood, hay, and stubble are not evil things. They are simply things of less worth than the gold, silver, and precious stones. Paul presents two possible scenarios at this judgement, some valuable things remain, or all is burned. There is no indication that the one who is left with some gold, silver, and precious stones came to the judgement with ONLY gold, silver, and precious stones. That is the whole point, at the JSOC, the wood, hay, and stubble is burned up and the gold, silver, and precious stones are left. Interesting that the fact that there is some wood, hay, and stubble does not mean that the gold, silver, and precious stones are therefore taken away! That is what you are trying to make out of “suffer loss”, that the presence of any wood, hay, or stubble means the loss of the gold, silver, and precious stones. If a person came to the JSOC with only gold, silver, and precious stones there would be no need for a fire to burn away the dross. The only point is that those things not fitting for heaven will be burned away. The passage goes on to say that the person will be saved so as by fire – the implication is that he is like one who barely gets out of a burning house, saved with nothing.
Oh, but wait, you may say, what about chapter 4 (since we ARE focusing on context here) where Paul speaks of being judged by Christ! He says that when the Lord comes, He “both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts”. AH HAH!!! That proves it! Every secret thing we have done, every wicked thought will be revealed and manifest for all to see!
NO!!! NO!!! NO!!! CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT!!! The result is not that we stand embarrassed in His presence, but that “then shall every man have praise of God”. I read that to mean that God knows the times His children are faithful, even when no one else notices – God knows the times when we set our hearts to serve Him faithfully and then fell flat on our faces in the mire. God will reward those unseen acts and those unfulfilled intentions! If that is not the meaning of this passage then what else is left?!
So many times I have heard the first part of this verse divorced from it’s context and applied to say that every secret deed and every secret thought will be revealed before all at the JSOC. NOPE. That is the GWT in Rev 20 where the only ones judged there are judged on the basis of their works and then condemned on the basis of their works. Paul is clear that we will not be judged with the world.
Want some more context? Let’s move on to chapter five and the believer living in open and blatant immorality. Guess what Paul says about him? “To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus”. He will be judged in this life, to the point of death, but saved in eternity. Kinda think that the things he has built his life on will probably all be burned up at the JSOC, except that he repents after he experiences church discipline and Paul commands his restoration (2Cor 2:5-11). Oh, but wait, from your position, anything he may have done for Christ later would have to be taken away in payment for his sin, right? Isn’t that where you were going with the whole “suffer loss” thing?
OH, sorry, I skipped right over your citation of 1Cor 3:16-17 didn’t I. Let’s look at it while we are close.
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
How do you apply this the JSOC? If so, how to you change “destroy” to “lose reward”? If this is JSOC, it is LOSS OF SALVATION, not loss of reward! No, can’t support your contention from this one either. Already mentioned the immoral believer in chap 5 – destroy means to kill the body, not take away rewards. This is further confirmed in 11:30-34 where Paul speaks of some who are dead as a result of God’s judgement upon them for their sin (krima/krinw as opposed to apokrinw, the intensified from used for the final judgement of unbelievers). No idea of any future retribution at the JSOC here. They are judged in this life, quite severely, as you may notice.
Never been to a wedding where the groom stops the processional and says, “Look at my Bride, she may be dressed in white now, but let me tell you, she comes from a pretty shady past. See Bob over there in the third row? Boy he could tell you some stories about this girl that is about to become my wife...” Are you kidding? Our sins are washed away, purged by the blood shed on calvary and our Groom has clothed us in his righteousness. Shame and nakedness at judgement is not a scene that is in any way consistent with the picture that the Bible paints of the Church being united with her LORD.
If we are ashamed at our lack of faithfulness, and some no doubt will be, Jesus will find something good to praise in all of us – “then shall every man have praise of God” – and our beloved Saviour will lift up our fallen countenances and welcome us to the place He has prepared.
Shame on all those who try to make the JSOC seem like a place to be dreaded by the ones who’s sins have been covered by the precious blood of Jesus. If there are any sins on our account at all, we are not going to heaven. Praise God, all MY sins are under the blood of the Lamb and He is my advocate with the Father. All the accusations against me by the evil one will come to naught. Grace, Grace, Grace. It is all by His wonderful grace and not my works, NO FLESH WILL GLORY IN HIS PRESENCE, which by the way, again back to context, is the point of 1Cor 3:20-4:4.
