The Bible and capital punishment

[canadyjd]

Roguelet

Personal experience is the wrong foundation for being for or against something. Scripture is our foundation for determining what to be for or against.

Scripture is clear on this subject if we will accept it.

It is unChristlike to seek or support the death of anyone.

 

[Roguelet]

I never said i had a personal experence, in fact I said I didn't ! I said
I find it hard to believe for those ( which include the unsaved ) who believe that there should be NO death penalty, that they would think differently if they had a loved one killed by someone who had a history of killing.

If you read the link you will find the bible has a lot to say FOR the death penalty.

 

[Roguelet]

yeah it's unchrist like to discipline our children if they do wrong too, at least that is what the government will tell you. undisciplined kids are very hard to be around and they end up causing more problems in society than ones who are. Actually these are probably the kids who end up in our jails.

Harsher punishments = Less crimes thats a fact !

 

[canadyjd]

Roguelet

I never said you had a personal experience....I said such an experience is the wrong foundation for deterimining a stance on this issue. What the government says about disciplining children has nothing to do with this issue.

I do not need to read the link to know what the Bible says about the death penalty. We do not live under the Old Testament Law. Jesus changed the requirements for executing the death penalty in John 8. Paul clearly explains what a Christian's attitude toward the most violent sinners (even murderers like Paul) should be in I Tim. 1:16.

It is clear if we can accept it.

It is unChristlike to seek or support the death of anyone.

 

[Roguelet]

I understand what you are saying about ones experence, i just think you would have a different outlook on the subject if it was personal. Since our justice system is so screwed up no one wants a murder set free to do it again and again.

Paul was protected by his Government or the pharisees, that doesn't make it right, it was just the way it was, just like our Government today.

And yes disciplining kids has everything to do with this subject. The reason we are commanded to discipline our kids ( most of which is found in the Old Testament ) is so they realize that all sin has conseqences. That we are held accountable for our actions. What does it say to them when our own government can't follow through with swift punishments.

If you don't read the link then you can't talk against it. I will post what it says about the NT.

 

[Roguelet]

B. Capital punishment was assumed in the New Testament.

1. God ordains governing authorities:

a. Jn 19:11 Jesus answered [to Pilate], "You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above."

b. Rom 13:1-2 Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Therefore, he who resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.

c. 1 Pet 2:13-14 Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right.

2. Those governments may practice capital punishment.

a. Rom 13:3-4 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil.

b. Acts 25:11 If then I am a wrongdoer, and have committed anything worthy of death, I do not refuse to die; but if none of those things is true of which these men accuse me, no one can hand me over to them. I appeal to Caesar.

 

[Roguelet]

C. Jesus' ethic of love and forgiveness doesn't disallow capital punishment.

1. "But Jesus would forgive."

a. This argument proves too much.

1) It becomes an argument against any punishment what-so-ever.
2) What should we do with the criminal we've forgiven?
a) Life in prison instead of capital punishment?
b) But Jesus would forgive.

b. Jesus never challenged the validity of the death penalty.

1) In Jn 8:3-11, for example, there were no witnesses left to testify against the woman caught in adultery (the Law required at least two witnesses).
2) Jesus actually upheld the Law here, He didn't abrogate it, but He did so in a way that wouldn't allow the evil designs of the Scribes and Pharisees to be accomplished.

c. Jesus asked God to forgive, not Caesar; He didn't suggest civil punishment or capital punishment was inappropriate.

d. We must argue for the coherence and consistency of both Testaments.

1) The question is not, "Was Jesus right or was Moses right?"
2) We must also factor in Paul and Peter.

2. "Jesus was crucified."

a. I'm not sure what the point is here? Yes, Jesus was the victim of capital punishment, but what follows from that?

b. The real issue regarding Jesus was not capital punishment, but His innocence.

1) Peter assails the act of handing over an innocent man to godless executioners.
2) Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--this Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. (Acts 2:22-23)

3. But what about forgiveness?

a. God's mercy is always available in His court.

b. Man's court is another matter, governed by different biblical responsibilities.

D. One simply can't say that capital punishment is patently immoral on biblical grounds.

1. Jesus did not "abolish the Law,"

He fulfilled it, but not in the sense that all laws are wiped from the books. Then we would have no punishment for any biblical crimes.

2. Matt 5:17-19

Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and so teaches others, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven.


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[canadyjd]

Roguelet

The question is not whether governments should execute people. The question is whether Christians should support the death penalty. We have a unique situation in this country of being able to seek the abolishment of the death penalty.

