The Bible & debt

[freeatlast]

My bad, there FAL. I thought you said the following.

I would add that bankruptcy is usually sin. Perhaps I did skip over your word..., "usually sin", but I did respond with..., "Please don't make a blanket statement that BankRuptcy is a sin across the board. It isn't." So may I ask what you mean by, usually? If an otherwise responsible person declares bankruptcy out of necessity would that be....

Let me share this with you freeatlast. My wife and I worked our entire life. We raised three kids and ended up with four grand kids of which we had to raise..., for 10 years. We sent our grand kids to Christian School for those 10 years, had to bail out two of our children on occasion (with one facing legal woes) and put the third child through College who graduated without owing a dime.

After all the smoke cleared and I retired..., WE WERE FORCED INTO BANKRUPTCY. Been there and done that. Am I necessary proud of what we had to do? Not really but for sure..., my wife and I are Free At Last from hounding bill collectors who were relentless. I suppose that after a review of our life one (perhaps you) could conclude that yes..., we didn't make the right choices in that we spent it all on the kids.

Out of the four grand kids..., we only hear from them when they want something. Three of them are still in High School. The eldest has one child with another on the way. Perhaps and her tattooed boy friend will get married some day but we'll just wait and see. My son, now 41 is finally getting his life straight; one daughter now 39, works for the State; the one who graduated from College, now 31, has a phobia about driving so we still have to take her every place she goes and refuses to seek help with her fears. It's amazing.

So, in answer to your question, "Do you approach the word of God the same way you did my post..."? No, the Word of God is infallible.

Sometimes, FAL, people, even including believers, find themselves in positions they just can't get out of. Hence, my statement in an earlier post about discovering just how strong your faith is after you Run Out Of Money. It often seems like those with the most faith have the most money..., or so that's their outward appearance.

You asked; "what you mean by, usually" that answer is in the post as well, but I will repeat it a little differently. First our bad judgment to get into debt and our hard times afterwards is not the fault of the lender. How would you like to have someone file against you and you be the loser because of their problems? Most debt comes from not being good stewards or coveting. There are some times such as unexpected medical bills, fires, and such that cannot be totally planned for, but those too should be paid even if it takes a life time.


We as Christians are to pay our debt. Not pay them until things get tough, but pay them all even if bankruptcy is used we still should to pay them as we have vowed a vow to pay. The bankruptcy should only be used to get some breathing room so as payment can be done at a pace we can live with, not so we can escape the debt we have made.
So if bankruptcy becomes necessary we should contact the creditor after the ruling and ask pay for any loses they have realized but at a rate that we can accomplish. This needs to be done very carefully as setting it up incorrectly can void the bankruptcy judgment and put you in deeper water.

 

[HAMel]

We as Christians are to pay our debt. Not pay them until things get tough, but pay them all even if bankruptcy is used we still should to pay them as we have vowed a vow to pay. The bankruptcy should only be used to get some breathing room so as payment can be done at a pace we can live with, not so we can escape the debt we have made.
So if bankruptcy becomes necessary we should contact the creditor after the ruling and ask pay for any loses they have realized but at a rate that we can accomplish. This needs to be done very carefully as setting it up incorrectly can void the bankruptcy judgment and put you in deeper water.

Well, I'm not going to argue with you about it. Should you ever be faced with a similar situation as my wife and I faced, then you will probably change your position on the matter. In fact, my wife and I paid our bills faithfully from our marriage in 1965 until 2008. Us filing bankruptcy was not to beat out the lenders.

So all I will say is that until you have walked in our shoes...

 

[freeatlast]

We as Christians are to pay our debt. Not pay them until things get tough, but pay them all even if bankruptcy is used we still should to pay them as we have vowed a vow to pay. The bankruptcy should only be used to get some breathing room so as payment can be done at a pace we can live with, not so we can escape the debt we have made.
So if bankruptcy becomes necessary we should contact the creditor after the ruling and ask pay for any loses they have realized but at a rate that we can accomplish. This needs to be done very carefully as setting it up incorrectly can void the bankruptcy judgment and put you in deeper water.

Well, I'm not going to argue with you about it. Should you ever be faced with a similar situation as my wife and I faced, then you will probably change your position on the matter. In fact, my wife and I paid our bills faithfully from our marriage in 1965 until 2008. Us filing bankruptcy was not to beat out the lenders.

So all I will say is that until you have walked in our shoes...

No as I have been there and it is not an opinion without scriptural support. Some people rob banks and some people rob their creditors. One does it with a gun an one with the governments support.

 

[HAMel]

Some people rob banks and some people rob their creditors. One does it with a gun an one with the governments support.

...wow!!!

A real congenial approach there, huh? "Some rob banks with a gun..., some rob creditors with government support."

You know what comes to mind after reading your posting? Matthew 7:5

"Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."

