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The Bible confirms in Matthew 1:21b who it is Jesus Gave Himself to Save, as in who He died for and why He died for them.

Alan Dale Gross

Active Member
Sheep are also sacrificed in Scripture. There are many different uses of the word.

I don’t believe that you use all of them accurately.
You follow up your waste of time with the "General vs Specific Argument" saying "There are many different uses of the word",
with your Gratuitious Assersion Fallacy where you take the liberty of assuming gratitude has been extended to you to just make something up and say anything vague, then handing me an empty bluff, when the reverse corollary would be where you have to extend to me the same gratitude, only with my Assertion being that I believe I that I used the word "sheep" accurately, just fine on anyone's scale of gradation.
Nobody asked what you don't believe, or do.
Nobody asked you to condescend down with your determinizing degree, of "I don’t believe that you use all of them accurately."
 

Ben1445

Well-Known Member
As long as we remember that just because "the gospel is to be preached to every man" doesn't mean that we can be sure that it has been, or ever will be, as far as trying to include that we could know every human Being that ever lived has been Preached the Gospel, in the proper sense. We don't. And it may be God's Intension that some never have the Gospel Preached specifiacally to include every person ever born. We don't know.
This really is an oxymoronic statement.
“God told us to do it but we can’t really be sure that He actually meant that He wanted us to really do it.”
Only a hyper-cal can come up with this kind idea.
 

Ben1445

Well-Known Member
The way God Put that in the Teachings of His Eternally Giving Grace to His Chosen Elect is "I Will have Mercy on whom I Will have Mercy" and it is implied in His Bible Doctrines of Grace that, therefore, not all men Receive His Grace, as in Romans 1:24; "Wherefore God also Gave them Up..." Romans 1.

"Doctrines" means "Teachings" of God's Eternal Grace which pretty much covers the subject matter without your indictment in anger against God where you think you need to emphasize what you have determined is unfair by your standards.

That is inconsistent with being in a State of Repentance Toward God isn't it?

And you want to set your Limits up to where you have higher standards than God and would have made it possible for any individual to be Saved if they wanted to be and just Punished Jesus and those who do not agree to go to Heaven, with Duplicate and Double Punishments for the same offences.
Jesus only died once. And it was once for all.
There is no double punishment on Christ. There is only the greater sin and the greater punishment of rejecting the Christ that has been preached to us and in some cases had the benefit of great works. Chorazin and Bethsaida are examples of this.
 

Ben1445

Well-Known Member
Do you really think you know anything about what you call "Calvinism" to believe you could distinguish a "liberty" from it.
Yes. You are not the only person who can understand Calvinism. The last time I knew it was not a secret society. (Correct me if I’m wrong)
I am well aware that you don’t like being called a hyper Calvinist because of your double predestination. It doesn’t really matter if you like it or not. You can’t just make up your own definition of hyper because you don’t like it applied to what you believe.
 

Psalty

Well-Known Member
The way God Put that in the Teachings of His Eternally Giving Grace to His Chosen Elect is "I Will have Mercy on whom I Will have Mercy" and it is implied in His Bible Doctrines of Grace that, therefore, not all men Receive His Grace, as in Romans 1:24; "Wherefore God also Gave them Up..." Romans 1.

"Doctrines" means "Teachings" of God's Eternal Grace which pretty much covers the subject matter without your indictment in anger against God where you think you need to emphasize what you have determined is unfair by your standards.

That is inconsistent with being in a State of Repentance Toward God isn't it?

And you want to set your Limits up to where you have higher standards than God and would have made it possible for any individual to be Saved if they wanted to be and just Punished Jesus and those who do not agree to go to Heaven, with Duplicate and Double Punishments for the same offences.

I appreciate that you follow the dbl predesrination route. I believe that it is the only consistent way to be a calvinist and i thinknyou are miles ahead of the compatibalists for it.

But I think you should bring that out when you talk about it. In your view, Gods grace is not for all and is limited in scope.

I personally disagree and quoted 2 Pet 2:1. I dont thinknyou are accounting for some straightforward verses that would show that Gods doctrine is unlimited Grace.
 

Ben1445

Well-Known Member
The way God Put that in the Teachings of His Eternally Giving Grace to His Chosen Elect is "I Will have Mercy on whom I Will have Mercy" and it is implied in His Bible Doctrines of Grace that, therefore, not all men Receive His Grace, as in Romans 1:24; "Wherefore God also Gave them Up..." Romans 1.

"Doctrines" means "Teachings" of God's Eternal Grace which pretty much covers the subject matter without your indictment in anger against God where you think you need to emphasize what you have determined is unfair by your standards.