To say that Christians should be in subjection to the government doesn't mean Christians must support the death penalty. Many of the government's laws violate the teachings of Christ. We are bound by our Lord to follow His example. That would be especially true in places where being a Christian is punishable by the death penalty. I know you would not support such laws, despite what the "government" said.

You cannot follow the example of Christ found in I Tim. 1:16, and support the death penalty. It is unChristlike.

 

[canadyjd]

Please do not take what I am about to say personally, because it is not directed toward you or anyone else that has posted.

Why would anyone that had been transformed by the power of the Holy Spirit seek or support the death of anyone, no matter what their crime?

Don't you understand that these people are prisoners of sin, and of Satan, and of the darkness in which they live? Yes, they are accountable for their actions, but I tell you that they are no different than you or I prior to salvation.

But you say, "I never murdered", or "I never raped" or "I never molested". Had Jesus not called you by His Spirit, wouldn't you be going to the same fiery Hell as they? All go into the same lake of fire, don't they? (Rev. 20:15: "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.") Do you think their hell will be a little hotter than someone who hadn't committed murder? Would you find some kind of comfort in the thought that they are suffering a little more? Doesn't scripture say that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked? Why should we?

Would you rejoice if the BTK killer was transformed by God from a hell-bound sinner into a heaven-bound saint? If yes, then why not give him every second of his natural life to come to Christ? Once they are dead, there is no chance for eternal life with God.

Do you want Justice? Do you want "those people" to get what they deserve? Would it bother you if the BTK killer stood next to you in heaven? I tell you that you and I will not get what we deserve. We have received mercy instead. Don't you know that justice will only come at the 2nd coming of our Lord?

Why not seek and support mercy and grace instead of death and destruction? Don't you know that God can take a life any second He wishes? He doesn't need our help in bringing about justice.

I am not saying let killers loose. I am saying it is unChristlike to seek or support the death of anyone.

I Tim. 1:16: Read it please. I pray that we all strive to have the same kind of perfect patience toward the most violent criminals that Jesus had with Paul.

That would be well-pleasing in the sight of God.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by gb93433:
What do you think of the following article?

Scripture permitted capital punishment. However, it does not require it for us today. OTOH, it does not denounce capital punishment for us today either. We need to make those decisions.

Though I think that cp is barbaric, the implimentation of it to the rarity that it is used causes me to lose no sleep. However, if it were made illegal tomorrow, I would have no problem with that either. I personally believe that a truly civilized society will desire to neither engage in elective abortions, nor engage in the death penalty. We're only 200 years old, and we speant the first 150 years abolishing slavery, These other issues will likewise not be resolved quickly.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by Roguelet:
B. Capital punishment was assumed in the New Testament.

1. God ordains governing authorities:

a. Jn 19:11 Jesus answered [to Pilate], "You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above."

b. Rom 13:1-2 Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Therefore, he who resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.

This same argument could be used to continue the practice of abortion. It is legal today and allowed by the "ones in authority." In fact, I think that's a useful analogy. Both of these, abortion and capital punishment, as well as killing soldiers or civilians in war are included in the more general category of preserving the Sanctity of Life. A life is a life is a life is a life. They are all precious in God's sight.

Christians married to non-Christians are urged in the Bible to stay with their mate in the hope that they might be saved. The same ides is true in a much stronger way for innmates on Death Row. If we take their life we have no chance to witness to them. They die twice.

 

[Roguelet]

Well if a " Life is a Life is a Life " then why don't you support the death penalty ? One mans life for killing more than one person, be it a serial killer, child killer or anyone who enjoys killing just for the heck of it. Should be put to death ! Sorry but i'm on the side of the poor INNOCENT not the guilty !

The problem you MAMBY PAMBY believers have is that you fail to realize that these people are SICK in the head and most often possesed by Satan ! who do you think controls them ? Not God, and the chances of God saving them are very slim. There is no rehabilitaion for child molestors, rapist and serial killers. Even those who profess Christ say if let out they would do it again, very few change even through the power of the Holy Spirit. I knew of two men who were " Christians " who molested children, who still had struggles, in fact one of them was caught after many years of him doing a christmas drive playing Santa and giving lots of gifts ( he use to be an actor and singer ) at a lowincome project. And he went to our church. ( Not our church now another one many years ago.) He sang in the choir, he was faithful. But he still remained SICK.

