The Bible and capital punishment

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Roguelet:
if we cannot inforce the death penalty ( not saying you do ) then those who do such horrible crimes should spend the rest of their life in prison.

I agree. The problem is that life without parole is nto always life without parole (depanding on the state), and I think those loopholes should be closed.

i have a hard time with my tax dollars paying for them to have a better quality of life than the homeless have

Incarceration and the homeless are two separate issues. However, I don't think cost should be the issue when it comes to appropriate incarceration. It would be a rather sad reflection on society to favor capital punishment simply because it's cheaper to execute than it is to imprison. Now, that being said, it is actually more expensive to execute than it is to incarcerate for life. Not that this changes my personal view.

 

[Roguelet]

canadyjd

I said it before and I will say it again 1 Tim has nothing to do with what you are saying it does. I cannot find any commentary or pastor who agrees with what you say it says. Sorry but this is a fact.

I believe in the Death Penalty because GOD does his word commands it.

Your arguement that people need to get saved therefore we shouldn't kill them is very week. For one God will save who he is going to save regardless of what we do. A man who kills still has to pay for his crimes, he goes to prison, and if he is elected to get saved God will save him before he gets executed and then he goes to heaven. So whats the big deal ????

If a serial killer, serial child molestor or serial rapist who kills gets caught and goes to prison and YOU think he deserves to spend the rest of his life in jail like you said you did. Then if he gets saved what makes you think he will be witnessing to the outside world like you said Osma Bin Laudin would be ? He can witness to those in prison if he wants.

People like Osma Bin Laudin I doubt will be saved, like Hilter, Nero, and other EVIL people in this world. God has allowed certain people to be used by Satan to do his will for whatever reason he sees fit. Wishful thinking on your part.

You my friend are having a very hard time being able to seperate Gods forgiveness from one receiving consequenses for sin. All Christians are forgiven but they still have to pay for their sins on Earth. If you go out and commit adultry God will make sure you will suffer loss and have heartache from your sin. If you rob a bank God will make sure you will be caught and go to jail.

You are not making very much sense when it comes to this issue. SIN = PUNISHMENT Bottom line !
Certain SINS demand a harsher PUNISHMENT. The bible says " eye for eye tooth for tooth "

 

[canadyjd]

Roguelet

I Tim. 1:16 is very clear. You keep saying that it doesn't mean what it clearly says, but you don't offer an alternative meaning. Is that because you don't know what it means, or do you realize what it means and are just refusing to accept it?

I have yet to see you offer even one verse where Jesus, or any Apostle has told us to seek or support the death of anyone. Don't feel bad, I can't find one either.

You are not understanding my arguement very well. I Tim. 1:16 is about a Christian's attitude toward unbelievers. Specifically, toward sinners, even violent sinners like Paul.

It is for our own good that we have "perfect patience" like our Lord Jesus. That is what is pleasing in the sight of God. We are becoming more like Christ.

You don't have to be a Christian to seek the death of someone or to demand punishment for some crime. Only a follower of Christ would see someone enslaved to sin, have genuine compassion and love for that person, and plead with God the Father for their salvation.

One more time. You keep refering to these people as the ones who are "really evil", like Hitler, and Nero. The truth is, we are all "really evil", prior to salvation. If you can't see that, then you will never appreciate the grace you have recieved.

It is unChristlike to seek or support the death of anyone.

 

[Plain Old Bill]

Perhaps some here should study criminal behavior and the justice system.I am sure there is room for improvement.There needs to be a price to pay for criminal behavior.

 

[av1611jim]

If you (society) will not punish murderers with a just recompense for taking life; then it is HIGHLY hypocritical to expect ANY law to be upheld.

jmo

 

[canadyjd]

Originally posted by av1611jim:
If you (society) will not punish murderers with a just recompense for taking life; then it is HIGHLY hypocritical to expect ANY law to be upheld.

jmo

I don't think I have seen a single person say that, as a society, we shouldn't punish someone for committing a crime.

I have consistently said that the death penalty should not be support by Christians. It is unChristlike to do so.

 

[av1611jim]

ummmmm, Lessee now...

Is Christ, God manifested in the flesh or not?
Is He the same yesterday, today and for ever or not?
Did He say "If ye have seen me, you have seen the Father." or not?
Was it God the Father who instituted the death penalty in Genesis (loooong b-4 the Law) or not?

Death penalty is "unChristlike"?

You have GOT to be kidding, right?

UnChristlike? "Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures".

 

[canadyjd]

av1611jim

The death penalty is not instituted in Genesis 9. If you read these verses in context, you would see that there is no "government" mentioned, there is no procedure for determining guilt, no instructions for implementation.

You have a strong statement by God that demonstrates the difference between humans and animals. Animals are given for food, but people are not because we are created in the image of God.

v.3 "Every moving thing that is alive shall be food for you; I give all to you as I gave the green plant.....v.6 "Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man."