That is inconsistent with being in a State of Repentance Toward God isn't it?

And you want to set your Limits up to where you have higher standards than God and would have made it possible for any individual to be Saved if they wanted to be and just Punished Jesus and those who do not agree to go to Heaven, with Duplicate and Double Punishments for the same offences.
Isaiah 40:2

Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her,
that her warfare is accomplished,
that her iniquity is pardoned:
for she hath received of the LORD's hand double for all her sins.
 

Alan Dale Gross

Active Member
I said that you don’t use Scripture accurately in your defense of the limited grace of God.
You defame God by making Him a respecter of persons
selecting some to be gloriously punished
Your word "selecting" brings an unjust indictment against God, in that there is an Infinite difference between "selecting to Damnation" and "not selecting to Eternal Life".

The end result is the same, but the sinner was simply not selected by God by a Positive Decree to Damn them; that is, God didn't Make them a sinner, or Choose to Damn them; their own sin as a sinner made them a sinner Doomed to be Damned to Hell.
You have God glorying in the death of the wicked, something that is strictly against the character of God.
You have yourself questioning God with what you will allow Him to do with what He has Created,

as in Romans 9:19; "Thou wilt say then unto me,
Why doth He yet find fault? For who hath resisted His Will?


20; "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?
Shall the thing Formed say to Him that Formed it, Why hast Thou Made me thus?

21; "Hath not the Potter Power over the clay,

of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?

And it is not the death of the wicked that Shows God's Glory, but it is with the Saved in 9:23;
where "He might Make Known the Riches of His Glory on the Vessels of Mercy,
which He had afore Prepared unto Glory,


compared to the lost where He says He is Showing His Wrath and to Make His Power Known, in 9:22;
"What if God, Willing to Shew His Wrath, and to Make His Power Known,
Endured with much Longsuffering the Vessels of Wrath Fitted to Destruction:",


WHERE, AGAIN, GOD DOES NOT SAY THERE THAT HE FITTED "the Vessels of Wrath Fitted for Destruction", since it is the sinners, by their sins against God, that Fitted themselves to Destruction, making them Vessels of Wrath.


"Say unto them, As I Live, saith the Lord GOD, I have No Pleasure in the death of the wicked;
but that the wicked Turn from his way and Live:
turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O House of Israel?"
Ezekiel 33:11.

Now if you care to dispense with your junior high level retorts, we can discuss the topic at hand.
If you are just interested in roasting users, start a new thread for it.
For you to continually, intentionally, or unintentionally, 'roast' God, and accuse Him of being responsible for the sin of sinners, or that God Actively Decreed the Damnation of a select number from among all the souls of Mankind, when it is the sinner's sin against God as God-Hating sinners that Damns them to Hell, is what I would care to see us dispense with.

God definitely did Positively select some God-Hating sinners who would otherwise been Damned to Hell, to Show Mercy on them, or no one would have ever given up their love of Darkness, nor Come to His Light, and everyone would have Suffered in the Torments of Hell, Forever, and never be able to pay their sin debts against the One and Only, True and Living, Thrice-Holy God, of Eternal Justice.
 

Ascetic X

Well-Known Member
1 John 2:10

He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.




1 Timothy 2

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.




2 Corinthians 5:15

And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
 

Alan Dale Gross

Active Member
Isaiah 40:2

Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her,
that her warfare is accomplished,
that her iniquity is pardoned:
for she hath received of the LORD's hand double for all her sins.
This "double for her sins", as it says below,
must refer to the twofold captivity, in their Temporal Punishment under the Assyrians and the Romans

"double for all her sins"
—This can only, in a very restricted sense, hold good of Judah's restoration after the first captivity. For how can it be said her "warfare was accomplished," when as yet the galling yoke of Antiochus and also of Rome was before them?

"The "double for her sins" must refer to the twofold captivity, the Assyrian and the Roman; at the coming close of this latter dispersion, and then only, can her "iniquity" be said to be "pardoned," or fully expiated [Houbigant].

"It does not mean double as much as she deserved, but ample punishment in her twofold captivity.

"Messiah is the antitypical Israel (compare Mt 2:15, with Ho 11:1).

"He indeed has "received" of sufferings amply enough to expiate "for our sins" (Ro 5:15, 17)."

15;
"But not as the offence, so also is the Free Gift.
For if through the offence of one many be dead,
much more the Grace of God, and the Gift by Grace,
which is by One Man, Jesus Christ, hath Abounded unto many
."

17; "For if by one man's offence death reigned by one;
much more they which Receive Abundance of Grace
and of the Gift of Righteousness Shall Reign in Life by One, Jesus Christ
.)