The point of Government goes back to the OT where God clearly says certain acts that people commit deserve the Death Penalty. WHY for cleansing of his people and for examples to others to think before they too sin. I would think most Christians would be in support of the war on terror, I'm shocked. Guess we all don't serve the same God. The God I know isn't the big granddaddy in the sky rewarding everyones sin and saying its ok I still love you no matter what evil you do. He doesn't love the unsaved in the same way he loves his children.

But I guess these are the same people who aren't able to discipline their children and expect them to obey authorities

Gods love, grace and mercy is extended to those who BELIEVE not those who do not. They will have to endure his wrath. If God wants a child molestor, serial rapist, serial killer saved he will do so in his time, but he still has to pay for his consequences of sin just like everyone else does. The death penalty is his payment for sin. He will go to heaven but he will KILL NO MORE. AMEN !

 

[Roguelet]

Christians married to non-Christians are urged in the Bible to stay with their mate in the hope that they might be saved.

WHAT ! If that unbeliever sins by commiting adultry or if he leaves, then the Marriage bond is broken. I would go a step further if a spouse is abusive to the point he/she could commit murder to his wife/husband or harm the chilren in a serious way or even molest them. I would hope that believer would get out as fast as he/she could !

God is in the " SAVING " business don't get me wrong. But not at the expense of his children ( Christians ) and innocent people.

GIVE ME A BREAK !

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by Roguelet:
Well if a " Life is a Life is a Life " then why don't you support the death penalty ? One mans life for killing more than one person, be it a serial killer, child killer or anyone who enjoys killing just for the heck of it. Should be put to death ! Sorry but i'm on the side of the poor INNOCENT not the guilty !

The problem you MAMBY PAMBY believers have is that you fail to realize that these people are SICK in the head and most often possesed by Satan ! who do you think controls them ? Not God, and the chances of God saving them are very slim. There is no rehabilitaion for child molestors, rapist and serial killers. Even those who profess Christ say if let out they would do it again, very few change even through the power of the Holy Spirit. I knew of two men who were " Christians " who molested children, who still had struggles, in fact one of them was caught after many years of him doing a christmas drive playing Santa and giving lots of gifts ( he use to be an actor and singer ) at a lowincome project. And he went to our church. ( Not our church now another one many years ago.) He sang in the choir, he was faithful. But he still remained SICK.

The point of Government goes back to the OT where God clearly says certain acts that people commit deserve the Death Penalty. WHY for cleansing of his people and for examples to others to think before they too sin. I would think most Christians would be in support of the war on terror, I'm shocked. Guess we all don't serve the same God. The God I know isn't the big granddaddy in the sky rewarding everyones sin and saying its ok I still love you no matter what evil you do. He doesn't love the unsaved in the same way he loves his children.

But I guess these are the same people who aren't able to discipline their children and expect them to obey authorities

Gods love, grace and mercy is extended to those who BELIEVE not those who do not. They will have to endure his wrath. If God wants a child molestor, serial rapist, serial killer saved he will do so in his time, but he still has to pay for his consequences of sin just like everyone else does. The death penalty is his payment for sin. He will go to heaven but he will KILL NO MORE. AMEN !

I will not have my beliefs belittled. You can chose to murder unborn children, convicted criminals, and/or soldiers or civilians in war if you want to. The SBC was the ONLY major Christian that supported the invasion of Iraq. I didn't back then and I don't now. Does the tern quagmire mean anything to you or unjust war?

 

[Roguelet]

I do not believe in murdering unborn children, the government is flawed in its laws about abortion just like it is about the death penalty. actually it is twisted. it should be the other way around. Save innocent babies and put to death repeat killers. THAT IS THE WAY IT SHOULD BE ! Not my fault the laws are twisted.

Its not an unjust war, maybe you haven't noticed but we haven't been attact since we went to war. Other countries need to know we are not WIMPS we are not going to be trampled on. Actually this proves my point harsher reactions to sin like terrorist and they get the hint to leave us alone. harsher punishment for repeat murderers and maybe we wouldn't have SO MANY !

 

[Helen]

why does a person have to be a REPEAT killer to deserve the death penalty?

 

[Roguelet]

Good question Helen. I think I said something in an earlier post. Personally I believe in rehabilitation if possible. To me if a person killed in self defense, accident or is remorseful for his/her actions and the like. I would not be so quick to suggest the death Penalty. I too think life is precious even for those who make mistakes or due to some period of their lives ( drugs, alchol abuse etc. ) made a bad choice.