Nice illustrations of some losses, a loved one and prizes that the refugees did not win.
First to amplify and expand on those two and then on Paul’s loss of all things.
We often say that we have lost a loved one when someone dies, but if that person is a believer they are not lost. If we know where something is, it is not lost. For believers, death is only a physical separation. However, having lost my mother at 5, I do know what it feels like to lose someone we love. But then again, my loss is heavens gain and I am confident of her faith in the Lord Jesus by the powerful testimony she left as a legacy. So, her death felt like a loss but it was only a temporary separation. Since we are talking about losses through death, let’s talk about David’s sin with Bathsheba. The price he paid initially was the loss of his child. I never said that believers do not pay a price for their sin, only that they do not pay it at the JSOC.
Now how about the refugees? If their hope and security was in the houses and possessions that were lost in Katrina, yes indeed, their hope and security is gone. But how much security is that anyway? One day it is all going to burn. Those who place their hope in possessions, positions, and accomplishments in this life will one day lose it all. This is a pretty consistent teaching throughout the NT. Paul lost those things not because they were valuable to him, but because upon meeting Jesus, Paul’s value system changed. It was either Jim Elliot of Nathan Saint who said, “He is no fool who give’s what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.”
Now, let’s go beyond your illustrations to the text of 1Cor 3. It is evident that believers are in view for the foundation is Jesus Christ. It is evident that their works are in view because it speaks of those things built on the foundation. PLEASE NOTICE that wood, hay, and stubble are not evil things. They are simply things of less worth than the gold, silver, and precious stones. Paul presents two possible scenarios at this judgement, some valuable things remain, or all is burned. There is no indication that the one who is left with some gold, silver, and precious stones came to the judgement with ONLY gold, silver, and precious stones. That is the whole point, at the JSOC, the wood, hay, and stubble is burned up and the gold, silver, and precious stones are left. Interesting that the fact that there is some wood, hay, and stubble does not mean that the gold, silver, and precious stones are therefore taken away! That is what you are trying to make out of “suffer loss”, that the presence of any wood, hay, or stubble means the loss of the gold, silver, and precious stones. If a person came to the JSOC with only gold, silver, and precious stones there would be no need for a fire to burn away the dross. The only point is that those things not fitting for heaven will be burned away. The passage goes on to say that the person will be saved so as by fire – the implication is that he is like one who barely gets out of a burning house, saved with nothing.
Oh, but wait, you may say, what about chapter 4 (since we ARE focusing on context here) where Paul speaks of being judged by Christ! He says that when the Lord comes, He “both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts”. AH HAH!!! That proves it! Every secret thing we have done, every wicked thought will be revealed and manifest for all to see!
NO!!! NO!!! NO!!! CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT!!! The result is not that we stand embarrassed in His presence, but that “then shall every man have praise of God”. I read that to mean that God knows the times His children are faithful, even when no one else notices – God knows the times when we set our hearts to serve Him faithfully and then fell flat on our faces in the mire. God will reward those unseen acts and those unfulfilled intentions! If that is not the meaning of this passage then what else is left?!
So many times I have heard the first part of this verse divorced from it’s context and applied to say that every secret deed and every secret thought will be revealed before all at the JSOC. NOPE. That is the GWT in Rev 20 where the only ones judged there are judged on the basis of their works and then condemned on the basis of their works. Paul is clear that we will not be judged with the world.
Want some more context? Let’s move on to chapter five and the believer living in open and blatant immorality. Guess what Paul says about him? “To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus”. He will be judged in this life, to the point of death, but saved in eternity. Kinda think that the things he has built his life on will probably all be burned up at the JSOC, except that he repents after he experiences church discipline and Paul commands his restoration (2Cor 2:5-11). Oh, but wait, from your position, anything he may have done for Christ later would have to be taken away in payment for his sin, right? Isn’t that where you were going with the whole “suffer loss” thing?
OH, sorry, I skipped right over your citation of 1Cor 3:16-17 didn’t I. Let’s look at it while we are close.