From: Isaiah 40 Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

But Jesus' Suffering was nothing that could ever be considered God Meeting Out Double-Jeopardy, Punitively, by Punishing Jesus for the Hell a soul would Suffer and also Punish that same sinner in Hell, Forever.

Jerusalem's Temporal Punishment in two captivities was not Double-Jeopardy, but merely ample Punishment they Received.
 

Ben1445

Well-Known Member
For you to continually, intentionally, or unintentionally, 'roast' God, and accuse Him of being responsible for the sin of sinners, or that God Actively Decreed the Damnation of a select number from among all the souls of Mankind, when it is the sinner's sin against God as God-Hating sinners that Damns them to Hell, is what I would care to see us dispense with.
I’m not saying anything against God. I have only questioned your misrepresentations of Him that make Him to sound as if He does not think through His decisions and is therefore not responsible for creating people to destroy them.
It’s just your strange logic that I question.
 

Ben1445

Well-Known Member
This "double for her sins", as it says below,
must refer to the twofold captivity, in their Temporal Punishment under the Assyrians and the Romans

"double for all her sins"
—This can only, in a very restricted sense, hold good of Judah's restoration after the first captivity. For how can it be said her "warfare was accomplished," when as yet the galling yoke of Antiochus and also of Rome was before them?

"The "double for her sins" must refer to the twofold captivity, the Assyrian and the Roman; at the coming close of this latter dispersion, and then only, can her "iniquity" be said to be "pardoned," or fully expiated [Houbigant].

"It does not mean double as much as she deserved, but ample punishment in her twofold captivity.

"Messiah is the antitypical Israel (compare Mt 2:15, with Ho 11:1).


"He indeed has "received" of sufferings amply enough to expiate "for our sins" (Ro 5:15, 17)."

15;
"But not as the offence, so also is the Free Gift.
For if through the offence of one many be dead,
much more the Grace of God, and the Gift by Grace,
which is by One Man, Jesus Christ, hath Abounded unto many
."

17; "For if by one man's offence death reigned by one;
much more they which Receive Abundance of Grace
and of the Gift of Righteousness Shall Reign in Life by One, Jesus Christ
.)


From: Isaiah 40 Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

But Jesus' Suffering was nothing that could ever be considered God Meeting Out Double-Jeopardy, Punitively, by Punishing Jesus for the Hell a soul would Suffer and also Punish that same sinner in Hell, Forever.

Jerusalem's Temporal Punishment in two captivities was not Double-Jeopardy, but merely ample Punishment they Received.
You will always justify your double predestination. It really does not matter how illogical it seems to be.

But God is capable of purchasing salvation for all mankind and meting it out properly.

Often parents will go out and purchase their children an item and never give it to their children because their children are not behaving in a manner that is toward their parents desire.

This does not make the parents unjust or cause some sort of double jeopardy.

By the way, Christ is not and has never been in jeopardy. There is no such thing as double jeopardy in regard to Christ’s death for our sin.
 

Alan Dale Gross

Active Member
"ELECTION IS NOT SALVATION"

"Arminians charge that Unconditional Election means Unconditional Salvation, and that we teach that men were actually Saved in Eternity. Both charges are groundless, for Election is not Salvation. We were Unconditionally Elected in Eternity to a Conditional Salvation in Time.

"And when we speak of Salvation as being Conditional we do not mean that the Salvation of the Elect is in any way fortuitous or uncertain, but only that certain conditions (Repentance and Faith) must be Fulfilled before they come to possess Salvation. A condition is "something that necessarily precedes a result, but does not produce it."

"In Eternity the Salvation of the Elect was Purposed, and the Elect are spoken of in the Purpose of God as Called, Justified, and Glorified (Rom. 8: 29, 30), but this is simply the language of Him, who in His Purpose, "Calleth the things that are not, as though they were" (Rom. 4:17).

"Many passages clearly teach that actual Salvation takes place in Time. For this we strongly contend. We have no patience whatsoever with the theory that the Salvation which takes place in Time is only 'temporal salvation', or 'salvation as it respects this life'.


I appreciate that you follow the dbl predesrination route.
There is no such thing as double predestination.

The Elect are Predestined to Glory, from among the Human Race prior to them having sinned, and while those who remain may be said to have been 'left', or 'rejected', they were simply passed over, and not Positively Predestined to Damnation until they where Guily of their own personal sins.

The Decree of Damnation is the result of the Lord Finding the sinner's in their sin for which they are Responsible, not because they were initially 'Elected' to be Damned. The lost, who remain lost, were not Elected to anything, other than to have not been Elected to Salvation.