I guess that all I can do is strive to be as good as you are when I grow up.

 

[freeatlast]

Some people rob banks and some people rob their creditors. One does it with a gun an one with the governments support.

...wow!!!

A real congenial approach there, huh? "Some rob banks with a gun..., some rob creditors with government support."

You know what comes to mind after reading your posting? Matthew 7:5

"Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."

I guess that all I can do is strive to be as good as you are when I grow up.

That is the standard reply of someone who hates truth and loves to have their ears tickled.

 

[HAMel]

That is the standard reply of someone who hates truth and loves to have their ears tickled.

So what makes you think I "hate" truth? You think it..., therefore it is?

Speaking of truth, would you share with me our Lord's instruction on dealing with others? You know, ones attitude, demeanor, etc., toward other believers? Like in Matt 7:12, "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." Is this a truth? Needless to say there are many more scriptures I'm sure you could locate and pass along to me.

 

[humblethinker]

That is the standard reply of someone who hates truth and loves to have their ears tickled.

Really?.... wow...

 

[Arbo]

That is the standard reply of someone who hates truth and loves to have their ears tickled.

Nice.....

 

[corndogggy]

I knew a man who in 1962 bought a new home that cost a whopping $13,500 dollars back then. For some reason he financed this home for 30 years. His payments were right at $125.00 a month...for 30 years. At the end of 30 years he had paid well over $125,000.00 for that home.

Somebody doesn't know about basic math.

First of all, $125 x 12 months x 30 years = $45,000.

Secondly, to get at $125 a month, the interest rate would have to be pretty high... even if you financed the whole thing it would have to be 9.3%, but if you put something down it would be even higher, yet in 1962, it was very low, averaging at 5.8%. Financing the whole thing at 5.8% is $93 a month, which is about $33,500 if stretched over 30 years.

Basically, your buddy didn't pay anywhere near $125,000 for that house unless he racked up other bills and refinanced it multiple times, there's more to this story than you make it sound like.

 

[Thousand Hills]

Running out of money; going belly-up financially; sinking in debt; will expose one to just how strong their "faith" is. For way too many, as long as the money is coming in their "faith" is as strong as steel but should the money run out..., oh my. It's a whole different ball game at this point.

Christians need to really consider their buying habits bounced against the Word. We don't need a third of everything we buy and I consider going into debt to the point of no return, as being a sin. What fools we are!

Good topic and it needs to be preached in every church in this country of ours.

Good thread until it digressed, I appreciate this point Hamel was making earlier. I recently had some unexpected expenses come up (car repairs, etc.) to the tune of about $2,500. Things are tight for us right now, due to overextending ourselves somewhat and "plans" made 2 years ago not working out like we thought. We are nowhere near bankruptcy or anything like that but I still get frustrated when things don't work out like "I" planned, I've had to repent of my unbelief in God's ability to provide, and look at it that he allowed these things to happen so that I would put trust in him not what little I've set back in a savings account or my abilities. He has always been faithful to provide, but we must be good stewards of what he has given us (its all his anyways).

 

[HAMel]

Somebody doesn't know about basic math.

First of all, $125 x 12 months x 30 years = $45,000.

corndogggy, I am far from that of a mathematician myself however, one must consider the various ways that interest is assigned.

If you finance through a Credit Union one pays an interest rate compounded against THE UNPAID BALANCE. Hence, every time you make a payment the interest rates drops. In the end one pays less dealing with a Credit Union than they would a bank. Use a Credit Union if at all possible.

Then, there's Compound Interest wherein interest is added to the principal, so that from that moment on, the interest that has been added also itself earns interest.

Then, consider Simple Interest which is calculated on against/toward the original principal only. Accumulated interest from prior periods is not used in calculations for the following periods. Simple interest is normally used for a single period of less than a year, such as 30 or 60 days.

Some interest is compounded daily. Some monthly. As in the case of perhaps farmers, interest can be determined and in need of paying off after the reaping season, but I don't know how this works.

Financing a Home.

Let's say you borrowed $100,000 to buy a house at a high interest rate, of 9%, for 30 years. To find the interest we owe for the first month, first we take 9% of the $100,000 balance, which is $9,000. Then we divide by 12 because there are 12 months in a year and you're paying interest only for that month. So $9,000 ÷ 12 = $750. That's how much interest you pay in the first month. The total payment on your loan is $805, so $750 goes towards interest, and only $55 goes towards principal -- meaning only $55 goes towards paying back the $100,000 you borrowed. After four monthly payments of $805, you've paid $3,220 total, but you've only paid down your loan by $222.65! After 15 years you don't own half your home. You own only about 25% of it. You don't own half of it until about year 22.
Follow this link: http://michaelbluejay.com/house/interest.html

Finance Companies charge as high as 72% a year. You never use a Finance Company like Household Finance. They are ripoff's.