But someone who is evil at heart or who cannot be rehabilitated like the people I mentioned, serial killers, serial rapist ( who now indays kills so they have no witnesses ) and child molestors ( who also usually kills for the same reason ) should receive the death penalty. why should we as society have to PAY for them to have 3 meals a day, place to sleep, tv, weight room, congenial visits and everything else they are now privledged to in jail or prison ? Tax dollars at waste.

PS IMO rapist and child molestors who do NOT kill, or there is no proof they have killed should be castorated !

 

[canadyjd]

Roguelet

You said, "You MAMBY PAMBY believers". I am not familiar with the phrase "MAMBY PAMBY". Could you explain to me what it means? Does that mean someone who is meek? Someone who doesn't want to see people die? Someone would rather pray for someone rather than slay them? Please explain. If you were "calling me a name", I think it is childish of you.

Did you really mean to say that even God cannot change these kinds of people? Surely you are not going to limit the power of God are you?

Are you really saying God only loves the people who are His children. But those "really-bad sinners" (the ones "evil at heart"), He doesn't love, and in fact, He wants His children to put those folks to death?

I hope I am not being too bold when I say this to you. You do not have a very good understanding of your own depravity and sinful nature.

The truth is, prior to salvation, we are all, "evil at heart". You apparently want to look at some people and say, "Well, I least I'm not as bad as they are! They don't deserve salvation because they are "evil at heart"'.

Such an attitude comes very close to saying that God saved you (and not those really bad sinners) because you weren't as bad as they were. That is very close to saying you deserved to be saved, which gives you some kind of merit or standing before God.

I am convinced that if someone cannot understand their own sinfulness, they cannot appreciate the Grace they have been shown. If they cannot appreciate the Grace they have been shown, they are incapable to demonstrating the same kind of Grace to others.

Let me ask you one final question. When Christians seek and support the death of someone, and that person dies, does God rejoice with the angels that "His children" kept another "evil-hearted" sinner out of heaven...or does Satan rejoice with the demons that another soul is lost forever while "God's children" stood by and cheered?

 

[Roguelet]

Oh Boy another who deosn't read and understand what people write. so here I will post it again for you to study. I didn't call you names it is your belief that is wimpy. Hate to tell you but most Christians are Conservatives, most Conservatives are Republicians, and most Republicans are FOR the DEATH PENALTY !

Well if a " Life is a Life is a Life " then why don't you support the death penalty ? One mans life for killing more than one person, be it a serial killer, child killer or anyone who enjoys killing just for the heck of it. Should be put to death ! Sorry but i'm on the side of the poor INNOCENT not the guilty !

The problem you MAMBY PAMBY believers have is that you fail to realize that these people are SICK in the head and most often possesed by Satan ! who do you think controls them ? Not God, and the chances of God saving them are very slim. There is no rehabilitaion for child molestors, rapist and serial killers. Even those who profess Christ say if let out they would do it again, very few change even through the power of the Holy Spirit. I knew of two men who were " Christians " who molested children, who still had struggles, in fact one of them was caught after many years of him doing a christmas drive playing Santa and giving lots of gifts ( he use to be an actor and singer ) at a lowincome project. And he went to our church. ( Not our church now another one many years ago.) He sang in the choir, he was faithful. But he still remained SICK.

The point of Government goes back to the OT where God clearly says certain acts that people commit deserve the Death Penalty. WHY for cleansing of his people and for examples to others to think before they too sin. I would think most Christians would be in support of the war on terror, I'm shocked. Guess we all don't serve the same God. The God I know isn't the big granddaddy in the sky rewarding everyones sin and saying its ok I still love you no matter what evil you do. He doesn't love the unsaved in the same way he loves his children.

But I guess these are the same people who aren't able to discipline their children and expect them to obey authorities

Gods love, grace and mercy is extended to those who BELIEVE not those who do not. They will have to endure his wrath. If God wants a child molestor, serial rapist, serial killer saved he will do so in his time, but he still has to pay for his consequences of sin just like everyone else does. The death penalty is his payment for sin. He will go to heaven but he will KILL NO MORE. AMEN !

 

[Roguelet]

Gods love, grace and mercy is extended to those who BELIEVE not those who do not. They will have to endure his wrath. If God wants a child molestor, serial rapist, serial killer saved he will do so in his time, but he still has to pay for his consequences of sin just like everyone else does. The death penalty is his payment for sin. He will go to heaven but he will KILL NO MORE. AMEN !