"ELECTION AND THE NON-ELECT"

"Election imposes no restraint on the non-Elect. It actively affects them in no way.

"Election leaves the non-Elect in exactly the same condition they would be in if there were no such thing as Election- which is a condition of Spiritual Impotence and Condemnation, such as all sinners are in by Nature.

"An Election of some to Life does not imply an Election of some to Death.

"The Death of the Wicked is not the result of Election, but of God's Just Dealings with them as sinners.

"The Death of the Wicked is their Rightful Wages (Rom. 6:23).

"In Election God simply Chooses Out of the Whole Mass of Depraved Mankind those whom He Pleases to Save for Just and Holy Reasons Known only to Himself.

"The rest He simply Leaves to the Just Consequences of their sin.

"If a rich man chooses out one beggar and gives him wealth,
can it be justly said that in so doing he elects all other beggars to suffer perpetual poverty?

"After reading the foregoing, one asked: "Does not the author believe in Reprobation?"

"The answer is, He most certainly does. And the foregoing is in nowise inconsistent therewith, but rather implicitly affirms Reprobation. The author is in full and happy agreement with Warfield in the following statement concerning Reprobation:

"Were not all men sinners, there might still be an Election, as Sovereign as now;
and there being an Election, there would still be as Sovereign a Rejection;

"BUT THE REJECTION WOULD NOT BE A REJECTION TO PUNISHMENT, OR TO DESTRUCTION, OR TO ETERNAL DEATH.

"BUT TO SOME OTHER DESTINY CONSONANT TO THE STATE IN WHICH THOSE PASSED BY SHOULD BE LEFT.

"It is not indeed, then, because men are sinners that men are Left Unelected;
(BECAUSE THE ELECT WERE ELECTED AND THOSE LEFT WERE NOT CHOSEN IN THE UNBORN STATE WHERE;
"the children being not yet born, neither having done any Good or Evil,
that the Purpose of God According to Election might Stand, not of Works, but of Him that Calleth;")
Election is Free, and its obverse of Rejection is Equally Free;

"BUT IT IS SOLELY BECAUSE MEN ARE SINNERS AFTER THEY ARE SEEN AS HAVING BECOME SINNERS THAT WHAT THEY ARE LEFT TO IS DESTRUCTION"
(Biblical Doctrines, p. 54)."


From: A SYSTEMATIC STUDY OF BIBLE DOCTRINE,
A LOGICAL ARRANGEMENT AND A DILIGENT TREATMENT OF THE TEACHINGS OF GOD'S HOLY WORD.
SYSTEMATIC, CALVANISTIC, BAPTISTIC, PREMILLENNIAL, By THOMAS PAUL SIMMONS.

I believe that it is the only consistent way to be a calvinist
But I think you should bring that out when you talk about it. In your view, Gods grace is not for all and is limited in scope.
"2. The Decree concerning the Rejection of some of the sons of men...

2a. First, I shall prove that there is a Non-Election, or Rejection of some of the sons of men, when others were Chosen; and, indeed, from the Election of some, may fairly be inferred, the Non-Election of others. Common sense tells us, that of persons or things, if some are chosen, others must be left: if there is a Remnant of the sons of men, according to the Election of Grace, then there are others not included in it, which are Left Unchosen, and are called the Rest.

"The Election", that is, Elect men, "hath obtained it", Righteousness and Eternal Life; "and the Rest were Blinded", #Ro 11:5,7. Our Lord says, "I speak not of you all; I Know whom I have Chosen", #Joh 13:18 plainly intimating, that all were not Chosen, and it is certain one was not, and whom He Calls "the son of perdition"; one, not only deserving of it, but Appointed to it; for though Chosen to an office, as an Apostle, yet not to Grace and Glory, #Joh 17:12 and how many such there be, no man can pretend to say; but it is evident there are some, and who are generally described by negative characters; as not known by God and Christ;

"the Elect are God's people, whom He Knows; they are Elect, according to His Foreknowledge; which carries in it Love and Affection to them; but of others Christ says, "I never knew you";

"He Knew them by His Omniscience, but not with such Knowledge as He Knows the Elect of God;
"He never Knew them as the Objects of His Father's Love, and His Own;
"He never Knew them as the Objects of His Father's Choice, and his own;
"He never Knew them in the Gift of His Father to Him, #Mt 7:23

"hence they are represented as "not" Loved, which is meant by being Hated:
"Esau have I hated"; that is, had not loved him, as he had Jacob;
because it cannot be understood of Positive Hatred, for God Hates none of His Creatures, as such, only as Workers of Iniquity;

"but of Negative Hatred, or of not Loving him; which, in comparison of the Love he bore to Jacob, might be called Hatred: in which sense the word is used in #Lu 14:26.