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
How do you apply this the JSOC? If so, how to you change “destroy” to “lose reward”? If this is JSOC, it is LOSS OF SALVATION, not loss of reward! No, can’t support your contention from this one either. Already mentioned the immoral believer in chap 5 – destroy means to kill the body, not take away rewards. This is further confirmed in 11:30-34 where Paul speaks of some who are dead as a result of God’s judgement upon them for their sin (krima/krinw as opposed to apokrinw, the intensified from used for the final judgement of unbelievers). No idea of any future retribution at the JSOC here. They are judged in this life, quite severely, as you may notice.
Never been to a wedding where the groom stops the processional and says, “Look at my Bride, she may be dressed in white now, but let me tell you, she comes from a pretty shady past. See Bob over there in the third row? Boy he could tell you some stories about this girl that is about to become my wife...” Are you kidding? Our sins are washed away, purged by the blood shed on calvary and our Groom has clothed us in his righteousness. Shame and nakedness at judgement is not a scene that is in any way consistent with the picture that the Bible paints of the Church being united with her LORD.
If we are ashamed at our lack of faithfulness, and some no doubt will be, Jesus will find something good to praise in all of us – “then shall every man have praise of God” – and our beloved Saviour will lift up our fallen countenances and welcome us to the place He has prepared.
Shame on all those who try to make the JSOC seem like a place to be dreaded by the ones who’s sins have been covered by the precious blood of Jesus. If there are any sins on our account at all, we are not going to heaven. Praise God, all MY sins are under the blood of the Lamb and He is my advocate with the Father. All the accusations against me by the evil one will come to naught. Grace, Grace, Grace. It is all by His wonderful grace and not my works, NO FLESH WILL GLORY IN HIS PRESENCE, which by the way, again back to context, is the point of 1Cor 3:20-4:4.
Special Ed,
Here is little refinement on your timing of the rapture and the tribulation.
Daniel's seventieth week begins with the covenant by the prince that shall come, not the rapture. The rapture does indeed preceed the tribulation from a contextual literal grammatical historical viewpoint, and it does end the church age, but there may be a gap between the rapture and the covenant that begins Daniel's seventieth week.
Could not remember if I have ever said that here on BaptistBoard, or not. This is one of those that I had to refine in my own preaching and teaching. Think about it...
Here is little refinement on your timing of the rapture and the tribulation.
Daniel's seventieth week begins with the covenant by the prince that shall come, not the rapture. The rapture does indeed preceed the tribulation from a contextual literal grammatical historical viewpoint, and it does end the church age, but there may be a gap between the rapture and the covenant that begins Daniel's seventieth week.
Could not remember if I have ever said that here on BaptistBoard, or not. This is one of those that I had to refine in my own preaching and teaching. Think about it...
James_Newman
New Member
I'll start with the easiest. Why do you think this is NOT the judgment seat of Christ? Where else are believers going to be rewarded for their works? This occurs at the Lord's return, before the millennium.
Luke 19
12 He said therefore, A certain noble man went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Thanks for the reminder. There could
be a time, but i suspect it will be just a few
days. I also know of a scenario where it is sold
to the public (the lie that is believed)
that the 7-year peace treaty/covenant renewal
preceeded the Rapture/resurrection.
Of course, really the rapture/resurrection
preceeds the resigning of the covenant.
Sorry, James, you made the assertion that Luke 19 was referring to the JSOC, that leaves the burden of proof on you, not me.
In your post of September 13, 2005 14:04 you assert that these are "believers rewarded for their works". This is not in the text either! How can you take a parable of financial stewardship in the kingdom and make it equivalent to the JSOC?
In your post of September 13, 2005 14:04 you assert that these are "believers rewarded for their works". This is not in the text either! How can you take a parable of financial stewardship in the kingdom and make it equivalent to the JSOC?
James_Newman
New Member
Financial stewardship in the WHAT? These 'servants' are being rewarded in the kingdom for their stewardship while their Lord is away! Who do you think these servants are if they are not believers? You believe that because it is a parable, the warning is not to be taken seriously?