This is a general statement concerning the nature of man. This is not an absolute statement concerning the "death penalty". If it were an absolute statement, then every person who ever killed would have been killed in return.

This did not happaen to Cain (prior to the flood), it did not happen to Moses (prior to the Law), it did not happen to David (after the Law), it did not happen to Paul (after the coming of Christ). All were murderers.

I Tim. 1:16 clearly states that Christians should have the same kind of perfect patience concerning unbelivers (even murderers like Paul) that Jesus demonstrated with Paul.

Based on I Tim. 1:16, I can confidently say that it is unChristlike to seek or support the death of anyone.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by Roguelet:


Your arguement that people need to get saved therefore we shouldn't kill them is very week. For one God will save who he is going to save regardless of what we do. A man who kills still has to pay for his crimes, he goes to prison, and if he is elected to get saved God will save him before he gets executed and then he goes to heaven. So whats the big deal ????

I think that the view that God is going to save whom He is going to save and what's the big deal about worrying about the eternal destiny of the lost is a distortion of the scriptures. Why have churches or missionaries? I suppost churches could be social clubs for those who have somehow decided that they are among the elect? I think this belief is one of the major reasons for the decline of the church.

What's the big deal?

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

 

[canadyjd]

Roguelet

Your said
_____
"For one God will save who he is going to save regardless of what we do. A man who kills still has to pay for his crimes, he goes to prison, and if he is elected to get saved God will save him before he gets executed and then he goes to heaven. So whats the big deal ????"
_____

The "big deal" is that it is Christians that are demanding the death of people, despite all of the teachings of our Lord to have a different attitude than the world, we come across as the most blood-thirsty, the most eager for people to die. Why would anyone saved by grace seek or support the death of someone else?

It is Christians that are claiming God wants "those" people dead, as if they have direct knowledge of who Christ will call to salvation and who He will not. As if "those" people were "sinners", "evil at heart", "really evil", but the Christians are not.

Listen to yourself. You were evil at heart!!! Don't you get it. Without Christ, you would have ended up in the same hell as BTK, or Ted Bundy, or Hitler, or Nero.

Why not give every person every second of their natural lives? Why not have the same kind of perfect paitence that Jesus had with Paul and wants us to have as well.

Be like Jesus.

It is unChristlike to seek or support the death of anyone.

 

[Crusader]

Just an observation: If it wasn't for the Romans having a death penalty Christ wouldn't have been able to go to the cross. I'm not using this as a defense for the issue, just saying that if the death penalty is "un-Christ-like" it makes for an interesting paradox.

God's gives us principles to live by in our personal lives, and others that we must live by as a society. If you abduct a child, rape her, torture her, and slit her throat so she can slowly bleed to death, as a society we have to put an end to you. An individual living by God's Word may forgive, but a society governed by law must act in accordance with it.

I don't have to seek or support the death of any person to agree that someone who commits the most heinous crimes should be subject to the greatest penalty.

If a society doesn't protect it's citizens, it's doomed.

 

[canadyjd]

Crusader
You said
_____
"I don't have to seek or support the death of any person to agree that someone who commits the most heinous crimes should be subject to the greatest penalty."
_____

The "greatest penalty" is hell, not death. And Christians should not be seeking to put people there, regardless of what those people do. We should be like Jesus and have "perfect patience".

It is unChristlike to seek or support the death of anyone.

 

[Crusader]

Canady,

Interesting post...

We're discussing the death penalty under the "law of the land" here. No nation or person can send someone else to hell. That is the province of God's judgment, and His alone. If you think a Christian who supports the death penalty for murderers of innocent children is the same as wishing to have people go to hell, then you're in great error and should pray for better discernment.

Let me restate so that you can follow without getting confused:
"The person that commits the most heinous crime UNDER THE LAW should be subject to the greatest penalty UNDER THE LAW." I'm talking about the law of the land, not God's judgment.

Now, try to follow the rest. If you need to, read it more than once and ask questions instead of injecting your own interpretation.

I can support the death penalty and not support the death of any individual, because the law doesn't, and shouldn't, deal with specific individuals. The law is written such that if you commit a certain crime you get a certain punishment. Thus the dogma: "Let the punishment fit the crime".

Don't commit the crime and you won't be punishable under the law. Now, we're not talking about accidentally running off without paying for a tank of gas here. We're talking about individuals who commit the worst crimes thinkable, such as the brutal slaying of innocent children.

I hope this clarifies things for you a little.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

If we take someone's life, for whatever reason, we are taking away their opportunity to hear the gospel and be saved. We are indeed sending them to hell.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

repeated post

 

[Crusader]

We are NOT sending someone to hell by imposing the death penalty. No one can send you to hell. You send yourself.

To believe THAT, then you have to believe that God sends people to hell. God ordained the destruction of Sodom, Gomorrha, all those outside the ark in Noah's day, etc.