"Moreover, they are spoken of as "not" being Given to Christ; for if there are some that are "Given" to Him "out of the World", then there must be a World which are not Given, and for whom He has not so much Concern as even to Pray for them, #Joh 17:6,9

"they are frequently described, as not having their names Written, and not to be Found Written in the Lamb'sBbook of Life, #Re 13:8 17:8 20:15. Now as Election is signified by the Writing of names in the Book of Life, Non-Election is expressed by not Writing the names of some there; and if those whose names are Written there, are the Elect, then those whose names are not Written these, but are Left Out, must be Non-Elect:

"to which may be added, that our Lord says of these persons, "Ye are not of My sheep", and gives this as a reason why they believed not in Him, #Joh 10:26. But the goats He Will Place on His Left Hand, Pass Sentence of Condemnation on them, and send them into Everlasting Punishment, #Mt 25:33,41,46."
 

Alan Dale Gross

Active Member
I personally disagree and quoted 2 Pet 2:1. I dont thinknyou are accounting for some straightforward verses that would show that Gods doctrine is unlimited Grace.
This Divine Interpretation of such Scriptures as 2 Peter 2:1, which we are certain makes no straightforward reference to
these False Prophets, or Teachers, being 'bought', with regard to anything having to do with the Salvation of their soul, must be viewed within the context of the Bible, and in this case 2 Peter 2:1's companion Scriptures in Exodus 15:16 and Deuteronomy 32:6.

1; "But there were False Prophets also among the people, even as there shall be False Teachers among you,
who privily shall bring in Damnable Heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them,
and bring upon themselves swift destruction,"


In the Bible, the concept of the Lord "Buying" or "Purchasing" His people is a major theme,
most notably in the book of Exodus.

The "Purchase" in Exodus.

The Lord redeemed or "bought back" the Nation of Israel from slavery in Egypt in two primary ways:
  • The Passover and Firstborns: During the Passover, God Spared the Firstborn sons of Israel by Requiring the Blood of a Perfect Lamb to be placed on their doorframes. Because He Saved them from the final plague, every Firstborn Israelite and their livestock were claimed by and owed to God, requiring them to be consecrated (or "bought back") to Him.
  • The Red Sea & The Price of Judgment: Israel was the economic property of Egypt, but God Purchased them with an "Iron Price". He Paid for their Freedom by Dismantling Egypt’s economy and Striking Down Egypt's Firstborns, followed by the dramatic Deliverance at the Red Sea.
Old Testament References.

This foundational event is explicitly celebrated in Exodus 15:16, where the Israelites sing:

"Terror and dread fall upon them; because of the Greatness of Your Arm, they are as still as a stone,
until Your people, O Lord, pass by, until the people Pass By whom you have Purchased."


Later in the Old Testament, Moses reiterates this concept in Deuteronomy 32:6, asking:

"Do you thus repay the Lord, O foolish and senseless people?
Is not He your Father, Who Created you, Who Made you and Established you?"


"New Testament Reflection".

This idea from Exodus directly shapes the New Testament understanding of how all the Jewish descendants of those Israelites Delivered from Egypt were also privileged to be experiencing that Deliverance, where God had Purchased them in that sense from the Egyptians.

When the Apostle Peter warns against False Teachers in 2 Peter 2:1, he references God’s Ownership of His people by describing them as "denying the Lord Who bought them", drawing a parallel between Israel's Deliverance and how these False Teachers were denying the One Who had Delivered them from still being in bondage also to the Egyptian's when He Delivered all their Israelite forefathers from the Egyptians.

Then, the idea may be readily seen in Scripture where God's Grace is not Available as if in an 'unlimited sense'.

"Moreover, from the effects of Election not having Place in some persons, it may be concluded, that there are such who are Non-Elect. The Effectual Calling is a certain Fruit and Effect of Election; "Whom He did Predestinate, them He also Called", #Ro 8:30 not only Called Externally, but Called Internally, Spiritually, with an Holy and Heavenly Calling, to Grace here, and Glory Hereafter.

"But are all called in this manner?

"No; there are some who have not so much as had the Outward Call by the Ministry of the Word, and have not even had the External Means of Grace of having had the Gospel Preached to them that we know of; but as they sin without Law, perish without the Law, #Ro 10:14 2:12.

"Those who are Chosen, are Predestinated to be Conformed to the Image of Christ; they are Chosen to Holiness, and through Sanctification of the Spirit.

"But are all Made Like to Christ, and Conformed to His Image?