JamesN,
Are they believers? I do not think so, but more on that in minute. The text does not address their faith, but their stewardship! No indication they are believers in the death, burial, and resurrection. Nothing in the text supports that they are church age believers. Nothing in the text supports that they are anything but stewards in the kingdom.
You asked “stewardship in the WHAT?” Then answered your own question in the next sentence – “These 'servants' are being rewarded in the kingdom for their stewardship...” Somehow, in this, I miss the point of your yelling (with all caps) “the WHAT?” (Your post of September 13, 2005 23:27)
Again, nothing in the text indicates that they are believers. In fact by comparing Matt 25:14-30 and Luke 19:11-27 I would suggest that these are NOT AT ALL BELIEVERS and this is not the JSOC! Note, these are his “enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me” and the unprofitable servant is “cast into outer darkness [where] there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Luke 21: Matt 25:30). How can you contend that these are believers? There are clearly called enemies destined to be slain, yet you assert they are believers. Will believers wind up where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth? Is this your idea of the JSOC?
This is a judgement, yes. And it is to be taken seriously, yes. But the JSOC for believers? Are you really serious? Or did you just fail to spend very much time on the text...
all I have time for, for now.
Are they believers? I do not think so, but more on that in minute. The text does not address their faith, but their stewardship! No indication they are believers in the death, burial, and resurrection. Nothing in the text supports that they are church age believers. Nothing in the text supports that they are anything but stewards in the kingdom.
You asked “stewardship in the WHAT?” Then answered your own question in the next sentence – “These 'servants' are being rewarded in the kingdom for their stewardship...” Somehow, in this, I miss the point of your yelling (with all caps) “the WHAT?” (Your post of September 13, 2005 23:27)
Again, nothing in the text indicates that they are believers. In fact by comparing Matt 25:14-30 and Luke 19:11-27 I would suggest that these are NOT AT ALL BELIEVERS and this is not the JSOC! Note, these are his “enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me” and the unprofitable servant is “cast into outer darkness [where] there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Luke 21: Matt 25:30). How can you contend that these are believers? There are clearly called enemies destined to be slain, yet you assert they are believers. Will believers wind up where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth? Is this your idea of the JSOC?
This is a judgement, yes. And it is to be taken seriously, yes. But the JSOC for believers? Are you really serious? Or did you just fail to spend very much time on the text...
all I have time for, for now.
James_Newman
New Member
Not yelling, just expressing my disbelief in what you said, perhaps I misunderstood you, or you misunderstand me. You say that these people being rewarded are not believers? Where are unbelievers given crowns to reign with Jesus? I don't know what your church teaches, but my church says that if you are not a believer, you will not be in the kingdom, you will go to hell, and then the lake of fire for all eternity.
John 3:3
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Will believers wind up where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth? Hide your pound in a knapkin and find out. The unprofitable servant in Luke 19 is not one of those that He called His enemies. Those people are not present when He is judging His servants. After the servants are rewarded, He says bring them hither and slay them before me. They are a different class of people all together.
Luke 12:42-48
42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
We are that servant. We have a responsibility to live according to the light God has given us, and if we do not, we will be chastened for it, whether in this life or in the world to come.
John 3:3
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Will believers wind up where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth? Hide your pound in a knapkin and find out. The unprofitable servant in Luke 19 is not one of those that He called His enemies. Those people are not present when He is judging His servants. After the servants are rewarded, He says bring them hither and slay them before me. They are a different class of people all together.
Luke 12:42-48
42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
We are that servant. We have a responsibility to live according to the light God has given us, and if we do not, we will be chastened for it, whether in this life or in the world to come.
JN,
OK. The enemies in Luk 19:27 are not the servants. Still note that there is no indication that these servants are believers.
WOW. All I have to do is put my pound in a napkin to go to hell? Did I understand you correctly?
Do you offer anything besides these “kingdom” parables to suggest that believers will be punished at the JSOC?
Ray
OK. The enemies in Luk 19:27 are not the servants. Still note that there is no indication that these servants are believers.
WOW. All I have to do is put my pound in a napkin to go to hell? Did I understand you correctly?
Do you offer anything besides these “kingdom” parables to suggest that believers will be punished at the JSOC?