Do you claim that Peter sent Ananias and Sapphira to hell in Acts 5:1-10? Satan was in their heart when they lied about giving to the Apostles and were killed for it. Since Satan was in them, they were not saved. So did Peter "send them to hell"? No, they were responsible for their eternal destiny. They received the punishment for their crime. That's it. Don't read anything more into it.

 

[canadyjd]

Crusader

This thread concerns what scripture says about the death penalty, not about "the law of the land". Please don't lecture me about reading the posts, slowly or otherwise, when you don't even know what the thread is about.

If you want to live under the "law of the land", then live like everyone else. If you want to live like Christ, find out what scripture says and adjust you life accordingly.

It is unChristlike to seek or support the death of anyone.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Originally posted by Crusader:
Canady,

...I can support the death penalty and not support the death of any individual...

Here is the problem. This is an "attitude" of acceptance of something that is contrary to the teachings of God found in I Tim 1:16 and elsewhere.

The real benefit goes to Christians who are becoming more Christlike in their views concerning sinners, even the most violent sinners, even murderers (like Paul).

To have the same kind of "perfect patience" as Christ makes us more Christlike in our relationships.

To understand "perfect patience" and practice it in your life will help a Christian appreciate the Grace that God has shown them. If all Christians opposed the death penalty, we could change the laws in this country.

It could very well be part of God's plan to bring many hell-bound sinners into a saving relationship with Jesus. And make Christians more Christlike in their attitudes as well.

peace to you

 

[Crusader]

canadyjd said:
The "greatest penalty" is hell, not death. And Christians should not be seeking to put people there, regardless of what those people do.

You (and Straight in a sense) were inserting into my words things I did not state. Basically telling me because I support the death penalty I want people to go to hell. That offends me. Also, don't question my walk with Christ simply because I take an opposing view to yours. This is a debate. Not all Christians are required to believe as you.

canadyjd said:
If you want to live under the "law of the land", then live like everyone else. If you want to live like Christ, find out what scripture says and adjust you life accordingly.

Living in accordance to the law of the land is not living outside of God's Will. Even if you deny it, you, me, and everyone else are living under the law of the land wherever that may be. If you commit a crime in your community, the officials of the law will seek you out. We are to obey God's Law over that of man's, but to deny the latter is neither wise nor profitable.

canadyjd said:
This thread concerns what scripture says about the death penalty, not about "the law of the land".

A discussion on the death penalty includes the law that will impose it, even a discussion on one's views on it as a Christian. How can you say this does not involve the law? Who/what do you think will impose it on a convicted murderer?


Look, you're obviously very set in your opinion and that is fine with me. As long as you don't condemn others for having a different view.

Just because you claim something to be "un-Christ-like" doesn't mean that it is, except in your opinion. I could just as easily say the same thing of your views. Based upon Christ saying that children are of the Kingdom of God (Mark 10:14) and that whosoever does evil to them is doing it to Christ Himself (Matt. 25:40). Therefore, if you're against the death penalty to deter and punish the killing of children then you're being "un-Christ-like". See what I mean?

BTW, if a serial killer kills several people, then under your logic he is also guilty of sending them to hell (if they weren't saved). One of the functions of the death penalty is as a deterrent. Thus it keeps many other people from being killed and going to hell.

As true believers we are the children of God. Let us not reproach one another unless clearly warranted. God bless.

 

[canadyjd]

Crusader

You said
_____
"Just because you claim something to be "un-Christ-like" doesn't mean that it is, except in your opinion. I could just as easily say the same thing of your views. Based upon Christ saying that children are of the Kingdom of God (Mark 10:14) and that whosoever does evil to them is doing it to Christ Himself (Matt. 25:40). Therefore, if you're against the death penalty to deter and punish the killing of children then you're being "un-Christ-like". See what I mean?"
_____

The difference is that the context of Mark 10:14 and Matt 25:40 does not relate to this issue. The context of I Tim.1:16 is specifically addressing the attitudes believers should have toward all unbelievers, even those who are violent. Nice try.

You said
_____
"Look, you're obviously very set in your opinion and that is fine with me. As long as you don't condemn others for having a different view."
_____

The Christians who support homosexual marriage, women as pastors, and a liberal interpretation of scripture use the same argument that you are using here on the issue of the death penalty.

Be consistent. If you don't want me to expose your views as being inconsistent with scripture, then don't condemn these folks for "having a different view."

BTW, I found your first post to me to be arrogant and condescending. Please forgive me for responding in a like manner to you.

I do believe in "working out your salvation in fear and trembling" and that "iron sharpens iron". We need each other to gain a clear understanding of scripture.

I do my best to keep personal opinions out of it. I seek to understand scripture. That is my focus.

If you have a different interpretation of I Tim. 1:16, then please give it to me and show me how the context supports what you say. I am always open to being wrong.

peace to you