"Do not many bear the image of Satan, imitate him, and do his lusts?

Are all men Made Holy, or have they the Sanctification of the Spirit?

"Whom God Predestinates He Justifies, by the Righteousness of His Son.

"But are all men justified?

"No; for though He Justifies some of all sorts and Nations; as the circumcised Jews by Faith, and the uncircumcised Gentiles through Faith, yet not every individual; yea, there is a World that will be Condemned, and consequently they were not Predestinated to Life, #1Co 11:32.

"They that are Chosen, are Predestinated to the Adoption of children, and enjoy both the Grace and Inheritance of children.

"But are all children and Heirs?

"Is there not such a distinction among men, as children of God, and children of the devil;
between whom there is, and will be, an Eternal difference? #1Jo 3:10
and therefore there must be an Election, and a non-election among them.

"Moreover, whom God has Predestinated, or Chosen to Life and happiness, these He Glorifies, #Ro 8:30
they Obtain the Glory of Christ, which His Father has Given Him for them,
and to which they are Chosen and Called, #Joh 17:22 2Th 2:13,14.

"But are all Glorified?


"Do not some go into Perdition, even into Everlasting Punishment?
and therefore must be considered as Non-Elect, #Re 17:8 Mt 25:46.

"To all which may be added, that those that are Given to Christ, which is but another phrase for being Chosen in Him;
these, He says, shall Come to Him, and He Will in No Wise Cast them Out;
yea, that they are His sheep, whom He Must Bring to His Father, to Himself, to His Fold, to Grace and Glory, #Joh 6:37 10:16.

"But are there not some whom Christ Will Drive Away from Him, and to then, say,

"Depart from Me, ye Cursed into Everlasting Fire", #Mt 7:23 25:41.


"All this put together most clearly and fully proves, that there are some who are not Chosen of God, but Rejected by Him."


And that God has no 'doctrine is unlimited Grace' that pertains to all the individual souls of Mankind, but that His Grace, although it is Unlimited in its Essence for those to whom God's Grace is Directed, His Grace is not Directed to everyone without exception, but in that sense is strictly limited to who He says it is, His Elect.
 

Alan Dale Gross

Active Member
I have only questioned your misrepresentations of Him that make Him to sound as if He does not think through His decisions and is therefore not responsible for creating people to destroy them.
God Created Angels who chose to Fall into sin against Him and when He Created Adam, God Made him mutable and Chose not to Confirm him in his State of Sinless Innocence.

God Created Angels and they sinned against Him and will Suffer the Consequences.

God did not Choose to Provide a Means of Redemption for the Angels who left their First Estate,

God Created man and he (they) sinned against Him and will Suffer the Consequences.

However, God did Choose by an Act of His Will, According to the Good Pleasure of His Own Will, without asking you or me, to Provide a Lamb in the Person of His Son, to Give His Son's body and soul as a Sacrifice for the sin for some of the souls out of Mankind in its entirety, so that they could be with The Triune Godhead where they are throughout all Eternity, out of His Pure Infinite Love and Mercy.

That is the Story of the Creation of man, their Fall, and Redemption Provided for those from among all tongues, tribes, and Nations, in spite of their being in a Natural State after the Fall of Adam, as nothing but a God-Hating Creature, with Enmity in their mind against God, whose bodies and souls were only capable of sinning and further Offending God's Holiness, had God not Taken the Initiative and Intervened in the Person of His Son, Jesus Christ the Savior, for "many".


It’s just your strange logic that I question.
"For after that in the Wisdom of God the World by wisdom knew not God,
it Pleased God by the foolishness of Preaching to save them that believe,"
I Corinthians 1:21.


I’m not saying anything against God.
You say that you disagree where I supposedly am saying, "God does not think through His decisions and is therefore not responsible for creating people to destroy them", however, God's Decision was to Create Adam and among Adam's offspring there have been and will be innumerable souls who eventually Suffer in the Lake of Fire that was Created for the Devil and his Angels, WHILE in Eternity Past LONG BEFORE Adam was in the Garden sinning against Him, God had already Provided a Lamb, as a Lamb Slain from the Foundation of the World.

God Knew what He was Doing.

God is not a sinner as you would have me believe that He is Responsible for Creating people to Destroy them.

Sinners are responsible for their sins and they need a Savior, many of whom, and probably most of whom, will cry to this day, "GIVE US BARABBAS!!!" and Spend Eternity in Hell, as the result.
 

Ben1445

Well-Known Member
God Created Angels who chose to Fall into sin against Him and when He Created Adam, God Made him mutable and Chose not to Confirm him in his State of Sinless Innocence.