Ray
James_Newman
New Member
I think we would mostly be going over some of the same things that we have already discussed in this thread. Instead of looking directly at the judgment seat, we should look at whether or not a believer can miss the kingdom. You can decide whether that would constitute punishment or not. 1Cor 6, Galatians 5, Ephesians 5, all detail some of the sins that will keep a person out of the kingdom.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:3-5
3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
A believer who is backslidden and unrepentant, if he were to die in his sin, would forfeit his inheritance in the kingdom. Believers can fornicate, committ adultery, be covetous, thieves, drunkards, etc... Why would this not apply to believers? Be not deceived, the apostle exhorts.
We have had several threads on this subject in the past, perhaps it would be time to start a new one.
I would like to know who you think the servants could be, if not believers, and why you think that. I don't see any reason not to apply those warnings to myself other than a desire to get out from under them. Their Lord goes on a long journey to receive His kingdom. They wait for His return. I don't know any unbelievers waiting on the Lord.
StraightAndNarrow
Active Member
There are two primary descriptions of the final Judgment, found in MA 25 and Rev 20.
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me......
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
The MA account says that "all nations" shall be gathered and the Rev account says "the dead, small and great, stand before God." Where in either of these accounts does it say that these are only the unbelievers? In fact in the MA account the saved are separated from the damned. In the Rev account whoever was not found in the Book of Life was cast into Hell but the remainder were saved.
What is does say in both accounts of the (single) Judgment is that we are going to be judged by the works we have done in His Name.
Former believers who have subsequently rejected Him have had their names removed from the Book of Life.
Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Rev 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me......
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
The MA account says that "all nations" shall be gathered and the Rev account says "the dead, small and great, stand before God." Where in either of these accounts does it say that these are only the unbelievers? In fact in the MA account the saved are separated from the damned. In the Rev account whoever was not found in the Book of Life was cast into Hell but the remainder were saved.
What is does say in both accounts of the (single) Judgment is that we are going to be judged by the works we have done in His Name.
Former believers who have subsequently rejected Him have had their names removed from the Book of Life.
Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Rev 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
I respectfully disagree.
These two pasages describe two different judgements.
The differences are denoted below:
----------------------------------
4. Throne of His Glory judgement
(AKA: Sheep and Goats judgement, Matthew 25:31-46)
WHO: the nations: the living survivers of the Great Tribulation
(these people are NOT saved, they are human in human bodies)
WHEN: after the Great Tribulation, before the Millennial Age
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those
who bless Yisrael and curse those who curse Yisrael
HOW: Judged by their treatment of Yisrael
WHAT: the cursed to Hell; the blessed to the Millennial Age
5. Great White Throne judgement
(Revelation 20:11:15)
WHO: the wicked dead
WHEN: after the Millennial Age; before endless ages
WHERE: between Hell and the Lake of Fire
WHY: The Lord God is not mocked
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: the Messiah rejectors consigned to endless punishment
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
StraightAndNarrow: //In the Rev account whoever was not found in the Book of Life was cast into Hell but the remainder were saved.//
Here is your scripture quote:
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into
the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found
written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
There is no mention of "the remainder were saved".
All that is mentioned here at the Great White Throne
Judgement is people who are Damned to eternal
Hell AKA: the Second Death.
Here is your scripture quote:
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into
the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found
written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
There is no mention of "the remainder were saved".
All that is mentioned here at the Great White Throne
Judgement is people who are Damned to eternal
Hell AKA: the Second Death.
Mel Miller
New Member
The Bema Seat
Dear Ed,
You are correct that no mention is made that the "remainder are saved"
at the end of the Millennium! But if Matt.25 refers to the nations saved at the beginning of the 1000 years, then Jesus does indeed refer to those who will be "kept alive" because they "beg to escape and prevail to stand before the Son of Man"!! Luke 17:33; Luke 21:36.This means the "sheep nations" are saved at the beginning; but must wait until the end of the Millennium to "inherit the eternal kingdom" on the New Earth!!!
Rev.21:24-26; Matt.25:32-34.
I note again your penchant for not accepting the obvious reference to
the timing of a specific event!