Check it out.

 

[HAMel]

Thousand Hills, thank you for your insights.

You would be amazed at what the Lord has shown "us" and how we have grown and come to understand "things" we never realized as a result of filing bankruptcy. For sure the Lord has been with "us" every step of the way. I couldn't begin to tell you the "moments of truth" we have witnessed.

I an now able to say that the reason "we" ended up in the financial shape that we did was because our "faith" was in our bank account and not in the Lord. We were back-sliders and for sure, PRIDE comes before a fall.

So, to get our attention the Lord removed our stumbling block. I mean, how simple can that be? The Lord did us a favor...vice insinuating that we were comparable to bank robbers.

Truth be known there are perhaps many who post on this forum board who have had to resort to bankruptcy but they won't admit it because they consider the action a cowardly way out and fear the "stigma" not to mention they simply don't want to put up with the brow beating from others, such as I was subjected to. Course, it is a personal matter but growth comes from confessions, right?

Anyway, the Lord is blessing us again and I've assured Him that we will keep our FAITH in the right place should He decide to bless us as we were a few years ago. I'll let you know if He does.

 

[percho]

From a pre mil concept what will happen to debt at the return of Christ?

 

[corndogggy]

Somebody doesn't know about basic math.

First of all, $125 x 12 months x 30 years = $45,000.

corndogggy, I am far from that of a mathematician myself however, one must consider the various ways that interest is assigned.

If you finance through a Credit Union one pays an interest rate compounded against THE UNPAID BALANCE. Hence, every time you make a payment the interest rates drops. In the end one pays less dealing with a Credit Union than they would a bank. Use a Credit Union if at all possible.

Then, there's Compound Interest wherein interest is added to the principal, so that from that moment on, the interest that has been added also itself earns interest.

Then, consider Simple Interest which is calculated on against/toward the original principal only. Accumulated interest from prior periods is not used in calculations for the following periods. Simple interest is normally used for a single period of less than a year, such as 30 or 60 days.

Some interest is compounded daily. Some monthly. As in the case of perhaps farmers, interest can be determined and in need of paying off after the reaping season, but I don't know how this works.

Financing a Home.

Let's say you borrowed $100,000 to buy a house at a high interest rate, of 9%, for 30 years. To find the interest we owe for the first month, first we take 9% of the $100,000 balance, which is $9,000. Then we divide by 12 because there are 12 months in a year and you're paying interest only for that month. So $9,000 ÷ 12 = $750. That's how much interest you pay in the first month. The total payment on your loan is $805, so $750 goes towards interest, and only $55 goes towards principal -- meaning only $55 goes towards paying back the $100,000 you borrowed. After four monthly payments of $805, you've paid $3,220 total, but you've only paid down your loan by $222.65! After 15 years you don't own half your home. You own only about 25% of it. You don't own half of it until about year 22.
Follow this link: http://michaelbluejay.com/house/interest.html

Finance Companies charge as high as 72% a year. You never use a Finance Company like Household Finance. They are ripoff's.

Check it out.

Well, yes that's mostly true... the bottom part that you copied at least. You're mixing things up a little up top and confusing yourself, but regardless, none of this would make a $13,500 house cost anywhere near $125,000. I am not using simple interest when I make that statement, that's considering compound interest with easily available mortgage calculators.

Basically your initial math is impossible. For a $13,500 home to end up costing $125,000 your interest rate would have to be about 30%, which has never happened, especially not in 1962. Even if this were the case, your payments per month would be about $350 per month. Doesn't really matter how the interest is calculated or what interest rate he had, you simply cannot have $125 a month payments for 30 years and have that add up to $125,000. That's simple third grade math, nothing complicated at all.

 

[HAMel]

Well, yes that's mostly true... the bottom part that you copied at least. You're mixing things up a little up top and confusing yourself, but regardless, none of this would make a $13,500 house cost anywhere near $125,000. I am not using simple interest when I make that statement, that's considering compound interest with easily available mortgage calculators.

Basically your initial math is impossible. For a $13,500 home to end up costing $125,000 your interest rate would have to be about 30%, which has never happened, especially not in 1962. Even if this were the case, your payments per month would be about $350 per month. Doesn't really matter how the interest is calculated or what interest rate he had, you simply cannot have $125 a month payments for 30 years and have that add up to $125,000. That's simple third grade math, nothing complicated at all.

So be it then. Yes, 125 grand is a bit steep. You win. Not 125 grand as I proposed.

In all reality the intent was to emphasize the exorbitant amount of interest charged to those who finance. Business practices back in 1962 were a far cry from today's motivator which equates to pure greed. As in this case if one financed 13,500 for 30 years with a monthly installment of 125.00 the total would be 45,000, a total interest of 31,500 for the lender or, three and one half times the original price of the home.