God Created Angels and they sinned against Him and will Suffer the Consequences.

God did not Choose to Provide a Means of Redemption for the Angels who left their First Estate,
That is exactly the point. Salvation was never provided for them.

God Created man and he (they) sinned against Him and will Suffer the Consequences.

However, God did Choose by an Act of His Will, According to the Good Pleasure of His Own Will, without asking you or me, to Provide a Lamb in the Person of His Son, to Give His Son's body and soul as a Sacrifice for the sin for some of the souls out of Mankind in its entirety, so that they could be with The Triune Godhead where they are throughout all Eternity, out of His Pure Infinite Love and Mercy.
And He does so without respect of persons. There are not any who have been passed by before they were born, which could only not be double predestination in an illogical way.

That is the Story of the Creation of man, their Fall, and Redemption Provided for those from among all tongues, tribes, and Nations, in spite of their being in a Natural State after the Fall of Adam, as nothing but a God-Hating Creature, with Enmity in their mind against God, whose bodies and souls were only capable of sinning and further Offending God's Holiness, had God not Taken the Initiative and Intervened in the Person of His Son, Jesus Christ the Savior, for "many".
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of allmen, specially of those that believe.


It’s all a direct Scripture quote, but I color coded for you to bring emphasis to the fact that Christ is the Saviour of all men.


"For after that in the Wisdom of God the World by wisdom knew not God,
it Pleased God by the foolishness of Preaching to save them that believe,"
I Corinthians 1:21.
And so I preach and you call it foolishness.

Your proof texts are not exclusively yours.

You say that you disagree where I supposedly am saying, "God does not think through His decisions and is therefore not responsible for creating people to destroy them", however, God's Decision was to Create Adam and among Adam's offspring there have been and will be innumerable souls who eventually Suffer in the Lake of Fire that was Created for the Devil and his Angels, WHILE in Eternity Past LONG BEFORE Adam was in the Garden sinning against Him, God had already Provided a Lamb, as a Lamb Slain from the Foundation of the World.
God is the giver of life. There is no life at any time that is born that has not come from God.

Psalms 127:3
Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD:
and the fruit of the womb is his reward.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

You throw out determinist and deist beliefs whenever it is convenient for you.
What you have proposed is determinism for the “elect” and deism for the damned. You present an unequal picture of God.

God Knew what He was Doing.
Except when you say He just wasn’t thinking about what would happen to those He passes by. Otherwise it is double predestination.

God is not a sinner as you would have me believe that He is Responsible for Creating people to Destroy them.
It is your belief that makes Him appear to be.

That God offers salvation to all makes man the sinner.

Sinners are responsible for their sins and they need a Savior, many of whom, and probably most of whom, will cry to this day, "GIVE US BARABBAS!!!" and Spend Eternity in Hell, as the result.
There is no doubt that sinners are responsible for their sin. But God has said that he is rich in mercy. He does not say He is stingy with mercy.
 

Alan Dale Gross

Active Member
And speaking of cheap shots… you are guilty of exactly what you claim to be upset about.

I have not bragged on my ignorance. I said that you don’t use Scripture accurately in your defense of the limited grace of God.
"One of the most difficult and detested Doctrines in the Bible is The Doctrine of Reprobation.

"However, it is not appropriate for us to reject this Truth merely on account of our own reasons.

"A True Preacher of God must teach the Whole Truth of God despite much opposition, because that is the duty of those Truly called by God as His Faithful Servants.

"Therefore, let us study and give attention to this Truth concerning the doctrine of Reprobation as Recorded in Holy Scripture.

"The Eye Sees Only That Which It Brings With It The Power Of Seeing.” — Cicero .

“Open Thou Mine Eyes, That I May Behold Wondrous Things Out Of Thy Law.” — Psalm 119:18.

“For With Thee Is The Fountain Of Life: In Thy Light Shall We See Light.” — Psalm 36:9.

“For We Know In Part, And We Prophesy In Part; But When


That Which Is Perfect Is Come, That Which Is In Part Shall Be
Done Away.” — 1 Corinthians 13:9, 10

Another thread: The Doctrine of Reprobation.

 

Alan Dale Gross

Active Member
And He does so without respect of persons.
God was no respecter of persons when "the children being not yet born, neither having done any Good or Evil, that the Purpose of God According to Election might Stand...", issued out into one of them being Chosen and the other left.
There are not any who have been passed by before they were born,
Actually the Bible says, "the children being not yet born, neither having done any Good or Evil, that the Purpose of God According to Election might Stand...", at which time it is implying that the Purpose of God was the Election of Jacob, as opposed to His Purpose including the non-Election of Esau.
It’s all a direct Scripture quote, but I color coded for you to bring emphasis to the fact that Christ is the Saviour of all men.
SECTION XLVI.