This penchant of yours occurs in teaching the "gathering" of Matt.24:31
describes a "pre-trib rapture" when the actual time Jesus gives is "after
the great tribulation"! Matt.24:29. You see no contradiction with lifting Matt.24:31 "out of context" to insert the time for Rapture before the great tribulation!! Jesus describes the "rapture" but does not identify it in the Matt.24 passage as the time for the "Bema Seat of Judgment"!!!
Jesus identifies the exact timing for the the Bema Seat, in Matt.16:27,
is when He brings His rewards with Him for every believer at His coming in glory. You claim our rewards will be received before He comes in glory! Likewise, you claim He "separates sheep nations" from the goats at the start of the Millennium when He does not give the exact timing!! "The separation of nations" in Matt.25:32-34 can take place at no other time if the "nations coming against the Saints at the END of the Millennium are the "goat nations" that are "devoured by fire"!!! Rev.20:8-9.
Your Assumptions could once again be geared to the wrong timing:
Satan will "deceive the NATIONS" at the end of Christ's 1000-Year Reign.
No identifiable "nations" exixt who may "treat the Jews well" before then.
You cannot know what or if nations will bless Israel under the Antichrist.
It need not say the sheep are "living survivors of the great tribulation"!
But no Scripture suggests there will be "goat nations" before the end!!
No nation will be "kept alive" and immediately cast to Hell 1000 years!!!
It will take the Millennium to determine who "inherits the eternal kingdom" on earth based on their works rather than inheriting the New Jerusalem based on salvation by grace thru faith alone! No one remains in Hell during the Millennium except the two Beasts!! All who are destined to Hell at the start of the Millennium must be in Hades until or at the "second death", including the potential "goat nations devoured by fire" who are deceived by Satan and come against the Saints at the end of the Millennium!!! Rev.20:8-9.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net
___________________________________________________________Ed Edwards said:
Dear Ed,
You are correct that no mention is made that the "remainder are saved"
at the end of the Millennium! But if Matt.25 refers to the nations saved at the beginning of the 1000 years, then Jesus does indeed refer to those who will be "kept alive" because they "beg to escape and prevail to stand before the Son of Man"!! Luke 17:33; Luke 21:36.This means the "sheep nations" are saved at the beginning; but must wait until the end of the Millennium to "inherit the eternal kingdom" on the New Earth!!!
Rev.21:24-26; Matt.25:32-34.
I note again your penchant for not accepting the obvious reference to
the timing of a specific event!
This penchant of yours occurs in teaching the "gathering" of Matt.24:31
describes a "pre-trib rapture" when the actual time Jesus gives is "after
the great tribulation"! Matt.24:29. You see no contradiction with lifting Matt.24:31 "out of context" to insert the time for Rapture before the great tribulation!! Jesus describes the "rapture" but does not identify it in the Matt.24 passage as the time for the "Bema Seat of Judgment"!!!
Jesus identifies the exact timing for the the Bema Seat, in Matt.16:27,
is when He brings His rewards with Him for every believer at His coming in glory. You claim our rewards will be received before He comes in glory! Likewise, you claim He "separates sheep nations" from the goats at the start of the Millennium when He does not give the exact timing!! "The separation of nations" in Matt.25:32-34 can take place at no other time if the "nations coming against the Saints at the END of the Millennium are the "goat nations" that are "devoured by fire"!!! Rev.20:8-9.
Your Assumptions could once again be geared to the wrong timing:
Satan will "deceive the NATIONS" at the end of Christ's 1000-Year Reign.
No identifiable "nations" exixt who may "treat the Jews well" before then.
You cannot know what or if nations will bless Israel under the Antichrist.
It need not say the sheep are "living survivors of the great tribulation"!
But no Scripture suggests there will be "goat nations" before the end!!
No nation will be "kept alive" and immediately cast to Hell 1000 years!!!
It will take the Millennium to determine who "inherits the eternal kingdom" on earth based on their works rather than inheriting the New Jerusalem based on salvation by grace thru faith alone! No one remains in Hell during the Millennium except the two Beasts!! All who are destined to Hell at the start of the Millennium must be in Hades until or at the "second death", including the potential "goat nations devoured by fire" who are deceived by Satan and come against the Saints at the end of the Millennium!!! Rev.20:8-9.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net