"For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the Living God,
Who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe."
- 1 Timothy 4:10


"These words stand among others, which are said to contain, in express terms, the Doctrine of General Redemption.

"But, 1. If these words represent God, as the Savior of all men, in the sense of a Spiritual and Eternal Salvation, they prove more than any,... a Universal Salvation.

"To say that Christ is the Savior of all men, with respect to the Impetration of Salvation for them, though not with respect to the application of it to them all, is a distinction which must, in part, make the death of Christ in vain;

"nor can a mere possibility of Salvation, nor a conditional one, nor a putting of men into a 'Salvable State', be intended; because then they that believe, would be only in such a precarious and uncertain state; whereas, on the other hand, it is Eternally certain that he that believeth shall be saved.

"Besides, if God is the Savior of 'all men', in the sense of Eternal Salvation, then He must be the Savior of unbelievers, contrary to many express passages of Scripture;

such as John 3:18,19,36, "He that believeth on Him is not Condemned:
but he that believeth not is Condemned already,
because he hath not believed in the Name of the Only Begotten Son of God.

19; "And this is the Condemnation, that Light is Come into the World,
and men loved Darkness rather than Light, because their deeds were Evil."


36; "He that believeth on the Son hath Everlasting Life:
and he that believeth not the Son shall not see Life; but the Wrath of God Abideth on him."


Mark 16:16; "He that believeth and is baptized shall be Saved; but he that believeth not shall be Damned."

Rev. 21:8; "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers,

and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars,
shall have their part in the Lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the Second Death."

"2. The words are to be understood of the Providential Goodness and Temporal Salvation; which 'all men' have a share in, more or less, God the Father and not Christ, is here called the Living God, Who is the Savior of 'all men', that is, the Preserver of 'all men'; and He is a God Who Supports them in their Being, and Supplies them with all the necessaries of life, and especially them that believe, who are the Particular Care of His Providence;

Where, although "He is 'good', and does 'good' to 'all men ', in His Providential Goodness and Temporal Salvation, yet more especially to the Household of Faith; which was the foundation. Of the Apostles’ trust in Him, under all their labors and reproaches, which attended the Preaching of the Gospel. Which sense of the words is perfectly agreeable both to the Analogy of Faith, and to the context, and is owned by some who are on the other side of the question."

The Cause of God and Truth, Part I, by John Gill, D.D.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of allmen, specially of those that believe.
We might as well see Psalm 17:7 and what it has to say in Bible context;

"Shew Thy Marvellous Lovingkindness,
O Thou that Savest by Thy Right Hand them which put their trust in Thee
from those that rise up against them."


"Who is the Saviour of all men"; in a Providential Way, Giving them Being and Breath, Upholding them in their Beings, Preserving their lives, and Indulging them with the Blessings and Mercies of life; for that He is the Savior of 'all men', WHILE: with a Spiritual and Everlasting Salvation, is not true in fact.

"Specially of those that believe; whom though He Saves with an Eternal Salvation;
yet He is not speaking of that here, but of a Temporal 'Salvation', and that is how the words to be understood: or as there is a General Providence, which attends 'all Mankind', there is a SPECIAL PROVIDENCE which relates to the Elect of God; these Elect are regarded in Providence, and are particularly 'Saved' and Preserved before Conversion, in order to be Called; and after Conversion, after they are Brought to believe in Christ, they are Preserved from many enemies, and areDdelivered out of many afflictions and temptations; and are the Peculiar Care and darlings of Providence, being to God as the Apple of His Eye:

"and there is a great deal of reason to believe this, for if He is the Temperal 'Saviour' of 'all men' in General Providence, then much more of them who are of more worth, value, and esteem with Him, than all the World beside; and if they are Saved by Him with the Greater SPIRITUAL Salvation IN SPECIAL PROVIDENCE, then much more are the 'Saved' by God as their Temperal 'Savior' in General Providence, as He is the common Savior in Temperal Providence of all men, and especially of saints, whom He 'Saves' both ways, then there is great reason to Trust in Him for the Fulfilment of the Promises of Life, Temporal and Eternal, made to Godliness, and Godly persons. This epithet of God seems to be taken out of Psalm 17:7 whereHhe is called , "the Saviour of them that trust", or believe.

And so I preach and you call it foolishness.
It is foolishness to preach that God is the Eternal Savior of all men without exception
and yet God is ALSO NOT the Eternal Savior of all men.
 
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